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WHAT IT TAKES technly, TO MAKE a J-11b (a modifyied FLANKER), TO TAKE ON MKI!

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yes ... russian stealth concept is different from boeing ... boeing's stealth exists for one

So true...take any Russian claims of stealth with a grain of sail..plasma technology,smart skin etc etc concepts have been around for years and do they have it on a single plane by now?

The RCS of the flankers cannot be reduced.But that is no big deal as long as they are not facing the F-22 or the F-35 or even the AESA radar outfitted F-16's or F-15's.
 
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yap, J11bs is the best most & the nearest thing to MKIs!:tup:

its just like throwing a horse out of the race even before the start. Let FC-20 come first then we will be able to discuss whether it is able to take on "Great" MKI or not.
 
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its just like throwing a horse out of the race even before the start. Let FC-20 come first then we will be able to discuss whether it is able to take on "Great" MKI or not.

dear, !
just wana know , in your life ever you have seen , a flanker taking off, from your eyes?:no:
wait till thn, & stop posting, before you can see , FC-20!
thanks,for the advise!, just stay on th dam , topic!:angry:
if you dont like it thn dont post here!:hitwall:



sory to say, its the VERY NEXT BEST THING, which can PAKISTAN afford , in comming 5 years , & after carefully , upgrading it , with westrn avionics, like FC-20, JF-THUNDERs!
they are the most cost effective solution , for a AIRFORCE , which is ready to fight, but needs , fightable structures? but DONT has the cash , because its political leaders , took all , what ever they can, a decade ago!
 
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The RCS of the flankers cannot be reduced

i would beg to differ on this point ....im not saying RCS MKI will be very small but it certainly is not as big as su-27 A & B or even MKKs for that matter
 
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i would beg to differ on this point ....im not saying RCS MKI will be very small but it certainly is not as big as su-27 A & B or even MKKs for that matter

You are correct in essence, but before reducing Su30's RCS, one must calculate which parts of its design are responsible for its huge RCS.

My bet is that Su30s RCS is due to its large parallel tail planes and visible engine fans, also the very prominent tandem cockpit layout. If thats the case, coating Su30 with 10s of million dollars worth of RAM material will only amount to 5~10% reduce in RCS, which would be simple waste of money.

I think gambit can be in better position to shed some light on this matter.
 
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J-11BS
Tandem twin seater version of J-11B under development, reportedly as the Chinese version of Su-30MK2/3. It is rumored that the letter S stands for Shuangzuo, meaning twin seater in Chinese. The existence of J-11BS is officially acknowledged by the Chinese government in 2007, and a large model of J-11BS was revealed public on June 9, 2007 during the opening ceremony of the new aerospace museum of the Harbin Institute of Technology at the 20-year anniversary of the establishment of its school of astronautics, where it is displayed. Some sources outside China have claimed that the successful development of J-11BS is one of reasons that China lacks the enthusiasm on purchasing Su-30MK3, but the Chinese government appears to be rather cautious, with official reports only claiming that the project is very promising, instead of declaring it is successful already.

Su-27SK Upgrade
Both the SUV-VEP air-to-air subsystem and the SUV-P air-to-surface subsystems of the Sukhoi Su-30MKK fire control system were adopted to upgrade the single seat Su-27SK in Chinese inventory, and a joint team of Tikhomirov Scientific Research Institute of Instrument Design (NIIP) and State Instrumentation Plant at Ryazan was named as the primary contractor to provide the Chinese with the upgraded avionics package. The modified SUV-VEP subsystem adopted to upgrade Chinese Su-27SK was designated as SUV-VE, while the modified SUV-P subsystem adopted to upgrade Chinese Su-27SK was designated as SUV-PE. The original analog dial indicator on flight dashboard of Su-27SK were replaced by two 6 in x 6 in MFI-10-6M and a MFIP-6 LCD MFDs. According to Russian claim at the 6th Zhuhai Airshow, over 60 Chinese Su-27SK have been upgraded by the end of 2006.

The radar was also upgraded, but such upgrade is not part of the deal signed with Russian contractors. Instead, the radar upgrade was indigenously carried out by Chinese themselves in increments, but no official information on the exact type of radar has been released by the Chinese authorities yet (as of 2008), and thus the rumored passive phased array radar being utilized in such upgrades cannot be confirmed. With the radar improvement, the upgraded Su-27SK with the upgrade is claimed to have its overall combat efficiency significantly improved, approaching that of J-11B. It is not clear if China has continued such upgrade after 2006 since no more information was released.

