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What led to the failure of project Azm?

An interview I found, if anyone's interested

Partially I feel from watching this they realised Azm was totally unrealistic and have changed their plans to building an ecosystem

There is mention of collaboration with Turkish companies and other local companies.

Perhaps a change in mindset towards a positive direction?

Skip to Air Chief speech from about 1:42:00

 
An interview I found, if anyone's interested

Partially I feel from watching this they realised Azm was totally unrealistic and have changed their plans to building an ecosystem

There is mention of collaboration with Turkish companies and other local companies.

Perhaps a change in mindset towards a positive direction?

Skip to Air Chief speech from about 1:42:00


Within the plan also lies the problem; you have no industry to build the ecosystem. Mostly, what I've seen anything high-end is just assembling.
 
Within the plan also lies the problem; you have no industry to build the ecosystem. Mostly, what I've seen anything high-end is just assembling.
I guess their solution is the "incubation centres" for people who have ideas, to build industries

But I think there should be a stronger focus on quality STEM education - more universities and better quality standards.

Bottom up model
 
I guess their solution is the "incubation centres" for people who have ideas, to build industries

But I think there should be a stronger focus on quality STEM education - more universities and better quality standards.

Bottom up model


See my post in that link. The issue is we don't have a feeder program in place from university to practical career jump; plus, no reliable company wants to work in Pakistan.
What Pakistan needs is a total gut renovation.

Those two guys I mentioned were foreign Ph.D., and our system couldn't absorb them but instead hired sub-standard Ph.D. out of Pakistani schools.
 
Developing a 5th generation aircraft is extremely hard. There is a reason only 2 countries have developed them so far.

Even a industrial giant like Russia has struggled with the SU-57. People expecting Pakistan to develop 5th generation... I mean what can I say?

Our defence industry is not as good as it should have been. Had our "neutrals" focused on "Research and Development" as much as they focus on meddling in politics, making sex tapes, killing journalists, making DHAs and golf courses, there is no doubt in my mind we could have had a defense industry as good as Turkey. Which is where our defence industry should have been ideally.

Even Iran which has been sanctioned and isolated for the last 40 years has a more advanced defence industry than Pakistan. Lakh di lanat...
 
1. Was this even a real project, from what I have gathered, it was on papers and mockups only, no information regarding the aircraft's actual desgin it's PDR, nothing.
2. Did pakistan even had proper research institutions to begin with, its universtites stand nowhere in comparison to the rest of the world, numbers of patents registered in pakistan is abysmally low with defence related patents being nearly non existent, it has 0 significant private industry that can supply sub systems for parts needed for a 5th gen fighter (leave 5th gen your industries can't supply parts for een 4th gen)
3. How much experience does PAC kamra has when it comes to desgining aircrafts (if i am not mistaken there was no pakistani contribution in desgining of jf17)
4. How much experience does pakistan has when it comes to manufacturing aircrafts, because 5th gen aircrafts manufacturing needs extreme tolerances which can not be gained by manufacturing a lightweight single engine 4th gen aircraft.
5. How many subsystems of JF17 were indigenously desgined and developed (so that it would have generated important know why which could later be used in producing an improved variant for %th gen aircraft) , most of the subsystems were either license manufactured (which gives know how but not know why), sub assembled from SKD kits imported from china, or were outright imported.
6. how much money did the government actually spent on the project, turks are able to produce most of the subsystems needed for the aircraft in-house because they are throwing money at it blindly as the project is of utmost national importence.
7. Since its clear from above points pakistan can't produce a 5th gen fighter alone, it would need substantial help from a foreign partner, but since china is already devloping a 2nd export based 5th gen aircraft, why would they help you when they can simply sell you their own product. (Even the turks are having substantial foreign help from various nato countries in important subsystems)

PAKISTAN DEVLOPING A 5TH GEN FIGHTER INDIGENOUSLY IS AS TRUE AS EARTH BEING FLAT.
Guy, this post is 15 years too late.
 
