What It Would Really Take To Sink a modern Aircraft Carrier

[BHarwana]

To sink an air ship carrier first you need to know where to hit the carrier to get it sink. Air ship carriers use extensive weight management and if you hit the area which if damaged will shift air ship carriers weight will sink it. In case of Indian carriers the weight is usually balanced between Fuel load and Aircraft load so taking out the fuel load side will make the carrier out of balance and thus can sink with a rather smaller pay load.

Now lets move to counter measures. You need a missile that is capable of making a low altitude fight. A missile that uses both RADAR and Anti Radiation homing. The missile needs to be sub sonic beyond horizon Super sonic after horizon. The missile needs to have a RDD design and it will be a single shot kill.

 

[Ultima Thule]

Sir ji, you failed to mention where it is written an anti-torpedo.
Anti Torpedo is also known as in some cases a flare which is used when a torpedo is fired at a Ship or a Submarine.
I have no answer for you because, you are not getting what I am saying. So, it's more like no use answering to you.


Yeah, but what should I do when he is not listening to anything and keep quoting me with same factually wrong comment.

Factually wrong what is you talking about i show the evidence you are not accepting is not my problem here you go again
In 1995 it was revealed that Russia had developed an exceptionally high-speed unguided underwater missile which has no equivalent in the West. Code-named the Shkval (Squall), the new weapon travels at a velocity that would give a targeted vessel very little chance to perform evasive action. The missile has been characterized as a "revenge" weapon, which would be fired along the bearing of an incoming enemy torpedo. The Shkval may be considered a follow-on to the Russian BGT class of evasion torpedoes, which are fired in the direction of an incoming torpedo to try to force an attacking to evade (and hopefully snap the torpedo's guidance wires). The weapon was deployed in the early 1990s, and had been in service for years when the fact of its existence was disclosed.
you are overconfidence guy with no knowledge

 

[Chhatrapati]

Factually wrong what is you talking about i show the evidence you are not accepting is not my problem here you go again
In 1995 it was revealed that Russia had developed an exceptionally high-speed unguided underwater missile which has no equivalent in the West. Code-named the Shkval (Squall), the new weapon travels at a velocity that would give a targeted vessel very little chance to perform evasive action. The missile has been characterized as a "revenge" weapon, which would be fired along the bearing of an incoming enemy torpedo. The Shkval may be considered a follow-on to the Russian BGT class of evasion torpedoes, which are fired in the direction of an incoming torpedo to try to force an attacking to evade (and hopefully snap the torpedo's guidance wires). The weapon was deployed in the early 1990s, and had been in service for years when the fact of its existence was disclosed.
you are overconfidence guy with no knowledge

Your denial doesn't change the fact Shkval is a Torpedo

 

[jhungary]

Sir I agree that both systems are unproven in war scenario and I also accept that USA experience and tech is way too superior but to hit a bullet with a bullet is way too tough ... So the job of DF21D is difficult but the job of anti-ballistic missile or SAM system is even more difficult especially against saturation attack ... Furthermore, DF21D has to hit just once whereas SM-3 has to be successful in all the cases therefore even in terms of probability DF21D job is easier ...

You cannot launch a saturation attack with Ballistic Missile it take time to fuel and launch a Ballistic missile, it's not like launching a cruise missile or a SAM.

In this case, each Mk 41 VLS can launch a SM-3, meaning there will be about 900 SM-3 US ship can launch at the same time to protect a carrier battlegroup.

It's not exactly a bullet hitting a bullet, it's more like using a bullet to hit a remote control car.

 

[ayesha.a]

In case of Indian carriers the weight is usually balanced between Fuel load and Aircraft load so taking out the fuel load side will make the carrier out of balance and thus can sink with a rather smaller pay load.

Please share the source for this info.

 

[Ultima Thule]

Your denial doesn't change the fact Shkval is a Torpedo

yes who deny this but its a anti torpedo torpedo in 1995- 96, today its guided and steerable torpedo

 

[The Accountant]

You cannot launch a saturation attack with Ballistic Missile it take time to fuel and launch a Ballistic missile, it's not like launching a cruise missile or a SAM.

In this case, each Mk 41 VLS can launch a SM-3, meaning there will be about 900 SM-3 US ship can launch at the same time to protect a carrier battlegroup.

It's not exactly a bullet hitting a bullet, it's more like using a bullet to hit a remote control car.

And how do you suggest that at one point of time only one can be prepared ... As per my knowlede DF21D is to be fired from TEL so you are telling me that at given base Chinese has just one TEL to launch DF21D ... If this is than sounds like a flawed strategy ...

Are you serious ? all SM-3 to be launched on sametime ... Last time I read each radar has some limitations with respect to tracking and engaging target but you are suggesting that in case of SM-3 its none ... must be hell of a system ... Kindly share your source ...

 

[BHarwana]

Please share the source for this info.

