what does the Pak armed forces realiticially need to counter india conventially

[deckingraj]

Internal interference also OK given the situation in the country. But charting foreign policies are very bad for civil society. Army can't think beyond blood bath

The day they understand this Pakistan will be a different state...The problem is even history hasn't taught them this...otherwise look at people like @AgNoStiC MuSliM .....I have high regards for him as a poster...however how easy it is for people like him to claim how incompetent present govt. is then back Army role which ideally should be civilian govt....What they don't understand is that Army Generals are very bold(this is how they are raised and rightly so)...however this is not how nations move...Geo-politics and repercussions of your actions are very important...The moment Mushy got a chance(emboldened by Nukes) he did Kargil on us...Pakistan as a nation have lost so much with that amazing stunt, no?? If i look further back i see the same actions in 65....

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Sorry to say both bold parts are nothing but pile of lie....Civilized nations don't keep threatening about Nuking your opponent....and honestly i don't even get the logic behind it...you have nukes...we know world knows...you have tactical weapons we know that...what is the reason to keep shouting from roof top that you have tactical weapons apart from getting a tag of immature nuclear power??

There's nothing false about it, and merely calling it a lie doesn't make it one. See previous post - when a genocidal maniac and his ranting minions spew poisonous threat after threat at Pakistan, Pakistan's leadership decided to highlight the nuclear option as a defensive response for 2 reasons:

1. To highlight to the world the dangerous brinkmanship being threatened by the Indian genocidal maniac

2. Shut up the Indian genocidal maniac and his minions by reminding them of the threat from escalation

Secondly are you saying that Pakistan was not threatening the nuke showdown when MMS was in?? Honestly you guys hate for Modi is now reaching a new level....geez!!

I never said that - I merely pointed out that statements such as the ones being referred to are made in the context of a specific question or as a response to a specific statement or threat from the Indian side.

 

[MilSpec]

The day they understand this Pakistan will be a different state...The problem is even history hasn't taught them this...otherwise look at people like @AgNoStiC MuSliM .....I have high regards for him as a poster...however how easy it is for people like him to claim how incompetent present govt. is then back Army role which ideally should be civilian govt....What they don't understand is that Army Generals are very bold(this is how they are raised and rightly so)...however this is not how nations move...Geo-politics and repercussions of your actions are very important...The moment Mushy got a chance(emboldened by Nukes) he did Kargil on us...Pakistan as a nation have lost so much with that amazing stunt, no?? If i look further back i see the same actions in 65....

India had a poor Pakistan Policy back in 65, similarly had a poor policy during kargil and continues to do so today. So I don't see any change in belligerence, Most of political leadership has no understanding of dynamics of Pakistan's India policy.

 

[Ind4Ever]

The day they understand this Pakistan will be a different state...The problem is even history hasn't taught them this...otherwise look at people like @AgNoStiC MuSliM .....I have high regards for him as a poster...however how easy it is for people like him to claim how incompetent present govt. is then back Army role which ideally should be civilian govt....What they don't understand is that Army Generals are very bold(this is how they are raised and rightly so)...however this is not how nations move...Geo-politics and repercussions of your actions are very important...The moment Mushy got a chance(emboldened by Nukes) he did Kargil on us...Pakistan as a nation have lost so much with that amazing stunt, no?? If i look further back i see the same actions in 65....

True... Very misplaced agenda is been followed by Pakistan generals for many years now. Which led to huge loss too. What Pakistan has gained? Nothing

 

[MilSpec]

There's nothing false about it, and merely calling it a lie doesn't make it one. See previous post - when a genocidal maniac and his ranting minions spew poisonous threat after threat at Pakistan, Pakistan's leadership decided to highlight the nuclear option as a defensive response for 2 reasons:

1. To highlight to the world the dangerous brinkmanship being threatened by the Indian genocidal maniac

2. Shut up the Indian genocidal maniac and his minions by reminding them of the threat from escalation

I never said that - I merely pointed out that statements such as the ones being referred to are made in the context of a specific question or as a response to a specific statement or threat from the Indian side.

Genocidal Maniac?

 

[Ind4Ever]

India had a poor Pakistan Policy back in 65, similarly had a poor policy during kargil and continues to do so today. So I don't see any change in belligerence, Most of political leadership has no understanding of dynamics of Pakistan's India policy.

Our policies are basically defensive and little bit soft towards Pakistan. Or else we could had solved this Pakistan problem in 1971 itself. Or even in 2008

 

[MilSpec]

Our policies are basically defensive and little bit soft towards Pakistan. Or else we could had solved this Pakistan problem in 1971 itself. Or even in 2008

Have you ever gotten into a fight in school?

