What has Democracy solve for India? Lesson for us.

[gpit]

India has survived only because of democracy.If democracy was not there then the country would have broken apart into several smaller territories.We are the second fastest growing economy in the world only because of democracy.Obviously there are several problems that must be addressed and it is going to take time.But we are not like China where forests and other vegetations are ruthlessly cleared to establish industries.We are a country where people's rights are respected.We are a country where everyone has a say.The GOI did not allow Vedanta to start mining operations in the nyamgiri ranges just because the local tribes were opposing it.The government created several problems for the new airport at Mumbai because it was damaging the environment.The GOI did not allow POSCO to set up it's 12 billion dollars steel project because locals were opposing it.All these are the characteristics of a democracy.Very few Chinese people will ever understand the real beauty of democracy because they are content with what they have under the communist rule.You guys may have all the things that you wanted , but you guys don't have one thing that matters the most i.e freedom .What is the point of having a 36" Sony bravia when your government cuts out the network when anything anti China is being shown?

Hard to say. Your governments did not endorse these projects could well be that briberies from cooperates were not intense enough, in both frequency and amount.

 

[desioptimist]

In a democratic country with free media, there is a chance that the truth will come out sooner or later. If India was a closed system, the same bribery would have happened anyway, with different frequency and amount, and nobody ever knowing anything about it(ever)

A non democratic India would have the same ills that all of you talk about, but much more severe( and much less visible)

 

[gpit]

^^ Your remark has some sense.

But, the troubling thing is that how do you explain your high percent of criminals in your parliament?

Even stuff comes out eventually, if no punishment is applied, it only encourages people to commit more crime.

I was taunting about high prisoners in US the other day. Now I feel that it has a reason, because US has perhaps the most stringent punishment in the world. Look at “three strikes” policy in California.

Three strikes laws are statutes enacted by state governments in the United States which require the state courts to hand down a mandatory and extended period of incarceration to persons who have been convicted of a serious criminal offense on three or more separate occasions. These statutes became very popular in the 1990s. Twenty four states have some form of habitual offender laws.

...


Three strikes law - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

BTW, have you found anything in Gorshkov price hike? It is so obvious.

 

[below_freezing]

My friend.. i do not have a issue discussing the merits & demirits of a political system. But I do have a problem when some one tries to present a thread as a debating issue, when the motive is anything other than that. I know there is advantages & disadvantages in any system. No administrative system is 100% full proof. our leaders thought democracy is the way to go forward, same way your leaders chose communism as the way to go. It's the choice of a nation & no one should impose one's preference on other.
democracy may be slow in yielding the desired results, but it is a kind of system where it rectifies the flaws within the system when you give a chance to evolve itself.
just to give you an example.. do you think a act like RTI would have worked 20 odd years ago?? no way.. but now its a part of our system. Credit does not go to the leaders for bringing it. credit goes to the system where it accomodates these kind of laws. corruption was there before as well. In the past it used to be swept under the carpet. Now you can not. You know why?? democracy has given the tools to the public to expose it!!

there's an opportunity cost for this. progress builds on former progress. the longer you wait the further ahead others are. even if democracy could "self fix" (and i very doubt that), the cost of waiting may be too high. note the number of ppl starving to death in india every year. will you say to their family's face that their deaths are worth it because its part of the grand experiment on democracy?!

 

[desioptimist]

^^ Your remark has some sense.

But, the troubling thing is that how do you explain your high percent of criminals in your parliament?

Even stuff comes out eventually, if no punishment is applied, it only encourages people to commit more crime.

I was taunting about high prisoners in US the other day. Now I feel that it has a reason, because US has perhaps the most stringent punishment in the world. Look at “three strikes” policy in California.



BTW, have you found anything in Gorshkov price hike? It is so obvious.

I dont think that there are too many criminals in parliament. I can see that in near future, any criminal will find it very difficult to get to parliament. Election commission of India is doing better than ever before.
Corruption is a bigger challenge, especially influence of corporates. That will require change in system which nobody is willing to do.
Another issue is the extreme slow delivery of justice(as you mentioned). But that is not directly related to India being democracy.