1. Was this even a real project, from what I have gathered, it was on papers and mockups only, no information regarding the aircraft's actual desgin it's PDR, nothing.
2. Did pakistan even had proper research institutions to begin with, its universtites stand nowhere in comparison to the rest of the world, numbers of patents registered in pakistan is abysmally low with defence related patents being nearly non existent, it has 0 significant private industry that can supply sub systems for parts needed for a 5th gen fighter (leave 5th gen your industries can't supply parts for een 4th gen)
3. How much experience does PAC kamra has when it comes to desgining aircrafts (if i am not mistaken there was no pakistani contribution in desgining of jf17)
4. How much experience does pakistan has when it comes to manufacturing aircrafts, because 5th gen aircrafts manufacturing needs extreme tolerances which can not be gained by manufacturing a lightweight single engine 4th gen aircraft.
5. How many subsystems of JF17 were indigenously desgined and developed (so that it would have generated important know why which could later be used in producing an improved variant for %th gen aircraft) , most of the subsystems were either license manufactured (which gives know how but not know why), sub assembled from SKD kits imported from china, or were outright imported.
6. how much money did the government actually spent on the project, turks are able to produce most of the subsystems needed for the aircraft in-house because they are throwing money at it blindly as the project is of utmost national importence.
7. Since its clear from above points pakistan can't produce a 5th gen fighter alone, it would need substantial help from a foreign partner, but since china is already devloping a 2nd export based 5th gen aircraft, why would they help you when they can simply sell you their own product. (Even the turks are having substantial foreign help from various nato countries in important subsystems)

PAKISTAN DEVLOPING A 5TH GEN FIGHTER INDIGENOUSLY IS AS TRUE AS EARTH BEING FLAT.

Unfortunately the Pakistanis are following the model you indians use.
 
Supposedly, we would continued the project and pulled it off by borrowing billions of dollars and pouring into it. Then what ? PAF would only induct a squadron or 2 maximum by next decade given the extreme cost of these aircrafts. So it was no feasible anyway unless you have export plans. The chances of successful exports were not very bright as South Korean, Chinese, Turkish options have appeared in addition to American ones.

IMO, Pakistan should focus on indigenous UCAVs. We should focus on select few areas and be master of those. Better to be master of one then jack of all. We need to work on such indigenous projects on which we could grab maximum share on export market to make it sustainable.
R&D and these sorts of projects shouldn't be thought about in straight forward economic terms.


Imagine the knowledge base and the industrial capacity that would be created if we made a 5th generation fighter from scratch. It could start many high tech industries if successful.

Also there is the strategic value. Pakistan won't be poor forever. With the size of our nation and workforce even a moderately competent govt could turn us into an economic power house in 2-3 decades.

At that point we could think in a more ambitious manner militarily. You can't buy sovereignty and independence. We should look at what South Korea, China and Turkey are doing in terms of tech and R&D. Military spending on research created a lot of economic value in the USA too.
 
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Our Army knew Pakistani public bought "ISI world's best agency"
so they will buy Project Azm so lets fool people about our greatness
I now even wonder if JF17 is real or just an ISPR promo.
 
Corruption, Ego's, delusional , lack of grasp on reality , Jee Huzuri , Truck ki batti etc Pakistan has little to no infrastructure to develop anything let alone a 5th Gen fighter. We are a failed country which is dangling for its dear life surrounded by enemies and inside lives a mad mob who still wants to live in 6th century Arabia mock ups. Anything us Pakistani's adopted or touched we ruined it, our society is backward and everyone just get basic level of education, saves up some money and runs out, how many PDH's we have ? how many we are producing every year ? how many of them go to west to work ? our colleges and universities are den for Racial/Religious politics, students who wants to do something for country never made it to the top because of the system of nepotism and corruption, no merit exists neither does any accountability. Pakistan is not a country but jungle with borders where lots of different animals live in the conditions survival of the fittest.
 
Corruption, Ego's, delusional , lack of grasp on reality , Jee Huzuri , Truck ki batti etc Pakistan has little to no infrastructure to develop anything let alone a 5th Gen fighter. We are a failed country which is dangling for its dear life surrounded by enemies and inside lives a mad mob who still wants to live in 6th century Arabia mock ups. Anything us Pakistani's adopted or touched we ruined it, our society is backward and everyone just get basic level of education, saves up some money and runs out, how many PDH's we have ? how many we are producing every year ? how many of them go to west to work ? our colleges and universities are den for Racial/Religious politics, students who wants to do something for country never made it to the top because of the system of nepotism and corruption, no merit exists neither does any accountability. Pakistan is not a country but jungle with borders where lots of different animals live in the conditions survival of the fittest.
Hi,

Indeed---egos got pretty heavy after the success of the JF17 aircraft---.

Just a habitual BARRA BOLL----loud mouth talk---.
 
Look at South Korea
Got independence at same time as us
They're also asians like us.
Have fierce enemy and continuous threat of war and invasion.
what fierce enemy? their own people from the north?
what independence? S. Korea is occupied by the USA millitary
 
Project azm has failed and a new road map is there (NASTP)
I have several questions in my mind.

What we can learn from project Azm 's failure?
What not to repeat in NASTP?or
What not to do while building a base for weapons industry? Or even any other industry?