 

[deckingraj]

There's nothing false about it, and merely calling it a lie doesn't make it one. See previous post - when a genocidal maniac and his ranting minions spew poisonous threat after threat at Pakistan, Pakistan's leadership decided to highlight the nuclear option as a defensive response for 2 reasons:
1. To highlight to the world the dangerous brinkmanship being threatened by the Indian genocidal maniac
2. Shut up the Indian genocidal maniac and his minions by reminding them of the threat from escalation

You are acting childish now....Not sure how you people even believe in this load of crap....Are you saying that we are suffering from some amnesia that we simply shut-up the moment you remind us of nukes??

Your nuclear thresh-hold is out there...what's the fun in bringing nukes everywhere....

I never said that - I merely pointed out that statements such as the ones being referred to are made in the context of a specific question or as a response to a specific statement or threat from the Indian side.

Nopes...I have been following your posts...anyways you were threatening with nukes during MMS and now carrying on that during Modi..what has changed??? Apart from your cover up by raking Modi bogey this time??

 

[war&peace]

Hi,

That is a great thread to start-----. In the 73 war---the weakest link of the Egyptians was their air force and because of their air force---actually the lack of it----or poor quality air force---they got the ultimate thrashing---.

So---same is the case with Pakistan air force----it is not our navy---it actually is our air force that is the weakest link in our armor----.

It desperately lags in heavy strike capability---and specially against an enemy with 3 times the military might.

Even in wars of 1965 and 71---Pakistan air force had heavies according to that time and had fighters that were superiorly equipped and pilots better trained----the F86 with the sidewinders---that was a massive plus---. In 71---even though india had the mig21's---their pilots were under trained.

The SA missile umbrella is wonderful to have and is very important----but it has to be complimented by heavy aircraft---because in the 73 war---after the Egyptian army moved out form under the SA missile umbrella----the heavy aircraft of that time---the Phantoms----slaughtered the MIG21's like there was no tomorrow---.

I really don't know there is a kind of inertia on part PAF leadership when selecting any platform other than F-16...They are kind of either indecisive or maybe there are waiting for something (..maybe waiting for india to select its next airplane). But I really don't see the need for it. They should be more agile in decision making than other two services as agility is an inherent part of airforce and flying.
Good air defence we should push for S-400. If our airforce selects the right platform and integrates it quickly into its system. It would be great. God forbid, but realistically, sooner or later there is going to be a conflict between India and Pakistan and it would be better if we can push india with our conventional capability a bit, it would actually be india contemplating for nukes much before Pakistan.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

however how easy it is for people like him to claim how incompetent present govt. is then back Army role which ideally should be civilian govt....

Oh bhai, read my views more carefully on this issue - I'm not arguing that I prefer an Army role but that the weakness of civilian institutions leaves no choice but for the Army to take a role. You can't take these roles away from the military so long as the Civilian government remains incompetent. Do you really think the West gives two hoots about what the current Defence Minister, Khwaja Asif, has to say?

Why are the Rangers involved in Karachi, or the FC in Balochistan? Because the civilian institutions there are incompetent.

Now what should the military have done, let Karachi and Balochistan burn in the hands of terrorists and criminals? How would that have helped 'strengthen civilian control'? With the Army taking the lead in certain roles the civilians have an opportunity to invest in civilian institutions, build capacity and help them grow, and yet we see very little on that count.

Turkey is an excellent example of what it takes to shift control from the military to civilian institutions - it requires civilian governments to deliver on domestic governance, security and economic issues. Only then will a civilian government have the kind of public support (and this is especially true in a society like Pakistan where democracy is still a word that many find alien) that allows them to challenge any potential unconstitutional military interference.

You are acting childish now....Not sure how you people even believe in this load of crap....Are you saying that we are suffering from some amnesia that we simply shut-up the moment you remind us of nukes??

Your'e focusing on just one of the points, they are interlinked, and yes, the tactic has worked, for now.

Your nuclear thresh-hold is out there...what's the fun in bringing nukes everywhere....

If it's 'out there' why are you whinging and complaining about Pakistan reiterating the obvious?

Nopes...I have been following your posts...anyways you were threatening with nukes during MMS and now carrying on that during Modi..what has changed??? Apart from your cover up by raking Modi bogey this time??

'Nopes' what? When did I mention MMS or state that this was something unique to Modi or the BJP?

What specifically was the statement issued by the Pakistani government under MMS that you are referring to? I mentioned the genocidal maniac, Modi, specifically in the context of the recent Pakistani statements by the foreign spokesperson and Defence Minister, so of course my comments would be directed at the BJP. So again, read carefully and pay attention to the context in which comments and arguments are made.

 

[Hyperion]

Really!!!!! What sort of idiotic question is it? Simplistic answer for the simple minded.......

Taking historic Indian purchases into account::::::

Choice One:
a) Economy the size of India
b) Defense budget 32x that of present day India
c) 32x less corrupt politicians and 64x less corrupt generals in Pakistan.
d) Provided all of the above are true, time and lots of time to catch up.
e) Convince rest of the world that such a huge military buildup is justified relative to our size.