As far as I know, russians increased the price due to cost escalation. I would not speculate corruption (Just because there are so many defense related scandals). It is like assuming that match "X" was also fixed just because pakistan played.

 

[JanjaWeed]

there's an opportunity cost for this. progress builds on former progress. the longer you wait the further ahead others are. even if democracy could "self fix" (and i very doubt that), the cost of waiting may be too high. note the number of ppl starving to death in india every year. will you say to their family's face that their deaths are worth it because its part of the grand experiment on democracy?!

i think you are getting carried away with your obcession with poor & starving people of india. i thing you need to get out of that little communist bubble & realise that no political system can change someone's life overnight. In any form of government it's the people & their intention which makes the difference.
you seems to think democracy is the cause of evil in india. Let me ask you a question.. which form of govt do you suggest to the people outside your country to overcome their shortcomings??
communism??
Are countries like bulgaria, czecheslovakia, hungary, poland, romania, former east germany, yugoslavia etc.. etc.. are better off or worse off after giving up communism for democracy??
if there are evils like poverty & starvation in a democracy, so is the same in a country run by other form of governments. let's take the example of communist china..

there is poverty & starvation in china, maybe not to the extent of
india.. but there are many other evile such as:

china's birth planning law, forced abortion & sterilization is quite commen.

relentless oppression of relegious groups & intolerance

tyrannical rule of party which fails to uphold the value of freedom & human rights. a policy of oppression towards tibet, uighars & east turkestan..

now you are either ignorant to the above facts or you have a head of ostrich?? take your pick!!

 

[CardSharp]

i think you are getting carried away with your obcession with poor & starving people of india. i thing you need to get out of that little communist bubble & realise that no political system can change someone's life overnight. In any form of government it's the people & their intention which makes the difference.
you seems to think democracy is the cause of evil in india. Let me ask you a question.. which form of govt do you suggest to the people outside your country to overcome their shortcomings??
communism??
Are countries like bulgaria, czecheslovakia, hungary, poland, romania, former east germany, yugoslavia etc.. etc.. are better off or worse off after giving up communism for democracy??
if there are evils like poverty & starvation in a democracy, so is the same in a country run by other form of governments. let's take the example of communist china..

there is poverty & starvation in china, maybe not to the extent of
india.. but there are many other evile such as:

china's birth planning law, forced abortion & sterilization is quite commen.

relentless oppression of relegious groups & intolerance

tyrannical rule of party which fails to uphold the value of freedom & human rights. a policy of oppression towards tibet, uighars & east turkestan..

now you are either ignorant to the above facts or you have a head of ostrich?? take your pick!!

Or you're an idiot and don't have the self-awareness to realize it. Bubbles... everyone lives in one with the difference you are under the delusion that you are special and can claim absolute objectivity (which ironically contributes more to ignorance and stupidity than any other mindset in the world)


The master says "Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance"

 

[desioptimist]

The master says "Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance"
[/QUOTE]

This applies to everybody, including you and me.

The title of this post suggests a discussion on democracy in India. Rather it became a thread of "What is wrong with India".

If the person who started the thread can change the title and remove reference to democracy, we can discuss each problem( castism, corruption, criminals etc) in more details. May be the chinease friends can suggest some remedy to these evils.

As the post is not about the evils that chinease face, I am not going to discuss them.

 

[BigTree.CN]

It is interesting that so many Indian members are defending the severe poverty and starvation in the name of democracy.

How many of you had been poor for once before you came to this forum? Do you know anything about the needs of the poor people? Have you ever thought about how cruel it is to put off the poor people again and again with the cheap promises of freedom while most of them are still struggling for creature comfort?

Just be a poor people for one day, you will find out how hilarious it is to say freedom of speech triumphs over creature comfort.

If you want to feel what it is like to be a poor, just work in the farmland when the tempture outside it as high as 38 degree like the woman is doing in the picture.

 

[CardSharp]

It is interesting that so many Indian members are defending the severe poverty and starvation in the name of democracy.

How many of you had been poor for once before you came to this forum? Do you know anything about the needs of the poor people? Have you ever thought about how cruel it is to put off the poor people again and again with the cheap promises of freedom while most of them are still struggling for creature comfort?

