What led to the failure of project Azm?

[LegionnairE]

Iran can make F5 clones all day long but when they tried to design their own fighter aircraft this is what they came up with:

can Pakistan design something better? sure but what's the point?

It's extremely difficult and tremendeously expensive to design and build your own fighter aircraft without any outside help.

Pakistan should focus on things that make money.

 

[RIP Pak LAW]

Something to think about:
Once JF-17 Block 3 numbers are produced most of PAC AMF is going to be idle. It is a huge setup and the PAF really really wants it not to sit idle in a couple of years.

A few people (including the airchief at that time) thought the solution to this problem (being a solution to the future fighter problem too) was to develop our own FGFA. I am sorry to say this but these folks were out of touch with reality. There was this other person too that still believes (or at least tells everyone that he does) that FGFA was a realistic goal for PAF.

To develop an aircraft is a herculean task. Remember Pakistan did NOT develop the JF-17, it only manufactures it. It takes a LOT of expertise in engineering and a tonne of huge facilities to develop and certify an aircraft. Its a ridiculously expensive and labour intensive process that no way Pakistan could afford for the JF-17 or any other aircraft.

Then, the design of an aircraft - especially a modern aircraft - is so utterly complex and multidimensional that it takes thousands of experts to even begin a design. Remember, I am only talking about design - not development, which is when you do structural tests and certifications and what not.

Now what did PAF have? A handful of PhDs in aerodynamics and structures maybe. And just because these people have PhDs does not mean that they are the right people. These are PAF officers with PhDs that have gotten PhDs at some points during their careers. Their "real-world" experience is aircraft maintenance of PAF fighters and their overhaul and teaching students at CAE Risalpur. This does NOT qualify them to design and build aircraft. A PhD at lockheed martin who has worked his entire life on F-16s and F-18s design and development is not the same as some PAF PhD teaching undergraduate classes at CAE. What industry do we have to train the workforce for an aircraft program???

So what was Azm? It was a conceptual design. This means that its shape was being finalized with some very very basic ideas of subsystems. Since you can do CFD with computers and dont need much investment or skill, that's all AvRID was doing. CFD and CFD and CFD. And that's all we saw. It looks cool in pictures and videos and the forum was impressed. I told you guys last year that they hadn't done a single wind tunnel test.

And obviously an aircraft is not just aerodynamics. It's structures, it's fuel systems, it's hydraulics, its radars, its ECM, its sensors, its sensor fusion, its electronics, its power electronics, its materials, its composites, its manufacturing design, the list is huge. You need subject matter experts on hundreds of fields and then they need to have teams of their own. Not some PAF Babus with inflated egos because they have PhDs and the sum of their experience is teaching undergraduate courses in Pakistan.

I have seen Azm. I have seen what Azm is right now. Very closely. It would not be too inaccurate to liken it to the Agha Waqar waterkit story. People who were either evil or delusional or both were taking a naive nation on a ride.


If you want to see how you build a fighter aircraft look at Turkish Aerospace. Look how many years they spent developing facilities. Worked on actual aircraft programs like the F-16, A-400M, C-130, S-70. They developed huge facilities for certification. They integrated themselves into international supply chains. PAC Kamra is a joke in front of Turkish Aerospace. PAC Kamra has no relationships with the world and has to smuggle (for lack of a better word) half their inputs. TA spent decades developing skills and manpower in a SUSTAINABLE manner - that is they always had the next 2 or 3 projects lined up for their engineers to work on. They went from strength to strength. They started with Hurkus. We just bought Saab Safari and have done an abysmal amount of work on it considering the time weve had it for. They then worked on Hurjet. We had the K8 and just did nothing with it. Now they are working on TFX and we had the shitshow that was Azm. You can almost make a one-to-one comparison on what to do and what not to do.

Anyway, this rant is long enough already. It's just that "afsos hota hai yaar" - because I'm here picking up the pieces of the practical joke on Pakistan that was Azm.



