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What identity pakistan should have?

And yet you buy into the pan Dharmic sanghi bull potty that Porus was Indian.

Priceless.

@django please read Arrian, John D. Clare, Herodotus. Thoda desi peeccha cchodo ....

Cheers, Doc



raja porus kingdom was in modern day punjab and jammu . i never said he was indian or pakistani although at that time there was no centre power in modern day pakistan nor india , just tribes and small kings here and there.

as for porus's contact with alexander, ., Greeks were tired and overstretched , the army was in half revolt and demoralized and porus'es elephants did the rest . destiny had to stop alexander at hydapese i guess

btw, alexandar's horse is buried near phalia, modern pakistan

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i have crushed indian trolls like you en masse on pakdef forum .com . dont ever act smart with me with your silly one liners , indian
 
raja porus kingdom was in modern day punjab and jammu . i never said he was indian or pakistani although at that time there was no centre power in modern day pakistan nor india , just tribes and small kings here and there.

as for porus's contact with alexander, ., Greeks were tired and overstretched , the army was in half revolt and demoralized and porus'es elephants did the rest . destiny had to stop alexander at hydapese i guess

btw, alexandar's horse is buried near phalia, modern pakistan

---------------------

i have crushed indian trolls like you en masse on pakdef forum .com . dont ever act smart with me with your silly one liners , indian

I used to be a pakdef too. For a bit.

And I remember all the good posters. Including the UK uncle with an Indian wife.

Don't remember you.

Cheers, Doc
 
Identity of pakistan is islam and terrorism in eye of a foreigner but it could be beautiful people with beautiful culture with great civilization (if pakistan promote ivc and gandhara) and rooh afza (that's all i can think of pakistani product)
From wiki
Rooh Afza[1] (Urdu: روح افزا‬‎; Hindi: रूह अफ़ज़ा; Bengali: রূহ আফজা) is a non-alcoholic concentrated squash. It was formulated by Naqi in 1906 in Ghaziabad, India
 
A brotherly dispute is not when your brother stirs up ethnic insurgency and promotes slander about you.
What the Afghan Taliban had was a brotherly dispute with Pakistan. The rest of the governments from 1947 till now (save the Afghan Taliban) are not brotherly. When will Pakistanis realise this?

You've got to re-read the posts prior to that one to understand the context. That border was just used as an example, I didn't mean the specifics of it, i merely meant a border between Muslim nations.
 
the identity of pak should be islam only. an islamic welfare state. this is the only identity which will be acceptable after our death. rest all other identities will stay here and fade away.
 
And yet you buy into the pan Dharmic sanghi bull potty that Porus was Indian.

Priceless.

@django please read Arrian, John D. Clare, Herodotus. Thoda desi peeccha cchodo ....

Cheers, Doc
Cannot find any sources on the net which link Porus to Persians, it just does not make sense, am willing to believe if presented with reasonable evidence, I hope the evidence you have is more authentic than those claims by Marathis of them being ancestors of Bugtis, Marris etc:lol:, that was an epic fail Doc.Kudos Doc
 
Cannot find any sources on the net which link Porus to Persians, it just does not make sense, am willing to believe if presented with reasonable evidence, I hope the evidence you have is more authentic than those claims by Marathis of them being ancestors of Bugtis, Marris etc:lol:, that was an epic fail Doc.Kudos Doc

Please man.

Hindus says he was Puru or Purushottam.

Persians say he was Porushasp or Porus.

The Greeks called him? PORUS.

Arrian and Plutarch are THE leading authorities of those times (Alexander's campaigns).

This entire area (west of Indus Pakistan) was under the Persians.

The Persians had a vast empire that the emperor ruled by Satraps (Herodotus).

The Hindu word-play to explain the genealogy of Satraps does not hold water when looked at against the backdrop of Greek (and ancient Chinese) accounts.

Now modern day Persians are understandably detached from their pre Islamic history. But there are tons of boys named Porus among both Iranian Zoroastrians and Parsis. I have a Porus in my family too btw.

How many Hindu boys named Porus? ZERO. How many of you guys in Pakistan named Porus???