J-11C (or J-11BJ)
A yet-to-be-built aircraft carrier version, speculated on due to the success of the Russian Navy Su-33. The first mock-up of J-11C was displayed in public at airshows and defense exhibitions in China in late 2002, and the mock-up is shown to be able to be armed with all currently available Chinese anti-ship missiles, as well as air-to-air missile including PL-12. Based on this public display and the Chinese order of Su-33, many predicted that J-11C might be used as a shipborne maritime strike role similar to that of land based Su-30MKK/MK2, while others argued the primary role would still be fleet air defense, but neither can be confirmed because no detailed official information has been released by neither the Chinese government nor the developer.



J-10C
Meanwhile, according to informed commentators, a J-10C with twin engines around the size of RD-33s and incorporating similar features to the J-10B has arrived. This is supposedly a direct competitor to the Eurofighter and has the same layout - twin engined canard delta with a single tail. The PLAAF will have to decide whether to go with the J-10B or the J-10C at some point. Pakistan will not go for the J-10C as the twin engines do not comply with their doctrine of single-engined fighters and with the AFDP-2019.



A carrier based J-10
A carrier based J-10 has also been reported but this is in direct competition with the J-13, a dedicated 4.5++ carrier fighter with a conventional layout similar to the F/A-18 Super Hornets.


http://www.defence.pk/forums/milita...-thunder-multirole-fighter-83.html#post437649
 
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You are correct in essence, but before reducing Su30's RCS, one must calculate which parts of its design are responsible for its huge RCS.

My bet is that Su30s RCS is due to its large parallel tail planes and visible engine fans, also the very prominent tandem cockpit layout. If thats the case, coating Su30 with 10s of million dollars worth of RAM material will only amount to 5~10% reduce in RCS, which would be simple waste of money.

I think gambit can be in better position to shed some light on this matter.

not to forget, canards is a big factor..
 
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India is trying to use some technologies from PAK-FA to implement some degree of stealth( like painting with Radar absorbant materials). i have read some reports that it was successful in reducing the overall radar signature of existing design and in future india will definitely experiment with hypersonic Brahmos on su 30MKI :cheers:
Painting it with radar absorbing material will not be much effective on Su30, you know why ... because probably 90% of the RCS generated by Su30 is because of its massive engines being visible from front (from within FOD filter) and because of its two HUGE tails. This is the same problems US had with F14 & F15.

Why waste expensive paint on Su30 when its not going to give much of a difference.
There are some benefits, else Boeing would not have produced the F-15 Silent Eagle. That said...The Su-series, and that include the J-11, may not be as amenable to the application of RAM and the even more drastic measure of airframe and planform modifications. Not technically impossible, just may be not as worthwhile in terms of cost/benefits analysis.

Here is why...

fdd52f91d3b78c6ac81ce67dc3ec1ed7.jpg


An aircraft is first and foremost, for any attempt at RCS reduction, a complex body. Failure to accept this fact will result in wasted resources and under a dictatorial regime, loss of one's head in payment for those wasted resources. For radar detection, a complex body is a 'Swerling' type target...

Peak Detection of Swerling type Targets. Part 1. Detection Probabilities in White Noise
Peak detection is an alternative to the commonly used threshold detection scheme in radar systems. The present report is the first part in an investigation of peak detection performance, for Swerling type targets, in an arbitrary noise/clutter background. In this report, peak detection is compared with classic fixed threshold detection in uncorrelated white noise. A methodology is also developed, capable of handling arbitrary stochastic signal and noise/clutter models.
Basically...A complex body ALWAYS produces diverse echo points from its many different surfaces. Against background radiation, or 'clutter', these diverse echoes not only stands out but also clustered. Some of the smaller echoes will fall within the clutter region and will be filtered out by the radar computer. Some of the smaller echoes may come from a sharp edge, like the leading edge of a wing, and when the aircraft execute a maneuver, this particular surface can come to be the dominant echo in the total RCS summation.

