What is wrong with the Taliban?

[Durran3]

Most importantly, no Christian ever has picked up a gun and tried to impose their view of the religion for about fifty years now. Franco of Spain probably was the last.

The Human mind is very Short term.. since you only see what you experience or hear in your lifetime... With that being said fifty years is nothing compared to the last 1000 years, this argument is moot..

They can't impose their religion at gun point because they are accountable to a secular government who will prosecute them. Give some hardcore evangelicals anarchy and than we might have completely different results.. Also its not all about Gun point conversation but how others are indirectly discriminated against as in the case of Israel.

When you have a Religious state than when you go on a Conversion rampage its not looked down upon in fact encouraged. Again..history has enough evidence to support this argument and also in the case of Taliban since they are NOT accountable to any state and claim to be the state.

God bless Secularism if you ask me..

 

[zubair723]

Hey all of my brothers..( no need to clarify who falls in this category). Stop looking in WEST's mirror. No matter how hard you all try, you will never be accepted. To discover your own, read QURAN, nothing else. One can easily discover own faults & correct them if we take QURAN as the mirror & the only 'arbitrator' of all our internal conflicts.

 

[Ghareeb_Da_Baal]

There is something I don't understand...the Taliban say they seek a more perfect form of Islam, yes? From my point of view, they have walked exactly in the footprints of Mohammed: they've spent years inculcating followers and building warrior ethics, made a show of imposing some needed justice, and made temporary treaties that were deceptions to attain power.

So what is it they are doing wrong, exactly? Why are so many Pakistanis, who claim to be Muslims, now opposed to the Taliban, who possess no religion-based moral inconsistencies that I can perceive?

Now that I have some more free time at hand I would like to analyze what you posted & pretending to as a question in good faith. (BS)
Here us the breakdown of your so called Ignorance in your own words. ( bifurcated for clarity):
Muhammad inculcated warriors;
Built or enacted warrior ethics;
Made a show of imposing some needed justice;
Made temporary treaties that were deceptions to attain power.
You pretend as if you are asking a question & seeking knowledge
wheer as your question is a statement in reality that is based on
the poison that you have been taught & raised with.

Please do us a favor & do read your own history , preferably the sanitized version of old testament!

Forget the history , strangely enough the state of Israel has beat Muhammad to it with its deceptions ,games & treaties with it non jewish neighbors !

 

[Ghareeb_Da_Baal]

Lets turn to the Old Testament. For the moment, focus your attention on the Book of Numbers.

You are about to learn that Moses ORDERED his followers to commit war crimes. The most heinous were crimes were committed against women and children. Moses ordered:
The slaughter of non-combatant women prisoners.
The slaughter of non-combatant young boy prisoners.
The use of young girl prisoners as Israelite sex slaves.

How Moses treated Gentile women and children.

Background: In Exodus Chapter 2, Moses flees Egypt because he has killed an Egyptian. He passes through the land of the Midianites, who befriend him. Moses lived among them for a while and “took to wife” a Midianite woman, Zipporah. Moses and Zipporah have a son, Gershom.
The Israelites , in the meantime are getting too "friendly" with the Midianites. A significant number of Israelites start cohabiting with Midianite girls and worshipping Midianite gods.

Moses orders the beheading of the Israelites who are encouraging the mix. A divine plague — presumably sent by Jehovah kills 24,000 of the offending Israelites.
Numbers Chapter 25 urges Israelites to “vex” and “smite” or “harass” the Midianites.
Time passes. Jehovah and Moses spend Chapter 26 of Numbers organizing a huge census and Chapters 27, 28, 29 and 30 laying down various laws for the Israelites.

But by Numbers Chapter 31 — for reasons not explained — Jehovah’s attention becomes fastened once more on the Midianites. He orders Moses to kill them. Why? For what happened in Chapter 25.

Thus Jehovah orders an unprovoked attack on Moses’ in-laws. Not a problem. Moses sends off thousands of his troops to slay them.

The Israelites kill the five Midianite kings and all the other Midianite adult males. They loot the cities and burn them, and take the women and children in captivity.

But when they return, Moses is furious. “Have you kept all the women alive? These women caused the children of Israel to trespass against the Lord . . .” (New King James translation, Verses 15, 16).

Moses then orders:

1) all the non-virgin women captives to be killed

2) all the boy children captives to be killed

3) all the virgin girl captives to be saved for the use of the Israelite men.

Check out Numbers, Chapter 31, King James Version

(13) And Moses, and Eleazar the priest, and all the princes of the congregation, went forth to meet them without the camp.

(14) And Moses was wroth with the officers of the host, with the captains over thousands, and captains over hundreds, which came from the battle.

(15) And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive?

(16) Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the LORD in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the LORD.

(17) Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.