But looked at in the big picture, what was Porus to the Persians really? When they had 5000 years of great warrior kings and emperors who ruled continental sized empires and took the fight to the Greeks and then the Roman empire?

Porus was a peripheral Satrap. A brave man. A great warrior. A shrewd general. Fantastic battle-craft. And he stuck one for the team to a man greatly hated by Persian bloodlines for what he did to us and our heritage. No Persian calls him Alexander the Great. He's always Alexander the Fag or versions thereof ...

Anyways I digress.

Now take the Indians. I mean that word civilizationally. Not Hindus. Am sure you appreciate that.

What has been their achievements militarily at the global scale? Outside their land? Expeditionary forces? Naval power?

It is understandable for them to want to ride on Porus's exploits.

But the reality is a mixed bag. Yes the army was Indian soldiers. Infantry. Archers. Elephants. The populace overseen by Porus and his closest Persian chieftains was also Indian. Paying their taxes to the Persian emperor. The battle-craft (if you go closely into Arrain's account of the battle movements along the river, and the deployment of the elephants) was a mix of Persian and traditional Indian plains warfare.

But Porus was not Indian. He was as Persian as they come.

And yes. There WAS an Indian Puru. Who hated the Persian Porus. That is another story in itself. In terms of Alexander sidelining one for the other as his Satrap, and adding to his dominion post the famous battle.

Read below the account by John D. Clare -

Alexander Rules His Empire

After his escape from the Gedrosian (Makran) desert, Alexander and the remnants of his army recovered at Susa (324bc).
The events of the year which followed are important for historians for it was in this time that Alexander stopped being a general (336-324bc) and started being the ruler of an empire (324-323bc).

1. Purge of the Satraps


As he had conquered each satrapy in the years up to 324bc, Alexander had taken control of the treasury and the army, and often left a Macedonian garrison in place but, generally, he had been prepared to re-appoint Persian rulers who surrendered to him (e.g. Mazaeus, Atropates, Abulites, Tiridates, Oxyarchus, Porus). This may have been to encourage other rulers to come over to his side without fight, but it probably was also connected to the fact that he was continually marching and fighting and did not have time to organise an empire.

Returning to Susa, Alexander found that these arrangements had not worked successfully. Believing that Alexander would not return, Arrian says, they had committed offences relating to ‘temples, graves and the subjects themselves’. The word he uses for ‘offences’ also means ‘playing out of tune’, so how much the satraps had been indulging in criminal activity, and how much it was simply that Alexander now wished to place his own stamp upon the government of the empire, we will never know.
About a dozen men (including Abulites and his son Ozathres) were executed, ‘in order to inspire others who might be left as viceroys, governors, or prefects of provinces with the fear of suffering equal penalties with them if they swerved from the path of duty; this was one of the chief means by which Alexander kept in subordination the nations which he had conquered in war...’ (Arrian 6.27).

This is significant because, in their places – although he did keep some Persian satraps, such as the brilliant Atropates – Alexander generally appointed Macedonians. At the time of Alexander’s death, 15 of the 24 satraps and 21 of the 24 garrison commanders were Macedonian; Alexander’s empire was overwhelmingly a ‘Macedonian Empire’.

2. Harpalus

Harpalus, the son of a Macedonian nobleman, had been left at Ecbatana in charge of the Macedonian Army Commissariat. According to Diodorus, he moved to Babylon, where he spent the royal treasury on a decadent lifestyle, including two high-class prostitutes from Athens.

When Alexander returned and stared purging his officials, Harpalus fled to Athens with thirty ships, 6,000 mercenaries, and 5,000 talents; and when first Alexander’s ambassador Philoxenus, then Antipater, and then Olympias demanded his extradition, the Athenians refused – what had been corruption seemed rapidly turning into a sizeable rebellion.
(i.e. in early 323bc, Greece seemed to be on the edge of revolt – although, actually, the Athenians refused to rebel, threw Harpalus into prison, and stole his wealth, and when Harpalus escaped to Crete he was murdered, possibly by Philoxenus.)

