What is wrong with the Taliban?

[fhassan]

Greetings

I plan to converse in this thread, and will input greatly in some days. At this moment in time however, I am too busy to participate fruitfully.

Suffice to say - Rules of engagement are derived from Quran. Anything that contradicts Qur'an is to be disgarded. Our secondary source is hadith - this is a collection of sayings of the Holy Prophet peace be upon him.

I can see that Solomon has been brainwashed with the usual anti-Islam propaganda, and mark my words I will rip this to shreads after the 20th of May.

Interim, From Qur'an:

Regarding War:

Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities.Lo! Allah loves not, aggressors.

(Al-Baqarah 2:190)

The taliban are fighting the general public - and blowing up and harming the public who are not even fighting them, and so they are not following Islam. In fact, suidide is also forbidden in the Qur'an.

If any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people. - Quran 5:32

Another ayah that is often misunderstood:

Quran surah 9 ayah 1-7

A (declaration) of immunity from Allah and His Apostle, to those of the Pagans with whom ye have contracted mutual alliances:-

Go ye, then, for four months, backwards and forwards, (as ye will), throughout the land, but know ye that ye cannot frustrate Allah (by your falsehood) but that Allah will cover with shame those who reject Him.

And an announcement from Allah and His Apostle, to the people (assembled) on the day of the Great Pilgrimage,- that Allah and His Apostle dissolve (treaty) obligations with the Pagans. If then, ye repent, it were best for you; but if ye turn away, know ye that ye cannot frustrate Allah. And proclaim a grievous penalty to those who reject Faith.

(But the treaties are) not dissolved with those Pagans with whom ye have entered into alliance and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor aided any one against you. So fulfil your engagements with them to the end of their term: for Allah loveth the righteous.

But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

If one amongst the Pagans ask thee for asylum, grant it to him, so that he may hear the word of Allah; and then escort him to where he can be secure. That is because they are men without knowledge.

How can there be a league, before Allah and His Apostle, with the Pagans, except those with whom ye made a treaty near the sacred Mosque? As long as these stand true to you, stand ye true to them: for Allah doth love the righteous.

We see in the above passages - there was a group of pagans who broke a treaty and that is why war resulted. (the group of pagans actually aided a group who were at war with the Muslims) - even so, muslims are not permitted to fight kill an enemy who seeks refuge.

Regarding treaties:

Fulfill the covenant of God when you have entered into it, and break not your oaths after you have confirmed them; indeed you have made God your surety; for God knows all that you do…

An-Nahl 16:91)

- If however there is a chance of the other side breaking the treaty, and the muslims fear such a thing, they are permitted to go back to the origonal situation - on EQUAL terms:

If you fear treachery from any group, throw back [their covenant] to them, [so as to be] on equal terms: for God loves not the treacherous.

(Al-Anfal 8:58)

 

[Ghareeb_Da_Baal]

It seems these things have been accepted in the past:
Ibn Qudama: "It is permitted to surprise the infidels under cover of night, to bombard them with mangonels [artillery Mohammed introduced to the Arabian peninsula] and attack them without declaring battle...it is forbidden to kill children, madmen, women, priests..."

Al-Mawardi: "If they use their women and children as shields in battle, then one must avoid killing them and aim only at killing the men; if however, it is impossible to kill them except by killing the women and children, then it is permitted" [al-Ahkam as-Sulataniyyah]

Sounds like Pope Urban!
I guess when the crusaders killed muslim men , women & children( jews too), they were following the man-god of Christianity. I guess no one can claim a higher moral ground ,but then christians for example, are not very moved by "collateral damage" against innocent muslims so I guess everyone is right!

 

[Ghareeb_Da_Baal]

From my point of view, they have walked exactly in the footprints of Mohammed

How is that? What religion are you , just out of curiosity?

 

[fhassan]

just to add to my above post - you will never find anything in the Qur'an that is as violent and brutal as something in the Torah:

Number 31:

17Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.

18But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

in fact - the army here is ordered to keep the virgins ONLY - so that they may habe sex with them later.

I wonder how our jewish friend reconciles this with his primary post?

- the debate is on my friend, lets see what your made of (as stated earlier, i will participate better after 20th may)

 

[Ghareeb_Da_Baal]

new Testament is no better........
jesus is tells his people that they must buy sword even if they have to sell their possessions & that he ( jesus, that is ) has brought sword , not peace!
No one has killed more than Christianity to date & yet these people come here acting like a smart ***.

As for the indans here complaining about middle east........ well why do they go there , live & work there & do business with them if they are so bad?

 

[zombie]

As for the indans here complaining about middle east........ well why do they go there , live & work there & do business with them if they are so bad?

They go and work there. Its honest labour. Not beg from uncle and receive free aid for killing your own citizens.

btw quite a few pakistanis here complain about the US racial issues against muslims etc. Why go there or to UK or Holland?.... and please pose the same questions to them.

If you want to enjoy flaming you just have to ask.

 

[Solomon2]

There seems to be some sort of misunderstanding here. This isn't some comparative religion exercise. If you believe Islam is perfect, then it stands on its own and is complete; it need not justify itself through comparison with other religions but through its own content and there the correct answers must be found.