Threshold detection algorithms just simply remember any and all echo points that rose above the clutter region and keep that cluster in memory -- a 'target' is qualified and displayed on the scope. Peak detection scheme is more complex in that not only does the radar computer begin recording an echo point that is above clutter but continue recording until that echo die. The result is the above image that contain a 3-axes graphical locations of those echo points and a 'stickman' like aircraft composited from those echo points. Threshold detection scheme is unofficially 'good enough' for F-15 equivalent bodies and that include the Su-series. Peak detection scheme is best against F-16 equivalent bodies and that include the single engine J-10.

These echo points varies not only from scan to scan -- main beam movement -- but from pulse to pulse -- inside the transmission itself. So it is clear that against US 'stealth' aircrafts, peak detection scheme is required but remain doubtful that a target is qualified since their bodies, including the estimated highest echo points, are designed to be reflective within the clutter region. The word 'doubtful' here is intended to be taken in a statistical context, not that those echo points are nonexistent. They are very real. The word 'complex' refers to EVERYTHING on the body and for military aircrafts, that includes miscellaneous items like pylons and the protruding bolts that attach them to the wings, ordnance, the many antennas types, etc...etc...If a radar system is primitive enough to have only a threshold detection scheme, it is likely that it will display an F-22 or F-35 only within visual range, but then it will be too late.

32e2ac203a90c02c289e827ccb2b434d.jpg


8a356ac4f9eb6ce310d2db59c7f02a74.jpg


8292142cdb9fe8644b0a85a4c919237d.jpg


1b501bde47de485fb7b253a92b82070a.jpg


CAUTION...DO NOT for a moment believe that those are the true RCS figures of the B-2. The aircraft's general physical profiles are public enough since we flew the aircraft to many places in the world. What we see are estimated figures ran through a predictive RCS program that happened to include commercially available RAM, such as those applied to airport radomes, and their electrical properties are also public knowledge. What RAM that is actually applied to the B-2 is secret, of course.

For each axis, the aircraft is rotated and its RCS is recorded throughout the movement. For pitch, imagine the aircraft is rotating nose-up or nose-down while the viewer is looking at the aircraft's straight on. The highest peaks are when the viewer is looking at the top and bottom of the aircraft. For roll, the viewer is looking at a wing tip and the aircraft is rotated wing tip up or wing tip down. Keep in mind the cockpit and engine intake bulges on the aircraft's topside while the bottom is relatively more even. For yaw, the viewer is looking at the aircraft's either from a nose on or exhaust perspective and the aircraft is rotated sideways.

The question is whether or not applying RAM to the Su-series, and that include the J-11, will yield a net RCS reduction figures as how the B-2 was so reduced. The answer require that we put the basic Su body through intensive physical measurements and at the very least a predictive RCS reduction computer program. How good is that software? That is a chance someone with sufficient authority has to take. The better alternative is to actually apply one of these commercially available RAM to a clean body, take it out on a radar range, assuming one has such facilities, and perform comparative radar measurements.

It would not be honest to use the 'cost is no object' argument since any application of RAM will yield a net RCS reduction and if cost is not an obstacle then even a %.0001 net reduction is worth the effort, therefore this debate is pointless. The question is made even more complicated by the fact that an RCS figure decreases as distance increases. So if there is a net RCS reduction figure, at what distance in a closing situation, will this reduction is worth the investment? A reduction that decreases effective detection range from 200km down to 190km is not really worth the investment. But if the reduction decreased effective detection range from 200km to 150km or lower, in other words, the attacker is 50km closer to his targets before the defenders are alerted to his presence, then it might be worth considering. What if one side gained 50km but the other side, due to technology issues, gained only 10km, on the same or similar body type?

Because an aircraft is a complex body and given the fact that other than the US, the world is still struggling with passive RCS techniques such as RAM, it might be better to discard RAM as a consideration and concentrate on weapons related issues. The Su basic body may not be so financially worthwhile UNTIL an extensive technical investigation is performed. If during this investigative period, it is found that the basic Su body, even with RAM applied and there is a net RCS reduction, can still be detected with the less sophisticated threshold detection scheme, then it would not be worth the modification. Since the detection scheme, standard threshold or the more sophisticated peak method, is on 'the other side', the issue is not confined to merely how much in percentage is the reduction but also include how good is the enemy's radar capabilities. If 'the other side' found out that his enemy's radar capabilities is not comparable to his own, and if he can afford the investment, then what was previously thought as not worthwhile may be very worthwhile after all.