( 18 ) But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

(13) Moses, Eleazar the priest, and all the leaders of the community went to meet them outside the camp. (14) But Moses was furious with all the generals and captains [a] who had returned from the battle.

(15) “Why have you let all the women live?” he demanded.

(16) “These are the very ones who followed Balaam’s advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the Lord at Mount Peor. They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the Lord’s people.

(17) So kill all the boys and all the women who have had intercourse with a man.

( 18 ) Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves.

The rest of Chapter 31 is concerned with distributing the Midianite plunder. Thirty-two thousand (32,000) virgin girls were counted in the booty (Verse 35). Thirty-two of these were given to “the Lord.” That is, 32 of these little girls were set aside for the Levities (heave offerings), to be used as concubines (Verses 40 and 41).

 

[zubair723]

When these WESTERN Hypocrites kill women & children. Its collateral damage. Its this Hypocrisy which is leading towards there ultimate fall.

 

[parihaka]

Well, personally I'm what you fellas might call a godless pagan and frankly Islam, Christianity and for all I know Judaism have all had a fair crack at killing my kith and kin based on the 'good books'.
All this 'your doctrine says kill' 'no your doctrine is worse' argument is all the same to me, why not just fess up and admit all your books if taken literally can be interpreted to recommend a bit of slaughter, rape and pillage now and again? Not like there haven't been plenty of 'Holy Wars' to go around.....

 

[Ghareeb_Da_Baal]

Well, personally I'm what you fellas might call a godless pagan and frankly Islam, Christianity and for all I know Judaism have all had a fair crack at killing my kith and kin based on the 'good books'.
All this 'your doctrine says kill' 'no your doctrine is worse' argument is all the same to me, why not just fess up and admit all your books if taken literally can be interpreted to recommend a bit of slaughter, rape and pillage now and again? Not like there haven't been plenty of 'Holy Wars' to go around.....

Very interesting & frank observation indeed!
The purpose of what I posted was not to trash any religion but to point out to the poster that before criticizing someone else, pls do take a look at his own history.
All religions, ideologies & ideas have contributed to controversial events, wars & such directly or in-directly so I guess no one can claim a higher moral ground.

 

[parihaka]

Very interesting & frank observation indeed!

Thank you

The purpose of what I posted was not to trash any religion but to point out to the poster that before criticizing someone else, pls do take a look at his own history.
All religions, ideologies & ideas have contributed to controversial events, wars & such directly or in-directly so I guess no one can claim a higher moral ground.

My thoughts exactly.
I'd suggest the original posters intent was to enflame you for his personal entertainment. If anything, an example of how words can be misused for bad purpose.
Any message, no matter how wise, can be interpreted to justify evil deeds, but those evil deeds exist in the perpetrators hearts, not the various words of the monotheistic God that I've read.

 

[Solomon2]

Thanks for the clarification............
I ll try to answer atleast one questions in short .
Plenty of muslims have criticized Talibans. That is nothing new.
There is no compulsion in Islam.

I think the full quote from the Koran:

There is no compulsion in religion; truly the right way has become clearly distinct from error; therefore, whoever disbelieves in the Shaitan and believes in Allah he indeed has laid hold on the firmest handle, which shall not break off, and Allah is Hearing, Knowing.

presupposes that the person in question accepts what is "clearly distinct from error". That leaves a lot of room for "compulsion". There has been a lot of that in Islamic history, the Taliban are just a current example.

Now if someone follows Islam to the letter to say 99% and then 1% is from their own manipulation of verses & such, well they just ruined all the good that they may have done. I hope this clears thing up a bit.

What constitutes "manipulation of verses & such"?

The problem with Muslims is that they dont follow Al-Islam & yet they expect divine help to bail them out. It doesnt work that way. I , for example try to follow Quran & Sunah and not some arab scholar that I ve never heard. Even if I did study them , I am under no obligation to follow their rulings.

Why would "divine help" be expected even if Muslims did "follow Al-Islam"? Are you receiving divine help in these matters? So what are the Taliban doing wrong?

The purpose of what I posted was not to trash any religion but to point out to the poster that before criticizing someone else, pls do take a look at his own history.

IMO, what you were posting was "trashing". More importantly, it was a distraction from the issue at hand.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

... From my point of view, they have walked exactly in the footprints of Mohammed...

...So what is it they are doing wrong, exactly? Why are so many Pakistanis, who claim to be Muslims, now opposed to the Taliban, who possess no religion-based moral inconsistencies that I can perceive?

Your question is based on a flawed premise - you have to first prove that the Taliban are indeed following in Muhammad's footsteps before trying to ask why Muslims should oppose the Taliban.

Without categorically showing the Taliban as following the teachings of Muhammed and the Quran, your argument has no merit.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

There is no compulsion in religion; truly the right way has become clearly distinct from error; therefore, whoever disbelieves in the Shaitan and believes in Allah he indeed has laid hold on the firmest handle, which shall not break off, and Allah is Hearing, Knowing.