Guess what the latest thinking is? Remember that issue with the AMF going dormant? Now they are trying by hook and crook to get the TFX to use AMF in some capacity. The good thing about this interaction of PAC and TA is that PAF will realize how outdated they are and how their hubris doesn't align at all with their capacity. I hope PAC gets it what it wants. I don't want it to lose the last chance they have to catch up with the real world.

Well 99% of the folks on this forum always believed from day first that Project Azm will always be J31 or TFX. Most we could do is to assemble these planes in Pakistan or perhaps some work in a sub system. That's it. So ain't disappointed.

Maybe. But the locally produced J-10s are going to be expensive and extremely delayed compared to the J-10s that we can buy from China. We could manufacture J-10s for China but I doubt they have a need that Pakistan can fulfill.

Also, China is increasingly operating like the established weapons manufacturer that it has become - less willing to build your capacity and more willing to sell. This is the reason for the recent PAF obsession of everything Turkish. The Turks are much more willing for a partner than the Chinese today. Once they become established (they are very close), Pakistan would have missed that train as well.

What about and idea of JF17 Block 4 ? whatever tweaks can be make on block 3 can be fine tuned on block 4. Perhaps just one squad of block 4. Atleast there will be some work for AMF.

 

[Sinnerman108]

Project azm has failed and a new road map is there (NASTP)
I have several questions in my mind.

What we can learn from project Azm 's failure?
What not to repeat in NASTP?or
What not to do while building a base for weapons industry? Or even any other industry?

While i will blame over ambitious aims,overall economic situation of country for it's failure,what you guys think about it?
Write down some comprehensive note on it.

Thanks in advance.

Because the project was oriented wrong.
People who conceived this project were sarkari nokri types, who do not understand even
fathom the thought of economically viable, business.

They wanted this to run the same way as KRL was funded and ran.

For any such adventure to be successful, we need the right engineers, in the right
environment for the right purpose.
Our system of administration and governance is too shabby , too fat, too inefficient for doing anything right.

Regards.

 

[SQ8]

Guess what the latest thinking is? Remember that issue with the AMF going dormant? Now they are trying by hook and crook to get the TFX to use AMF in some capacity. The good thing about this interaction of PAC and TA is that PAF will realize how outdated they are and how their hubris doesn't align at all with their capacity. I hope PAC gets it what it wants. I don't want it to lose the last chance they have to catch up with the real world.

Unless kickbacks are involved - I see little motivation for the turks to use it for TFX unless they purchase the EF with some ToT and decide they want to offload UAV manufacturing to Pakistan

 

[TheSolution]

Unless kickbacks are involved - I see little motivation for the turks to use it for TFX unless they purchase the EF with some ToT and decide they want to offload UAV manufacturing to Pakistan

Didn't we purchase the Akinci UAVs, what's the likelihood of AMF being used to produce those in-house?

 

[Xone]

How cynic have we become during this testing time?
Too much pessimism? isn't it?
Relax, and have patience.
Play your part, please.

Problems are an inherent part of every project.
It is a built-in flaw of the man. we make mistakes. mistakes are the mother of new knowledge.

Building expertise and infrastructure is a humongous Herculeous job.
It requires a lot of time and effort.
PAF at least deserves the credit for taking the start in the right direction.
agree? Yes?
Project Planned and put into execution.
Pakistan has executed high-tech projects successfully in the past even having meager or no infrastructure in the country.
The project AZM, the very name tells the whole story. It is an ambitious project
it is a resolution, an aim to attain expertise and experience to build a next-gen fighter.

There are 2 types of problems a man confronts while doing anything.
i. natural, temperamental problem due to having the same nature and mindset as our elder did have.
repeated problem.
ii. new problems arising out of new and changed circumstances.
new problems
For the type first, we have to see how people in the past handled them, history and knowledge will help us.
the second type of problem is a tricky one, the known knowledge can not solve such problems. it needs new work to find its solution.
It needs a process called "test and trial", trial & error.
we put into execution what think is the best known to solve such a problem.
the data shows whether we were right or wrong in our assumption, as to how to tackle the problem.