Who does NOT need the more sophisticated peak detection method? How about civilian air traffic controllers? What need are there for them to pick up large airliners that also carries transponders? The RAM subject in this debate, because it involve an honest assessment of one's potential enemies and their detection capabilities, is not a straight forward 'Yea' or 'Nay' answer.
 
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not to forget, canards is a big factor..

I don't think canards play HUGE difference in RCS, both the Eurofighter and Rafale have them and they still claim to have pretty low RCS, in ranges of around 1m2. I may be wrong here, but i don't think canards will cause RCS to jump significantly.
 
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There are some benefits, else Boeing would not have produced the F-15 Silent Eagle. That said...The Su-series, and that include the J-11, may not be as amenable to the application of RAM and the even more drastic measure of airframe and planform modifications. Not technically impossible, just may be not as worthwhile in terms of cost/benefits analysis.

Here is why...

fdd52f91d3b78c6ac81ce67dc3ec1ed7.jpg


An aircraft is first and foremost, for any attempt at RCS reduction, a complex body. Failure to accept this fact will result in wasted resources and under a dictatorial regime, loss of one's head in payment for those wasted resources. For radar detection, a complex body is a 'Swerling' type target...

Peak Detection of Swerling type Targets. Part 1. Detection Probabilities in White Noise

Basically...A complex body ALWAYS produces diverse echo points from its many different surfaces. Against background radiation, or 'clutter', these diverse echoes not only stands out but also clustered. Some of the smaller echoes will fall within the clutter region and will be filtered out by the radar computer. Some of the smaller echoes may come from a sharp edge, like the leading edge of a wing, and when the aircraft execute a maneuver, this particular surface can come to be the dominant echo in the total RCS summation.

Threshold detection algorithms just simply remember any and all echo points that rose above the clutter region and keep that cluster in memory -- a 'target' is qualified and displayed on the scope. Peak detection scheme is more complex in that not only does the radar computer begin recording an echo point that is above clutter but continue recording until that echo die. The result is the above image that contain a 3-axes graphical locations of those echo points and a 'stickman' like aircraft composited from those echo points. Threshold detection scheme is unofficially 'good enough' for F-15 equivalent bodies and that include the Su-series. Peak detection scheme is best against F-16 equivalent bodies and that include the single engine J-10.

These echo points varies not only from scan to scan -- main beam movement -- but from pulse to pulse -- inside the transmission itself. So it is clear that against US 'stealth' aircrafts, peak detection scheme is required but remain doubtful that a target is qualified since their bodies, including the estimated highest echo points, are designed to be reflective within the clutter region. The word 'doubtful' here is intended to be taken in a statistical context, not that those echo points are nonexistent. They are very real. The word 'complex' refers to EVERYTHING on the body and for military aircrafts, that includes miscellaneous items like pylons and the protruding bolts that attach them to the wings, ordnance, the many antennas types, etc...etc...If a radar system is primitive enough to have only a threshold detection scheme, it is likely that it will display an F-22 or F-35 only within visual range, but then it will be too late.

32e2ac203a90c02c289e827ccb2b434d.jpg


8a356ac4f9eb6ce310d2db59c7f02a74.jpg


8292142cdb9fe8644b0a85a4c919237d.jpg


1b501bde47de485fb7b253a92b82070a.jpg


CAUTION...DO NOT for a moment believe that those are the true RCS figures of the B-2. The aircraft's general physical profiles are public enough since we flew the aircraft to many places in the world. What we see are estimated figures ran through a predictive RCS program that happened to include commercially available RAM, such as those applied to airport radomes, and their electrical properties are also public knowledge. What RAM that is actually applied to the B-2 is secret, of course.

For each axis, the aircraft is rotated and its RCS is recorded throughout the movement. For pitch, imagine the aircraft is rotating nose-up or nose-down while the viewer is looking at the aircraft's straight on. The highest peaks are when the viewer is looking at the top and bottom of the aircraft. For roll, the viewer is looking at a wing tip and the aircraft is rotated wing tip up or wing tip down. Keep in mind the cockpit and engine intake bulges on the aircraft's topside while the bottom is relatively more even. For yaw, the viewer is looking at the aircraft's either from a nose on or exhaust perspective and the aircraft is rotated sideways.