Please try to read the design documents on Russian carries and the intelligence reports that why the carrier was delayed for delivery because the weight distribution was the main issue.

 

[gambit]

There is a third purpose as well ... Every system has process limitations ... limitation in target acquisition limit in engaging target ... response time limitation ...

This means the target is moving. A saturation attack is intended to create an accidental hit.

There is an algorithm -- that I will not say of the details -- for the defense against such an attack. The problem for the attacker is that the moving target's predictability is low, unless we are talking about a moving train, a vehicle that travels on a fixed medium -- rail tracks. The locomotive's predictability is high in heading, speed, and future locations.

Most people have the misconception that a saturation attack against a moving warship -- under combat alert -- is no different than an artillery barrage where all shells are to land simultaneously or near so. That is not true. If you are to launch 10 missiles against a moving ship and you know there is no guarantee that one missile will hit, you have to guess on where the ship is supposed to be, then launch the second missile at that time, and so on for the next and next missiles. This is not considering the defense can launch countermeasures such as flares (against IR sensor) or chaff (against radar sensor).

What the algorithm does is compute the ship's heading and speed, then calculate the necessary predictive countermeasures, which includes an interceptor missile, in other words, all countermeasures are mathematically husbanded. No need to launch countermeasures on where you have been, only where you are heading, correct ? And even then, no need to launch when you detect nothing, correct ?

Still think the DF-21D can go against a moving ship ?

Are you serious ? all SM-3 to be launched on sametime ... Last time I read each radar has some limitations with respect to tracking and engaging target but you are suggesting that in case of SM-3 its none ... must be hell of a system ... Kindly share your source ...

The AEGIS can engage multiple targets. That is known for decades.

 

[Penguin]

Can Aircraft CarrierCarrier or DDG, FFG maneuver in drastic manners shkval reaction time is extremely low as compare to conventional torpedoes and anti ship missiles, there are extremely low chance for any naval vessel to get rid of shkval

Carrier high speed turns

Arleigh Burke class DDG accellerates and makes a hair pin turn

Sir I see somewhere on the net they developed guided and turning shkval not straight line shkval, and it's range increased significantly from 15 Km to 30 Km

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VA-111_Shkval

There are at least three variants:

• VA-111 Shkval – Original variant; GOLIS autonomous inertial guidance.
• "Shkval 2" - Current variant; believed to have additional guidance systems, possibly via the use of vectored thrust, and with much longer range.
• A less capable version currently being exported to various third world navies. The export version is referred to as "Shkval-E".

ll current versions are believed to be fitted only with conventional explosive warheads, although the original design used a nuclear warhead.

• Length: 8.2 m (26 ft 11 in)
• Diameter: 533 mm (21 in)
• Weight: 2,700 kg (6,000 lb)
• Warhead weight: 210 kg (460 lb)
• Speed
  • Launch speed: 50 knots (93 km/h; 58 mph)
  • Maximum speed: 200 knots (370 km/h; 230 mph) or greater
• Range: Newer version = around 11–15 km (6.8–9.3 mi). Older versions only 7 km (4.3 mi)

The missile has been characterized as a "revenge" weapon, which would be fired along the bearing of an incoming enemy torpedo. The Shkval may be considered a follow-on to the Russian BGT class of evasion torpedoes, which are fired in the direction of an incoming torpedo to try to force an attacking to evade (and hopefully snap the torpedo's guidance wires). The weapon was deployed in the early 1990s, and had been in service for years when the fact of its existence was disclosed.

Apparently fired from standard 533mm torpedo tubes, Shkval has a range of about 7,500 yards. The weapon clears the tube at fifty knots, upon which its rocket fires, propelling the missile through the water at 360 kph [about 100 m/sec / 230 mph / 200-knots], three or four times as fast as conventional torpedoes. The solid-rocket propelled "torpedo" achieves high speeds by producing a high-pressure stream of bubbles from its nose and skin, which coats the torpedo in a thin layer of gas and forms a local "envelope" of supercavitating bubbles. Carrying a tactical nuclear warhead initiated by a timer, it would destroy the hostile submarine and the torpedo it fired. The Shkval high-speed underwater missile is guided by an auto-pilot rather than by a homing head as on most torpedoes. [edit: that means it is UNGUIDED, it follows a preset track but does not seek, lock and kill a target independently. It blows its nuke warhead which kills both incoming torp and the sub that fired it in one stroke. Given nuke warhead it needs to be only in general proximity of both incoming torp and sub that fired it. With conventional warhead, it becomes just a lucky shot.]