All technological development and innovation are the outcome of the second type of problem.

Project AZM is an advanced version of this second type of problem.

A project is conceived and put into execution through the process of" test and trial "
A plan, a line of action is there under execution to achieve the well-desired outcome.
All of the esteemed veterans are telling us, It is not up to the mark.
Okay, no problem.
All it needs is correction, not criticism. yes?
Better utilize our mental abilities for the betterment, not discouraging those who are facing difficulties the finding the solution to the problems.
Their way may be wrong but not their intentions.
hold on!
Troubleshooting problems in any life needs specific criteria and a few lines of action.

1 knowledge of the problem, only the user can tell it better.
2 How and Why it occurred? related men, having the know-how.
3 List of causes starting from the most probable to least probable.
4 Hunting down the actual one. start from the obvious and end up with the least.
5 what if fail, make a new list, and repeat the process.
6 what you need is a pragmatic analysis and a persistent approach while doing this.
7 ignore criticism and remain positive and try out of box thinking.
8 Use a fast and relaxed way of thinking.
9 Don't leave in the middle.

Analyze and solve project Azm or any problem in life, using it and hunting down the impending hurdles.

Project in the right direction.
Problems are there to tackle.
AZM is there to address the new challenges and future ones.
Better to fail than not have the courage to start.
Failure is the stepping stone to success.
Keep on Striving.
Actions on the ground bring change, not criticism.

So take action than blame others.
We are the present and future of this Holy Land Pakistan.
We take responsibility to handle it and handover to the next generation.
Take positive constructive actions.
For the People who do not know, ignorance is a blessing.
Striving is the very source of success.
Change the mindset, change the life we live in.

Always aim higher. achieved or not, makes your life.
new skills are the results of ambitious aims.
skills come in doing, not idle criticism.
if you have the knowledge enough to criticize, please one more step to correct it.

Design is always easy, production is hard.
Celebrate your success, how little may it be,

We will achieve it, maybe a little late.
But
Not later than when we need it.

 

[Raj-Hindustani]

It was never a realistic project.

Pakistan never designed any trainer or fighter aircraft. Till now, mostly doing the assembly.

Have Pakistan build the infrastructure and another facilities, example to build and test the new design and tunnel?

 

[GriffinsRule]

An interview I found, if anyone's interested

Partially I feel from watching this they realised Azm was totally unrealistic and have changed their plans to building an ecosystem

There is mention of collaboration with Turkish companies and other local companies.

Perhaps a change in mindset towards a positive direction?

Skip to Air Chief speech from about 1:42:00

What a sad joke of a presentation. All it shows is the construction of buildings as the big plan. Reinforces what everyone has been saying already. Also ... instead of JF-17, they showed picture of a Gripen.

"Next level are the very well-designed tecnho-parks. ...These techo-parks ladies and gentlemen have been master planned with the help of very capable human resource that PAF has, who have studied in various, best of the universities of the world, and have worked in the research centers along with the co-opted from the national landscape."
Then he goes on to compare this planned techno park with Stanford University at the start of the Silicon Valley

Also, what is the deal with these pics and the Kim Jung Un vibes. Slide was just to kiss *** I guess

 

[TheSolution]

What a sad joke of a presentation. All it shows is the construction of buildings as the big plan. Reinforces what everyone has been saying already. Also ... instead of JF-17, they showed picture of a Gripen.

"Next level are the very well-designed tecnho-parks. ...These techo-parks ladies and gentlemen have been master planned with the help of very capable human resource that PAF has, who have studied in various, best of the universities of the world, and have worked in the research centers along with the co-opted from the national landscape."
Then he goes on to compare this planned techno park with Stanford University at the start of the Silicon Valley

View attachment 914060

I don't think it's supposed to be any actual plane - just a canard delta design and it happens to resemble a Gripen

 

[GriffinsRule]

I don't think it's supposed to be any actual plane - just a canard delta design and it happens to resemble a Gripen

It is this image transposed.
Anyways, the entire presentation is what one would expect from a real estate developer. Disappointed to say the least.