The question is whether or not applying RAM to the Su-series, and that include the J-11, will yield a net RCS reduction figures as how the B-2 was so reduced. The answer require that we put the basic Su body through intensive physical measurements and at the very least a predictive RCS reduction computer program. How good is that software? That is a chance someone with sufficient authority has to take. The better alternative is to actually apply one of these commercially available RAM to a clean body, take it out on a radar range, assuming one has such facilities, and perform comparative radar measurements.

It would not be honest to use the 'cost is no object' argument since any application of RAM will yield a net RCS reduction and if cost is not an obstacle then even a %.0001 net reduction is worth the effort, therefore this debate is pointless. The question is made even more complicated by the fact that an RCS figure decreases as distance increases. So if there is a net RCS reduction figure, at what distance in a closing situation, will this reduction is worth the investment? A reduction that decreases effective detection range from 200km down to 190km is not really worth the investment. But if the reduction decreased effective detection range from 200km to 150km or lower, in other words, the attacker is 50km closer to his targets before the defenders are alerted to his presence, then it might be worth considering. What if one side gained 50km but the other side, due to technology issues, gained only 10km, on the same or similar body type?

Because an aircraft is a complex body and given the fact that other than the US, the world is still struggling with passive RCS techniques such as RAM, it might be better to discard RAM as a consideration and concentrate on weapons related issues. The Su basic body may not be so financially worthwhile UNTIL an extensive technical investigation is performed. If during this investigative period, it is found that the basic Su body, even with RAM applied and there is a net RCS reduction, can still be detected with the less sophisticated threshold detection scheme, then it would not be worth the modification. Since the detection scheme, standard threshold or the more sophisticated peak method, is on 'the other side', the issue is not confined to merely how much in percentage is the reduction but also include how good is the enemy's radar capabilities. If 'the other side' found out that his enemy's radar capabilities is not comparable to his own, and if he can afford the investment, then what was previously thought as not worthwhile may be very worthwhile after all.

Who does NOT need the more sophisticated peak detection method? How about civilian air traffic controllers? What need are there for them to pick up large airliners that also carries transponders? The RAM subject in this debate, because it involve an honest assessment of one's potential enemies and their detection capabilities, is not a straight forward 'Yea' or 'Nay' answer.

Dear gambit; sir!

i was realy waiting , so long to have a "airforce specialist" on this thread, i was hoping to see you, & MR, MURADK , on this thread.
frist of all, its been a great pleasure to have you & your great experinces , on this thread!:cheers::tup:

dear sir, can you elaborate , THE THREAD STARTER , what it will take to a j-11B to become same or nearly same, class fighter a/c , like SU-30MKI, technicly?
thanks & have a good day!:smitten:
 
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i would beg to differ on this point ....im not saying RCS MKI will be very small but it certainly is not as big as su-27 A & B or even MKKs for that matter

dear, Haanzo; sir!
i am impressed , by your accounts on the thread, although its not neccecry to agree the , points you had mentioned , on the thread but, you are doing fine, i hope you will be doing , fine!:tup::cheers:
thanks & have a good day!:):smokin:
 
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Russian-Chinese Su-33 fighter deal collapses

Air Force News — By Editor on March 11, 2009 at 6:31 am

MOSCOW: Russia has refused to sell its Su-33 carrier-based fighters to China over fears that Beijing could produce cheaper export versions of the aircraft, a Russian daily said on Tuesday.

The Moskovsky Komsomolets newspaper said that China and Russia had been in negotiations on the sale of 50 of the Su-33 Flanker-D fighters, to be used on future Chinese aircraft carriers, since 2006, but that the talks collapsed recently over China's request for an initial delivery of two aircraft for a "trial."

Russian Defense Ministry sources confirmed that the refusal was due to findings that China had produced its own copycat version of the Su-27SK fighter jet in violation of intellectual property agreements.

In 1995, China secured a $2.5-billion production license from Russia to build 200 Su-27SKs, dubbed J-11A, at the Shenyang Aircraft Corp.

The deal required the aircraft to be outfitted with Russian avionics, radars and engines. Russia cancelled the arrangement in 2006 after it discovered that China was developing an indigenous version, J-11B, with Chinese avionics and systems. The decision came after China had already produced 95 aircraft. ;):tup:
This time, Russia refused the Chinese offer even after Beijing had offered to buy 14 Su-33 aircraft, saying that at least 24 jets should be sold to recoup production costs.