"presupposes that the person in question accepts what is "clearly distinct from error". That leaves a lot of room for "compulsion"."

I don't see how that 'leaves a lot of room for compulsion' - the remainder of the verse clearly supports the 'no compulsion' command by stating that ' the right way is distinct from the wrong way', and the Verse 2:257 further cements the sole responsibility of Allah to judge and punish people for their choice:

...and Allah is Hearing, Knowing.

Allah is the Protecting Guardian of those who believe. He bringeth them out of darkness into light. As for those who disbelieve, their patrons are false deities. They bring them out of light into darkness. Such are rightful owners of the Fire. They will abide therein.

 

[Blossom]

There is something I don't understand.

and You never will

the Taliban say they seek a more perfect form of Islam, yes?

Hell No!!!

From my point of view, they have walked exactly in the footprints of Mohammed:

Well its just your point of view.Thank God it doesn't matter!!

they've spent years inculcating followers and building warrior ethics, made a show of imposing some needed justice, and made temporary treaties that were deceptions to attain power.

Well...inculcating followers and building warriors isnt meant to vitiate religion and the teachings of Prophet Muhammad by blowing up girls schools, holding innocent people captive (mostly hostage),threatening natives and perpetuating fear among people for both Muslims and Islam.Hence communicating a radical cult to the world!

So what is it they are doing wrong, exactly?

They are assasinating humanity EVERYDAY!!!

Why are so many Pakistanis, who claim to be Muslims, now opposed to the Taliban, who possess no religion-based moral inconsistencies that I can perceive?

*sigh*
Yes! We Pakistanis (all of us ) are up against Taliban and their unconscionable strategies because we want ALL pakistanis to live wioth absolute freedom(social/religious/other).and Mr.Solomon2 you're incapable of Perceiving anything.

 

[jeypore]

Your question is based on a flawed premise - you have to first prove that the Taliban are indeed following in Muhammad's footsteps before trying to ask why Muslims should oppose the Taliban.

Without categorically showing the Taliban as following the teachings of Muhammed and the Quran, your argument has no merit.

He does have a merit from a point of view from an outsider. The affinity of islam is the choice of the taliban. That alone makes one think, from an outside perceptive, why? The argument can be made very clearly, that what tailbans are, they are not following islam. But they are using islam as a prerequisite to modify there society and enviroment. In one way Salomon does ask a intriquing question, if the talibans are freely aloud to modify islam to there liking, why there is no outrage from the real followers.

And the most interesting question one should ask is, if they are not real muslims (per se). Why did Pakistan, which is islamic state, willingly give them sharia law, which is clearly against the founding father of Pakistan. In so doing compounded the refugee problem.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

He does have a merit from a point of view from an outsider. The affinity of islam is the choice of the taliban. That alone makes one think, from an outside perceptive, why?

Because they realize that faith has an important role in the lives of Pakistanis and they can manipulate their message to appeal to people who are tired of the government letting them down.

The argument can be made very clearly, that what tailbans are, they are not following islam. But they are using islam as a prerequisite to modify there society and enviroment. In one way Salomon does ask a intriquing question, if the talibans are freely aloud to modify islam to there liking, why there is no outrage from the real followers.

Why do you say there isn't outrage amongst real followers who realize what the Taliban are doing? I posted a few polls from TFT and Pew, and the all show extremely low support for terrorism and the Taliban.

I would argue that there is plenty of outrage from most Pakistanis on this forum who have read about Taliban activities in detail.

Those that are not outraged do not take that position because they agree with the Talban ideology, but because they believe the Taliban who commit these horrendous acts are not 'real Taliban' and sponsored by foreign elements to create chaos in Pakistan.

And the most interesting question one should ask is, if they are not real muslims (per se). Why did Pakistan, which is islamic state, willingly give them sharia law, which is clearly against the founding father of Pakistan. In so doing compounded the refugee problem.

That is a very flawed understanding of the NAR that was implemented. The NAR was a demand from Swat for over a decade, and the GoP had agreed in principle to change the legal system a long time ago, but never actually got around to formulating the regulations and implementing them. This has nothing to do with whether the Taliban follow Islam or not (sine the Taliban interpretations are not what is being introduced), and everything to do with following through with a promise that the GoP made, and attempting to find a peaceful solution to the insurgency.

However, the fact remains that Solomon2's argument has no merit unless he validates the underlying premise of the Taliban following the Quran and Muhammad's teachings.

 

[Ghareeb_Da_Baal]

Ok since AM & ilovef16 have sufficiently replied and aptly so to questions posed by king solomon, I ll leave it at that! Great job! exactly what I would ve replied.