While i will blame over ambitious aims,overall economic situation of country for it's failure,what you guys think about it?
Write down some comprehensive note on it.

Thanks in advance.

The project was never real to begin with. How could something fail if it never got started, someone was blowing smoke up people's *** for propaganda and publicity. Building a 5th Gen fighter is difficult enough for Middle powers like South Korea, Turkey, Sweden, who actually have experience with high tech aerospace development and production. Its a difficult project even for India which has the money resources for the project even if it doesn't have as extensive of an experience as other states. Even the Israelis didn't attempt to create their own 5th Gen fighter, and they have a higher GDP than Pakistan and they spend a higher percentage of their GDP on Defense than Pakistan(5.66% vs 3.74%) and a far more developed high tech aerospace and defense industry. Or even the Iranians which despite the sanctions, and outside of Nukes, I would argue have a far more robust defense industry and military development capacity than Pakistan.

This project if it was ever genuine to start with(I don't think it was ever real, the Military Brass I expect are more competent than the gullible public and realize the extent of the task at hand) was set up for failure.

People it seems never learned from the IAI Lavi failure that the Israelis had, or even the Tejas project failures that the Indians had. don't try to create a full product all on your own, in the very first go. The way to go about this is to do things piecewise.

If Pakistan's goal is to develop its aerospace sector, the proper way to do this is to do it piecewise. Firstly find a partner country to codevelop with, which will give you some domestic production, as well as transfer of tech. Secondly don't try to develop the the full airframe and engine etc., instead do what the Israelis did, design subsystems and addons for the product, so for example, start with the very basic things, build air to ground missiles and air to air munitions for your platforms, in terms of development of aircraft this is one of the easier things to develop. so Cruise missiles, glide bombs, guidance kits(like spice). Next comes the avoinics and sensors, design your own PODs like Litening and Aselpod. Then move on to other subsystems, like IRST etc etc, Finally design your own Radars and other sensors. Also develop skills and technical knowledge for overhauling and maintenance of aircraft as part of the domestic production license agreement via tech transfers. This way you will become self sufficient in carrying out support for your aircraft without needing as much input from the country you bought the aircraft from, you will not need to buy munitions and send the aircraft back for modernization(outside of major things like upgrading the engine).

Also be pragmatic and understand your own weaknesses and needs, and concentrate efforts in building you a cohesive development plan that also has a corresponding military doctrine for warfare, would will not succeed in fighting a war for example in the same way that India fights a war, you have neither the money, technical base, nor the manpower(although Pakistan does have formidable manpower, you will not be able to field the same amount of platforms as your neighbor, so don't create a military doctrine that tries to mimic or mirror equivalents, for example you won't be able to acquire as many planes as India, you will need a different approach). Iran for example knows it cannot field a conventional air force that its neighbors can field, b/c of difficultly in buying what it needs from sanctions, as well as not having the budget to match its adversaries, so it doesn't try to build an airforce in the same way as its adversaries, instead it concentrates its efforts on drone warfare, from loitering munitions to bigger platforms, it concentrates its defense on aeriel denial via air defense systems, and it bases its deterrence on ballistic missiles and cruise missiles. Also understand your own strengths, what are things Pakistan has access to that India my not have? for example if India wanted to field 5th gen fighters tomorrow, could it do that? no, b/c its unlikely that the US as it currently stands would be willing to allow the export of F-35s to India, and the French and other Europeans are still developing their so they couldn't sell them even if they wanted to. The Russians could in theory do so, but Russia's mass production capability and development of the Su-57 is a bit suspect, considering the engines are still an issue, and its just not as stealthy as other designs, nor does it have sensor fusion and other capabilities as other fighters. Its one of the reasons as to why the Indians abandoned the FGFA project. China on the other hand has developed probably the most formidable platform outside of the US, and China won't sell to India for obvious reasons, but China may be willing to sell to Pakistan, as that has strategic benefits to it. So if I was a Pakistani policy maker, I would consider buying a squadron of Shenyang FC-31, its too expensive for Pakistan to buy a mass order of them to warrant domestic license production from China, but like the Israelis secured an agreement for modification with the "Adir" f-35, Pakistan could secure something similar, and develop subsystems for the aircraft like the Israelis do. This way, despite not having a numerical advantage that India does, Pakistan would have a qualitative advantage against India, for quite some time, as its unlikely the Indian 5th generation plane would be ready anytime soon, and if the Tejas project is any indication, it may be a long time, and by that time comes, China would likely have moved on to next generation platforms, which can possibly be acquired. Use the FC-31 along with the Jf-17 as part of a "High Low mix", and also consider acquiring AEWAC aircraft based on the Y-20 as well.
 

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