This is significant because:
1. we see that Alexander was not absolute ruler of the Greek states, which were still quite capable of saying no to him.
2. historians believe that the implication of Greek mercenaries in the affair persuaded Alexander that he had to do something about the Greek mercenaries in Asia, and led to the Exiles Decree.

3. The Rebellion at Opis

In August 324bc, allegedly to please his aging veterans, Alexander paid off their debts and told them he was sending them back to Greece. They mutinied.

Arrian (Book 7, Chapter V) gives a detailed account. Alexander immediately executed 13 men he identified as the ringleaders, told them that they could go where they liked, retired to his tent for a two-day sulk … and appointed 10,000 Persians as his guard. Realising that – unlike at the Hyphasis – they were no longer indispensible and could be replaced and end up with nothing, the mutiny collapsed, and Alexander celebrated with a service and ‘prayer of reconciliation’.

This is significant because:
1. we see him ‘playing off’ Greeks against Persians – replacing Greek with Persians – rather than trying to ‘fuse’ them.
2. was the ‘prayer of reconciliation’, therefore, a statement of general policy, or simply a specific statement to close this specific episode?

4. The Marriages at Susa

Alexander had already (335bc) used a mass wedding to unite ‘highland’ and ‘lowland’ Macedonians; in 324bc Arrian decribes how he used the same strategy, marrying some 92 of his Macedonian high command into Persian royalty and nobility.

This is significant because, it has been interpreted as evidence of Alexander’s ‘fusion’ policy, but:
1. It involved only the ruling elite – not peoples or cultures
2. It looks to me more like a policy to compromise and restrict a clan-oriented elite by imposing blood-obligations upon them towards families which otherwise might have been their enemies

Cheers, Doc
 
"At this solemn hour in the history of India, when British and Indian statesmen are laying the foundations of a Federal Constitution for that land, we address this appeal to you, in the name of our common heritage, on behalf of our thirty million Muslim brethren who live in PAKSTAN .

'Pakistan' is both a Persian and an Urdu word. It is composed of letters taken from the names of all our South Asia homelands; that is, Punjab, Afghania, Kashmir, Sindh and Balochistan. It means the land of the Paks – the spiritually pure and clean."

If you understand every word of this, you really shouldn't be confused. If you are, then I suggest (re)learning English. We are "Paks". That's it.
 
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Please man.

Hindus says he was Puru or Purushottam.

Persians say he was Porushasp or Porus.

The Greeks called him? PORUS.

Arrian and Plutarch are THE leading authorities of those times (Alexander's campaigns).

This entire area (west of Indus Pakistan) was under the Persians.

The Persians had a vast empire that the emperor ruled by Satraps (Herodotus).

The Hindu word-play to explain the genealogy of Satraps does not hold water when looked at against the backdrop of Greek (and ancient Chinese) accounts.

Now modern day Persians are understandably detached from their pre Islamic history. But there are tons of boys named Porus among both Iranian Zoroastrians and Parsis. I have a Porus in my family too btw.

How many Hindu boys named Porus? ZERO. How many of you guys in Pakistan named Porus???

But looked at in the big picture, what was Porus to the Persians really? When they had 5000 years of great warrior kings and emperors who ruled continental sized empires and took the fight to the Greeks and then the Roman empire?

Porus was a peripheral Satrap. A brave man. A great warrior. A shrewd general. Fantastic battle-craft. And he stuck one for the team to a man greatly hated by Persian bloodlines for what he did to us and our heritage. No Persian calls him Alexander the Great. He's always Alexander the Fag or versions thereof ...

Anyways I digress.

Now take the Indians. I mean that word civilizationally. Not Hindus. Am sure you appreciate that.

What has been their achievements militarily at the global scale? Outside their land? Expeditionary forces? Naval power?

It is understandable for them to want to ride on Porus's exploits.

But the reality is a mixed bag. Yes the army was Indian soldiers. Infantry. Archers. Elephants. The populace overseen by Porus and his closest Persian chieftains was also Indian. Paying their taxes to the Persian emperor. The battle-craft (if you go closely into Arrain's account of the battle movements along the river, and the deployment of the elephants) was a mix of Persian and traditional Indian plains warfare.