I plan to converse in this thread, and will input greatly in some days. At this moment in time however, I am too busy to participate fruitfully.

Take your time. I appreciate careful, contextual, and internally consistent arguments - to me, that's good scholarship. For example, the Al-Baqarah quote

Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities.Lo! Allah loves not, aggressors.

seems to be amply countered by the Al Baqarah quote

Him whose feet have become dusty in the way of God [i.e., jihad] will God save from hellfire.

Taken together, these two (out-of-context?) quotes from the same source imply something like, "Yes, G-d may not like aggressors for Islam much, but they'll still get into Paradise."

 

[wtf]

just to add to my above post - you will never find anything in the Qur'an that is as violent and brutal as something in the Torah:

Number 31:

17Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.

18But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

in fact - the army here is ordered to keep the virgins ONLY - so that they may habe sex with them later.

I wonder how our jewish friend reconciles this with his primary post?

- the debate is on my friend, lets see what your made of (as stated earlier, i will participate better after 20th may)

I'd be the first to accept that many old Hindu texts are full of crazy ideas. I'll gladly accept that Hindu texts have errors and that sometimes they conflict with other Hindu texts. But Hindus do not treat the books as infallible. None of it (except marriage rules) are even valid under Indian constitution. The same goes for Jews. Jews/Israel don't use their books to judge criminal offenses. Also Christianity -there is no country in the world where the criminal system (or even civil court) is based on the bible.

Most of these books describe justice systems of the past - Hindu texts from 2000BC, Jewish one from 1000BC, Christian ones from 1st-13th century AD etc. It is generally accepted that those rules of justice no longer apply in today's world.

On the other hand, in places like Saudi, Iran, Taliban-land etc. Quran is seen as perfect and not subject to questioning. That is the discrepancy that is being questioned - not how much bad stuff is there in anyone's books.

 

[S-2]

So much for this not becoming a comparative religion thread.

Information battle was lost. Unusual for the taliban but you guys go and enjoy.

 

[Ghareeb_Da_Baal]

They go and work there. Its honest labour. Not beg from uncle and receive free aid for killing your own citizens.

btw quite a few pakistanis here complain about the US racial issues against muslims etc. Why go there or to UK or Holland?.... and please pose the same questions to them.

If you want to enjoy flaming you just have to ask.

Boy, have some kahunas to take some criticism in the least. Seems I hit a nerve & some ur behind is on flames!I guess my comments pretty much ruined your day & set ur *** on fire!
India has done a pretty good job of killing non hindus without any incentive! Would you like to research on that? BTW, despite the progress, you have the most beggars in the world so If I were you, I d shut the $%^& up!
lastly, you dont have what it takes to flame me. Why that is? because indians are the most blinded people!

 

[Ghareeb_Da_Baal]

Most of these books describe justice systems of the past - Hindu texts from 2000BC, Jewish one from 1000BC, Christian ones from 1st-13th century AD etc. It is generally accepted that those rules of justice no longer apply in today's world.

The thing is that it is for the jews and/or christians to decide what validity or lack thereof they give to their scripture. it is not for , say a muslim to criticize someone else's religion or lack of it!

You do not realize that regardless of their present day practice, the catholics believe that the Church will eventually run the affairs of the world, the jewish messiah will rule & judge according to Torah.
They both believe that their messiah will kill the non believer. ( evangelicals go so far as to state that 2/3rd jews will be killed & the rest converted to Christianity)
If you think taliban are bad, you aint seen nothing yet!

 

[Durran3]

I'd be the first to accept that many old Hindu texts are full of crazy ideas. I'll gladly accept that Hindu texts have errors and that sometimes they conflict with other Hindu texts. But Hindus do not treat the books as infallible. None of it (except marriage rules) are even valid under Indian constitution. The same goes for Jews. Jews/Israel don't use their books to judge criminal offenses. Also Christianity -there is no country in the world where the criminal system (or even civil court) is based on the bible.

Most of these books describe justice systems of the past - Hindu texts from 2000BC, Jewish one from 1000BC, Christian ones from 1st-13th century AD etc. It is generally accepted that those rules of justice no longer apply in today's world.

On the other hand, in places like Saudi, Iran, Taliban-land etc. Quran is seen as perfect and not subject to questioning. That is the discrepancy that is being questioned - not how much bad stuff is there in anyone's books.

I agree.. I am not for Religious institutions governing in any way or form.. but there are many Christians and Jews as well who believe in the Literal word of the scripture and to say they don't is complete ignorance why don't you look at other Muslims Countries like

Indonesia (The Largest Muslim Country in the World), Turkey or Bangladesh, even Pakistan. Before Taliban-Land during Zahir Shah's regieme Afghanistan wasn't ruled as religious clergy and neither was Iran before the revolution. The only country that claimed religious clergy and a monarchy was and is Saudia Arabia.

 

[Ghareeb_Da_Baal]

There seems to be some sort of misunderstanding here. This isn't some comparative religion exercise. If you believe Islam is perfect, then it stands on its own and is complete; it need not justify itself through comparison with other religions but through its own content and there the correct answers must be found.