 

[TheSolution]

It is this image transposed.

Damn wtf - they really did just pop in a picture of the Gripen

This means they've hired some average guy to produce the slide show for them, and he just did a high schooler kind of job and took images from across the Internet and various companies.

Ngl this is shameful for a national Air Force project - again highlighting the lack of quality human resource

 

[Mig hunter]

There is no need to carry out such projects. we have other important projects such as bringing criminals on air force jets etc

 

[Erieye]

"Next level are the very well-designed tecnho-parks. ...These techo-parks ladies and gentlemen have been master planned with the help of very capable human resource that PAF has, who have studied in various, best of the universities of the world, and have worked in the research centers along with the co-opted from the national landscape."
Then he goes on to compare this planned techno park with Stanford University at the start of the Silicon Valley

This barely put together sentence is part of the problem - doesn't really sound too true and more like it's being said just for the sake of it.

Let's focus on basics here - forget about the rest of the world for a second, this is Pakistan, you need to build these "best of the world" STEM universities here in Pakistan, that can actually produce capable and intelligent graduates comparable to the rest of the world in ability/skill.

Building fancy facilities and instituions is useless if the manpower you produce in schooling is equivalent to high schoolers. Collaborate with Turkey and China in building several high quality STEM universities and improving the overall standard of education.

 

[GriffinsRule]

I was very curious to see who or what KPMG was auditing for 4 years in a row if this project just started

This barely put together sentence is part of the problem - doesn't really sound too true and more like it's being said just for the sake of it.

Let's focus on basics here - forget about the rest of the world for a second, this is Pakistan, you need to build these "best of the world" STEM universities here in Pakistan, that can actually produce capable and intelligent graduates comparable to the rest of the world in ability/skill.

Building fancy facilities and instituions is useless if the manpower you produce in schooling is equivalent to high schoolers. Collaborate with Turkey and China in building several high quality STEM universities and improving the overall standard of education.

I can look past the word fumble as public speaking might not be someone's strong point. But besides construction of buildings, I didn't hear any details of how they will fill them or which university of college in Pakistan have they even talked to so far to create partnerships/internship programs with. Though at one point he did mention providing highspeed internet to locally sourced buildings and getting IT professionals from the surrounding areas in them. What they will be doing is another matter.

 

[JamD]

What about and idea of JF17 Block 4 ? whatever tweaks can be make on block 3 can be fine tuned on block 4. Perhaps just one squad of block 4. Atleast there will be some work for AMF.

It should be obvious that that can only happen if China is on board with that. I don't think it is. The JF-17 program was envisioned as a 3 block program. I doubt PAC has the resources or the capacity to go at this on their own.

What a sad joke of a presentation. All it shows is the construction of buildings as the big plan. Reinforces what everyone has been saying already. Also ... instead of JF-17, they showed picture of a Gripen.

"Next level are the very well-designed tecnho-parks. ...These techo-parks ladies and gentlemen have been master planned with the help of very capable human resource that PAF has, who have studied in various, best of the universities of the world, and have worked in the research centers along with the co-opted from the national landscape."
Then he goes on to compare this planned techno park with Stanford University at the start of the Silicon Valley

View attachment 914060

Also, what is the deal with these pics and the Kim Jung Un vibes. Slide was just to kiss *** I guess

View attachment 914062

I didn't see the video but I've seen these presentations a lot. Like you said. Fancy buildings is all they know. Even Azm has an extremely beautiful building of course.

Unless kickbacks are involved - I see little motivation for the turks to use it for TFX unless they purchase the EF with some ToT and decide they want to offload UAV manufacturing to Pakistan

I don't understand why the Turks are very willing for offloading TFX work to PAC. Maybe they hope our economy will pick up and we'll buy 60 models or something. I don't know. They've tried offloading UAV work to us. PAC is just slow. Do you know the Mushaak deliveries are still ongoing and the TurAF is very annoyed by the extremely slow pace of work.

I have a theory that this is a ideological thing being pushed by Erdogan and will go away if a political change happens this year.