But Porus was not Indian. He was as Persian as they come.

And yes. There WAS an Indian Puru. Who hated the Persian Porus. That is another story in itself. In terms of Alexander sidelining one for the other as his Satrap, and adding to his dominion post the famous battle.

Read below the account by John D. Clare -

Alexander Rules His Empire

After his escape from the Gedrosian (Makran) desert, Alexander and the remnants of his army recovered at Susa (324bc).
The events of the year which followed are important for historians for it was in this time that Alexander stopped being a general (336-324bc) and started being the ruler of an empire (324-323bc).

1. Purge of the Satraps


As he had conquered each satrapy in the years up to 324bc, Alexander had taken control of the treasury and the army, and often left a Macedonian garrison in place but, generally, he had been prepared to re-appoint Persian rulers who surrendered to him (e.g. Mazaeus, Atropates, Abulites, Tiridates, Oxyarchus, Porus). This may have been to encourage other rulers to come over to his side without fight, but it probably was also connected to the fact that he was continually marching and fighting and did not have time to organise an empire.

Returning to Susa, Alexander found that these arrangements had not worked successfully. Believing that Alexander would not return, Arrian says, they had committed offences relating to ‘temples, graves and the subjects themselves’. The word he uses for ‘offences’ also means ‘playing out of tune’, so how much the satraps had been indulging in criminal activity, and how much it was simply that Alexander now wished to place his own stamp upon the government of the empire, we will never know.
About a dozen men (including Abulites and his son Ozathres) were executed, ‘in order to inspire others who might be left as viceroys, governors, or prefects of provinces with the fear of suffering equal penalties with them if they swerved from the path of duty; this was one of the chief means by which Alexander kept in subordination the nations which he had conquered in war...’ (Arrian 6.27).

This is significant because, in their places – although he did keep some Persian satraps, such as the brilliant Atropates – Alexander generally appointed Macedonians. At the time of Alexander’s death, 15 of the 24 satraps and 21 of the 24 garrison commanders were Macedonian; Alexander’s empire was overwhelmingly a ‘Macedonian Empire’.

2. Harpalus

Harpalus, the son of a Macedonian nobleman, had been left at Ecbatana in charge of the Macedonian Army Commissariat. According to Diodorus, he moved to Babylon, where he spent the royal treasury on a decadent lifestyle, including two high-class prostitutes from Athens.

When Alexander returned and stared purging his officials, Harpalus fled to Athens with thirty ships, 6,000 mercenaries, and 5,000 talents; and when first Alexander’s ambassador Philoxenus, then Antipater, and then Olympias demanded his extradition, the Athenians refused – what had been corruption seemed rapidly turning into a sizeable rebellion.
(i.e. in early 323bc, Greece seemed to be on the edge of revolt – although, actually, the Athenians refused to rebel, threw Harpalus into prison, and stole his wealth, and when Harpalus escaped to Crete he was murdered, possibly by Philoxenus.)

This is significant because:
1. we see that Alexander was not absolute ruler of the Greek states, which were still quite capable of saying no to him.
2. historians believe that the implication of Greek mercenaries in the affair persuaded Alexander that he had to do something about the Greek mercenaries in Asia, and led to the Exiles Decree.

3. The Rebellion at Opis

In August 324bc, allegedly to please his aging veterans, Alexander paid off their debts and told them he was sending them back to Greece. They mutinied.

Arrian (Book 7, Chapter V) gives a detailed account. Alexander immediately executed 13 men he identified as the ringleaders, told them that they could go where they liked, retired to his tent for a two-day sulk … and appointed 10,000 Persians as his guard. Realising that – unlike at the Hyphasis – they were no longer indispensible and could be replaced and end up with nothing, the mutiny collapsed, and Alexander celebrated with a service and ‘prayer of reconciliation’.

This is significant because:
1. we see him ‘playing off’ Greeks against Persians – replacing Greek with Persians – rather than trying to ‘fuse’ them.
2. was the ‘prayer of reconciliation’, therefore, a statement of general policy, or simply a specific statement to close this specific episode?