Take your time. I appreciate careful, contextual, and internally consistent arguments - to me, that's good scholarship. For example, the Al-Baqarah quote

seems to be amply countered by the Al Baqarah quote

Taken together, these two (out-of-context?) quotes from the same source imply something like, "Yes, G-d may not like aggressors for Islam much, but they'll still get into Paradise."

You have to be the dumbest *** clown in the world!
The implication is your own so dwell on it freely.
There is no "but they'll still get into Paradise" as I read what you have quoted. Now, you being a jewsih person, should know better or do you want your nose to grow even longer?

 

[wtf]

The thing is that it is for the jews and/or christians to decide what validity or lack thereof they give to their scripture. it is not for , say a muslim to criticize someone else's religion or lack of it!

You do not realize that regardless of their present day practice, the catholics believe that the Church will eventually run the affairs of the world, the jewish messiah will rule & judge according to Torah.
They both believe that their messiah will kill the non believer. ( evangelicals go so far as to state that 2/3rd jews will be killed & the rest converted to Christianity)
If you think taliban are bad, you aint seen nothing yet!

To the first point -- That is exactly what Solomon2 started the thread for. He was asking whether anyone can criticize Taliban if they are the truest followers of Islam. He is asking whether a literal interpretation of Quran+Hadith would make someone a truer Muslim than others. (OK, he did phrase the question in a way that can start a fight, but in the truest sense, that's all they asked).

Catholics certainly do not believe whatever you said. The pope even recently opened a loophole for non-believers into heaven

Pope Says Nonbelievers Can Be Saved Even Without Faith in Jesus Christ
Pope Says That Non-Christians Can Be Saved!

You also forget that parts of India have large Catholic population - and they are the nicest people. I also lived in Spain and have talked to Opus Dei priests (they run many colleges there and I sat in on an ethics lecture by a priest) . They are claimed to discriminate against non-christians, but from their behavior I could not find anything that indicated them thinking that my religion was wrong. We were in an international group and they took us with them to a prayer and the prayer talked about "the light" rather than Jesus.

Again evangelicals do have some power in US. But living in the US, I can see first hand how much influence they have -almost none in most parts. Sure, if you go down to Utah and say that Christ did not exist, you can start a fight. That's the worst damage they do. They have been trying to ban gay marriage and stop abortions for a while and even that has not succeeded. (Note: I have partial sympathy for the abortions cause).


Most importantly, no Christian ever has picked up a gun and tried to impose their view of the religion for about fifty years now. Franco of Spain probably was the last.

 

[Ghareeb_Da_Baal]

To the first point -- That is exactly what Solomon2 started the thread for. He was asking whether anyone can criticize Taliban if they are the truest followers of Islam. He is asking whether a literal interpretation of Quran+Hadith would make someone a truer Muslim than others. (OK, he did phrase the question in a way that can start a fight, but in the truest sense, that's all they asked).

Catholics certainly do not believe whatever you said. The pope even recently opened a loophole for non-believers into heaven

Pope Says Nonbelievers Can Be Saved Even Without Faith in Jesus Christ
Pope Says That Non-Christians Can Be Saved!

You also forget that parts of India have large Catholic population - and they are the nicest people. I also lived in Spain and have talked to Opus Dei priests (they run many colleges there and I sat in on an ethics lecture by a priest) . They are claimed to discriminate against non-christians, but from their behavior I could not find anything that indicated them thinking that my religion was wrong. We were in an international group and they took us with them to a prayer and the prayer talked about "the light" rather than Jesus.

Again evangelicals do have some power in US. But living in the US, I can see first hand how much influence they have -almost none in most parts. Sure, if you go down to Utah and say that Christ did not exist, you can start a fight. That's the worst damage they do. They have been trying to ban gay marriage and stop abortions for a while and even that has not succeeded. (Note: I have partial sympathy for the abortions cause).


Most importantly, no Christian ever has picked up a gun and tried to impose their view of the religion for about fifty years now. Franco of Spain probably was the last.

Thanks for the clarification............
I ll try to answer atleast one questions in short .
Plenty of muslims have criticized Talibans. That is nothing new.
There is no compulsion in Islam. Now if someone follows Islam to the letter to say 99% and then 1% is from their own manipulation of verses & such, well they just ruined all the good that they may have done. I hope this clears thing up a bit.
The problem with Muslims is that they dont follow Al-Islam & yet they expect divine help to bail them out. It doesnt work that way. I , for example try to follow Quran & Sunah and not some arab scholar that I ve never heard. Even if I did study them , I am under no obligation to follow their rulings.
As for what the Catholics/Evengelic & Jews believe regarding those who do not follow their belief, pls do your own research & you will see what I am talking about as that is a separate thread on its own!

But i would like to point out regarding the Papal decree that for some that is too little , too late & is not binding on non-catholics christians. I know some middle eastern christians & things they saw are crazy considering how secular their outlook is.
PS. I ve lived in the West for a very long time so I know what your are talking about & would agree with some of the things you have pointed out. I do believe that most american as christians are very decent people!