There are no evident countermeasures to such a weapon, its employment could put adversary naval forces as a considerable disadvantage. One such scenario is a rapid attack situation wherein a sudden detection of a threat submarine is made, perhaps at relatively short range, requiring an immediate response to achieve weapon on target and to ensure survival. Apparently guidance is a problem, and the initial version of the Shkval was unguided However, the Russians have been advertising a homing version, which runs out at very high speed, then slows to search.
[edit: it needs to slow down, or else any on board echo sounding device or hydrophone can pick up any noise to home in on. But then, once slowed down, I would expect it to no longer be supercavitating .... it would still use a nuke warhead]
The 'Region' Scientific Production Association has developed developed an export modification of the missile, 'Shkval-E'. Russia began marketing this conventionally armed version of the Shkval high-speed underwater rocket at the IDEX 99 exhibition in Abu Dhabi in early 1999. The concept of operations for this missile requires the crew of a submarine, ship or the coast guard define the target's parameters -- speed, distance and vector -- and feeds the data to the missile's automatic pilot. The missile is fired, achieves its optimum depth and switches on its engines. The missile does not have a homing warhead and follows a computer-generated program.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/russia/shkval.htm
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/russia/shkval-ref.htm

See also https://books.google.nl/books?id=DkquBQAAQBAJ&pg=PA73&lpg=PA73&dq=shkval+torpedo&source=bl&ots=265FAX6b3c&sig=kXBnamqcqQJBrX8RI3DC4CYmPa8&hl=nl&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjR-7iQs7_TAhVkJcAKHS4tAwM4ChDoAQhTMAU#v=onepage&q=shkval torpedo&f=false

High speed prevents homing (same reason why frigate practise 'sprint and drift' tactics during ASW operations)

 

[ayesha.a]

Please try to read the design documents on Russian carries and the intelligence reports that why the carrier was delayed for delivery because the weight distribution was the main issue.

When you said "Indian carriers" (in the plural), did you mean INS Vikramaditya?

Which design documents? Are they available online? Could you share a link? Hopefully to the specific claim you made? And which intel reports? Of which country? Again, do you have access to these? Please share.

The reasons for the delays of the carrier, as far as I know, was the initial underestimation of the work required for cabling and refitting. But if you have more accurate (and credible) info about weight distribution, do share.

I want to be sure that that wasn't a statement you simply made out of thin air, about weight being balanced between aircrafts and fuel and so on. That sounded very flimsy.

 

[Penguin]

No..

You think Chinese is nice to just fire one DF-21D at one carrier group? Your simulation and test has only carry out against a single missile interception.

You think a carrier group is a point target? It is in fact an area target.

Chinese aircraft carriers are/will be indestructible. They are invulnerable to any attack, and will never be able to be sunk.

Only American aircraft carriers can be sunk because they are very primitive.

Thrust vectoring. The point is, even with the guidance system the projectile was unable to maneuver in water at the terminal velocity phase. I know, wikipedia doesn't always provide enough knowledge boy. Thrust vectoring are unconfirmed reports. With no citations. No face value to it.

Sonar wouldn't work at high speed (anything over 20kn).

anti torpedo weapon i want no respect, but other senior members knows better me and you about this system

Shkval is fired down the bearing of an incoming torpedo i.e. not to hit the torpedo but to force the atacking sub to break away, which means cutting guidance wires to the incoming torpedo (which then no longer is guided). When armed with a nuke warhead, it only need to be in general area of incoming torp and sub that fired it to kill both in a single stroke. SO, any anti-torpedo function is INDIRECT. It is not a precision weapons that takes out the incoming torpedo by hitting it or exploding in close proximity of it.

 

[BHarwana]

When you said "Indian carriers" (in the plural), did you mean INS Vikramaditya?

Which design documents? Are they available online? Could you share a link? Hopefully to the specific claim you made? And which intel reports? Of which country? Again, do you have access to these? Please share.

The reasons for the delays of the carrier, as far as I know, was the initial underestimation of the work required for cabling and refitting. But if you have more accurate (and credible) info about weight distribution, do share.

I want to be sure that that wasn't a statement you simply made out of thin air, about weight being balanced between aircrafts and fuel and so on. That sounded very flimsy.

To understand me you require more knowledge on how the airship carriers are designed and how they work. The biggest problem regarding Air craft carriers is weight distribution and that is why Indian purchase of old soviet chassis was a wrong move and the carrier can fall victim to single missile that strikes at the right location thus taking down the entire carrier. If you are trying to save face then best of luck but the Baku was a helicopter carrier which was converted in an Aircraft carrier and has weight distribution issues you can check the info on Baku and will find me true. The intel info is not available online but you can find info with Australian defense report analysis. just research Baku class soviet carrier and you will get the desired info.

 

[Chhatrapati]

Sonar wouldn't work at high speed (anything over 20kn).

Yeah, but there is no reports on the actual range of it.

 

[randomradio]

You cannot launch a saturation attack with Ballistic Missile it take time to fuel and launch a Ballistic missile, it's not like launching a cruise missile or a SAM.

BMs are solid fueled, particularly the Chinese carrier killers. They are not topped up before launch, they are topped up during production.