Just be a poor people for one day, you will find out how hilarious it is to say freedom of speech triumphs over creature comfort.

If you want to feel what it is like to be a poor, just work in the farmland when the tempture outside it as high as 38 degree like the woman is doing in the picture.

Poor Indians' poverty is just an inconvenience to him, when he's feeling proud of rising India.

Poverty is the cruelest thing in the world.

 

[deckingraj]

^^ Your remark has some sense.

But, the troubling thing is that how do you explain your high percent of criminals in your parliament?

Even stuff comes out eventually, if no punishment is applied, it only encourages people to commit more crime.

Do keep in mind that as per Law you are not a criminal as long as your crime is not proven in court....The members you are talking about do have cases against them but none has been proven so far. As per law if you are a criminal then you cannot become an MP...

Secondly as pointed out earlier corruption/crime has nothing to do with Democracy. In democracy there is more chance that things will come out and eventually rule of law will prevail...B/W since you are not an Indian you might have no idea how much Indian electoral system has changed. Recent elections in Bihar is a testamount to it....Anyhow there is no system that can work in India apart from Democracy, period...

I was taunting about high prisoners in US the other day. Now I feel that it has a reason, because US has perhaps the most stringent punishment in the world. Look at “three strikes” policy in California.

You cannot compare world's oldest democracy with India. As said above Indian electoral system has matured significantly in last decade....Voters are now voting for Issue's and not caste. Parties are bringing real issues in their manifesto and young India is not listening to any BS...So wait and watch...

BTW, have you found anything in Gorshkov price hike? It is so obvious.

Well i don't want to get into corruption argument which has nothing to do with democracy but do keep in mind, gorkshoz is still a great asset for IN...

 

[third eye]

It is interesting that so many Indian members are defending the severe poverty and starvation in the name of democracy.

How many of you had been poor for once before you came to this forum? Do you know anything about the needs of the poor people? Have you ever thought about how cruel it is to put off the poor people again and again with the cheap promises of freedom while most of them are still struggling for creature comfort?

Just be a poor people for one day, you will find out how hilarious it is to say freedom of speech triumphs over creature comfort.

If you want to feel what it is like to be a poor, just work in the farmland when the tempture outside it as high as 38 degree like the woman is doing in the picture.

@ Bigtree,

Your sentiments are appreciated.

Please note that India & Indians have been under feudal & foreign yoke for centuries and are acutely aware of what it takes to be oppressed - and at places are still being oppressed today.

Yet, we prefer to have a voice either directly, thru the media or thru opposition political parties. We prefer a system wherein those in power have to come back to us every five years to seek validation.

We prefer a system where the majority wins even if the party we voted for does not win. We may feel bad but accept the verdict gracefully fully aware that those who win have to perform of be removed the next time.

The recent elections in the state of Bihar has shown the maturity of the Indian electorate who has selected development over religion & caste.

On the subject of tempratures, the ambient in most parts of India crosses 40 degrees and reaches upt0 45 in shade , 38 is not so bad.

 

[BigTree.CN]

@ Bigtree,

Your sentiments are appreciated.

Please note that India & Indians have been under feudal & foreign yoke for centuries and are acutely aware of what it takes to be oppressed - and at places are still being oppressed today.

Yet, we prefer to have a voice either directly, thru the media or thru opposition political parties. We prefer a system wherein those in power have to come back to us every five years to seek validation.

We prefer a system where the majority wins even if the party we voted for does not win. We may feel bad but accept the verdict gracefully fully aware that those who win have to perform of be removed the next time.

The recent elections in the state of Bihar has shown the maturity of the Indian electorate who has selected development over religion & caste.

On the subject of tempratures, the ambient in most parts of India crosses 40 degrees and reaches upt0 45 in shade , 38 is not so bad.

Just one question, had you ever worked like the woman in the picture?

 

[Kyusuibu Honbu]

Just one question, had you ever worked like the woman in the picture?

I did!

It was Van Mohathsav(planting trees event)

I don't recall the exact number of saplings I planted ,We did it from Morning till sunset.

It was fun,since i was a kid back then.

 

[CardSharp]

You guys are making light of the situation poor people are in with these comparisons.