However, the Moskovsky Komsomolets said that the Su-33 deal may be reviewed later because China desperately needs carrier-based aircraft to equip its first indigenous 48,000-ton aircraft carrier, due to be built by 2011. Beijing has also announced plans to build a nuclear-powered aircraft-carrier by 2020.

Chinese media recently quoted China fleet commander Adm. Xu Hongmeng as saying: "China will very soon have its own aircraft carrier.":tup::whistle:

The Su-33 is a carrier-based multi-role fighter, which can perform a variety of air superiority, fleet defense, air support and reconnaissance missions. The aircraft entered service with the Russian Navy in 1995 and are currently deployed on board the Nikolai Kuznetsov aircraft carrier.

Russian Su-33 naval fighters are significantly cheaper than any similar foreign models, such as the French Rafale-M, or the U.S F-35C or the F/A-22N Sea Raptor:whistle:.
 
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^^^ same to you mate ....:-)

now let me add something to the chinese su-33 saga ...lets see from a russian point of view

1) no. of aircraft ordered is very less close to 25 in numbers this is a big indicator that chinese are gonna build a copy of su-33 coz you plan to have 2 aircraft carriers in the near future and you order just 25 aircraft ---thats seriously low man comparing to india the contract has an option of close to 50 mig-29k in total but the chinese dont want su-33 in that numbers why ---looking at j-11 its hard to dismiss the fact that they will resist copying su-33 coz most of the aircraft is close to su-27 or the j-11 so if they copy the landing gears some navigational aids and some more stuff about the canards on the su-33 VOILA they have a new j-11 series aircraft LOL

2) russia bieng export oriented in defence equipment does not want to loose market in terms of copys --- just like hollywood guys are facing pirated DVDs the russians are also facing the same problem yes the copy might not be as good as the original one but for 70% effectiveness of the copy you pay around 40% of the original price so you have numbers this way....and later IF they develope modern avionics through development OR espionage they can easily upgrade those aircrafts ---hence the russians are reluctant to sell aircrafts to them right now especially the sukhoi series
 
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Russian-Chinese Su-33 fighter deal collapses

Air Force News — By Editor on March 11, 2009 at 6:31 am

MOSCOW: Russia has refused to sell its Su-33 carrier-based fighters to China over fears that Beijing could produce cheaper export versions of the aircraft, a Russian daily said on Tuesday.

The Moskovsky Komsomolets newspaper said that China and Russia had been in negotiations on the sale of 50 of the Su-33 Flanker-D fighters, to be used on future Chinese aircraft carriers, since 2006, but that the talks collapsed recently over China's request for an initial delivery of two aircraft for a "trial."

Russian Defense Ministry sources confirmed that the refusal was due to findings that China had produced its own copycat version of the Su-27SK fighter jet in violation of intellectual property agreements.

In 1995, China secured a $2.5-billion production license from Russia to build 200 Su-27SKs, dubbed J-11A, at the Shenyang Aircraft Corp.

The deal required the aircraft to be outfitted with Russian avionics, radars and engines. Russia cancelled the arrangement in 2006 after it discovered that China was developing an indigenous version, J-11B, with Chinese avionics and systems. The decision came after China had already produced 95 aircraft. ;):tup:
This time, Russia refused the Chinese offer even after Beijing had offered to buy 14 Su-33 aircraft, saying that at least 24 jets should be sold to recoup production costs.

However, the Moskovsky Komsomolets said that the Su-33 deal may be reviewed later because China desperately needs carrier-based aircraft to equip its first indigenous 48,000-ton aircraft carrier, due to be built by 2011. Beijing has also announced plans to build a nuclear-powered aircraft-carrier by 2020.

Chinese media recently quoted China fleet commander Adm. Xu Hongmeng as saying: "China will very soon have its own aircraft carrier.":tup::whistle:

The Su-33 is a carrier-based multi-role fighter, which can perform a variety of air superiority, fleet defense, air support and reconnaissance missions. The aircraft entered service with the Russian Navy in 1995 and are currently deployed on board the Nikolai Kuznetsov aircraft carrier.

Russian Su-33 naval fighters are significantly cheaper than any similar foreign models, such as the French Rafale-M, or the U.S F-35C or the F/A-22N Sea Raptor:whistle:.


Oops.. So not even Russia is ready to sell planes to China ?? :rofl:
 
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