4. The Marriages at Susa

Alexander had already (335bc) used a mass wedding to unite ‘highland’ and ‘lowland’ Macedonians; in 324bc Arrian decribes how he used the same strategy, marrying some 92 of his Macedonian high command into Persian royalty and nobility.

This is significant because, it has been interpreted as evidence of Alexander’s ‘fusion’ policy, but:
1. It involved only the ruling elite – not peoples or cultures
2. It looks to me more like a policy to compromise and restrict a clan-oriented elite by imposing blood-obligations upon them towards families which otherwise might have been their enemies

Cheers, Doc
:lol::rofl:

I have laughed at your previous claims, but this one is simply golden. "Porus was Persian", I thought you were joking around at first.
 
What is Pakistan's identity?

It's very simple.

Map.jpg


Firstly, Geographical and culturally, we are descendants of the IVC foremost which first established settlements on this land. Adding to them, waves of migrants from Central Asia (Irani, Turkic, Mongols) settled here and brought their own culture. Settlers from Persia, Arabia, Africa, Greece also settled here from the West.

The first loyalty of a Pakistani today is of clan and ethnic identity.

The lowest level of organization is the family clan. Above that is the ethnic group/provincial identity. Thirdly, national identity as a Pakistani. Every Pakistani is cognizant of his role as a citizen of this great nation.

The second major aspect of Pakistani identity is religion. A Pakistani, for the most part, Muslim. Pakistani identity is based on Islam and all its historical, cultural, social, and legalistic aspects.

hqdefault.jpg


Which kind of Islam, you ask?

The Islam of Allama Iqbal which transcends sect. An Islam which views Sunni and Shia as equals. An Islam which is infused with the metaphysical truths of Sufism. An Islam which is devoid of the negative influences of racial supremacy and ethnic chauvinism. An Islam which destroys Sultanate and Mullah.

Islam based on the Quran and Sunnah as the ultimate guide. Islam which elevates mankind, instead of suppressing it. Here we have our ideals.
 
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:lol::rofl:

I have laughed at your previous claims, but this one is simply golden. "Porus was Persian", I thought you were joking around at first.

I've been laughing at all desis, Indian and Pakistani, since school history days.

Cheers, Doc
 
Porus.

Oh but he was Persian.

No he wasn't, stop making up such stupid crap.

Pakistanis identity should be those great Kings who fought Islamic Invaders

That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard, can you give me even one good reason why a Muslim from Pakistan shouldn't support historical Muslim rulers of the region? And please, don't repeat the same nonsense that has been refuted time and time again.

No he was from Afghanistan...

His birthplace is disputed, but for various reasons it's more probable that he came from Multan.

Either way, it's irrelevant. He was still a very devout Muslim who fought against the barbaric Sikh and Maratha empire's, and he belongs to the same ethnic group as many Pakistanis.

Your only shared identity is Islam.

Joke of the century

screenshot_2018-04-11-15-35-59-1-png.469512


Half of Pakistan is Hindu.

The other half Zoroastrian.

You need your head checked.

but u dont see us asking every month bharat ka matlab kya.

Because a lot of Pakistani neo-nationalists want their identity to be rooted in ethnicity/culture rather than Islam.

While I do agree with them that Islam isn't the only thing that we have in common, it's still the most important part of our identity.

Believe it or not but the place where Vedic or Hindu religion took shape is somewhere in Pakistan to the west of Ravi. You can say that Pakistan is the actual birth place of Hinduism .

We don't dispute that, in fact, I often use it to further show how idiotic it is for Hindustani nationalists to say we have an 'inferiority complex' when they adore so many things from Pakistan, such as IVC, Gandhara, Panini, some even try to claim Iqbal as their own.

From wiki
Rooh Afza[1] (Urdu: روح افزا‬‎; Hindi: रूह अफ़ज़ा; Bengali: রূহ আফজা) is a non-alcoholic concentrated squash. It was formulated by Naqi in 1906 in Ghaziabad, India

The younger son of the man who created the drink migrated to Pakistan during partition.
 

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