Choice Two:
a) Economy 32x size of India
b) 7.5% of budget allocated to defense.
c) 32x less corrupt politicians and 64x less corrupt generals in Pakistan.
d) Provided all of the above are true, time and lots of time to catch up.
e) Convince rest of the world that such a huge military buildup is justified relative to our size.

So on and so forth.......

CHOICE THREE FOR MENTALLY CHALLENGED:

Choice Three:

IT IS NOT POSSIBLE........... NOT NOW....... NOT EVER.........

Hence the nuclear option.

 

[deckingraj]

Oh bhai, read my views more carefully on this issue - I'm not arguing that I prefer an Army role but that the weakness of civilian institutions leaves no choice but for the Army to take a role. You can't take these roles away from the military so long as the Civilian government remains incompetent. Do you really think the West gives two hoots about what the current Defence Minister, Khwaja Asif, has to say?

Why are the Rangers involved in Karachi, or the FC in Balochistan? Because the civilian institutions there are incompetent.

Now what should the military have done, let Karachi and Balochistan burn in the hands of terrorists and criminals? How would that have helped 'strengthen civilian control'? With the Army taking the lead in certain roles the civilians have an opportunity to invest in civilian institutions, build capacity and help them grow, and yet we see very little on that count.

Turkey is an excellent example of what it takes to shift control from the military to civilian institutions - it requires civilian governments to deliver on domestic governance, security and economic issues. Only then will a civilian government have the kind of public support (and this is especially true in a society like Pakistan where democracy is still a word that many find alien) that allows them to challenge any potential unconstitutional military interference.

Look this is your country so i am nobody to lecture you...However given we are debating i shared my points...Civilian govt. will always remain weak...because Army is not going to relent and give control of foreign policy...I mean who loves giving away power?? Only Pakistanis can exert pressure for this power transfer...Unfortunately from where i see it doesn't look happening to me in near future...I mean you guys did make a hero out the person who ideally should have been hanged for treason by bringing in so much loss to Pakistan with his Kargil misadventure...no??

Your'e focusing on just one of the points, they are interlinked, and yes, the tactic has worked, for now. If it's 'out there' why are you whinging and complaining about Pakistan reiterating the obvious?

because this is plain stupid....help me understand how has your tactic helped?? How your DM reminding that you have nukes stopped India from making LOC/IB hot??

'Nopes' what? When did I mention MMS or state that this was something unique to Modi or the BJP? What specifically was the statement issued by the Pakistani government under MMS that you are referring to? I mentioned the genocidal maniac, Modi, specifically in the context of the recent Pakistani statements by the foreign spokesperson and Defence Minister, so of course my comments would be directed at the BJP. So again, read carefully and pay attention to the context in which comments and arguments are made.

Don't play with words...My point is simple...Pakistan has been threatening to use nukes irrespective of who in India is in power...It has nothing to with Modi and how you guys feel about him....Agree/deny that...

India had a poor Pakistan Policy back in 65, similarly had a poor policy during kargil and continues to do so today. So I don't see any change in belligerence, Most of political leadership has no understanding of dynamics of Pakistan's India policy.

can't agree more on this....we stills are freaking debating about to talk or not, then to talk again and cycle repeats in infinite loop....

 

[Stag112]

Such intellectual dishonesty and acting too smart on display here by one poster. Does this fool anyone???

 

[Sky lord]

The thing is that our sole purpose in life is to fight you and conquer you----your sole purpose in life is tomake money----so you cannot keep on with us----.

And again---you money expenditure does not bother us a tad bit----because most of it is wasted----and then there are other issues as well.

Truth be told---how many Indians get up everyday and say we want to destroy and conquer Pakistan---not many---but how about Pakistan----!!!! Think about it---. That is all we think---from dawn till dusk----.

You guys ought to be grateful to your leaders that you got the nucs----otherwise---you would have seen our cold start doctrine as well by now---.

You are spot on. This is very accurate. Pakistanis keep telling this to Indians but Indian leaders never believe it.

They should.

Excellent and truthful assessment.

My man---you are young---so you may not have been told---once Pakistan gets shiny new weapons---it is time for war---when we will start it---it is at our discretion. We are just filling up our coffers.

Yes absolutely true. I am now your confirmed fan Sir.

 

[thrilainmanila]

The Strong points
Pak Army is really strong and can put up a really good fight for 7-10 days .
The F16 are a real threat to india and as good as anything in IAF
Pakistan has good short range missle capability and good stand off weapons
The Big one Pakistan has nuclear card

Weak points.
Navy will be in real trouble and india will achieve sea supremacy quickly and block Pakistan trade routes and supplies
Pakistan reserves can only last 7-10 days as per recent pak dawn programme after recent LOC firing pak ran out of ammo quickly. india has more money and bigger reseves of ammo of all kinds
IAF has more 4th generation fighters by factor of 3-1 and longer range fighters.
india has far superior logistical support with 4 times the transport planes and 3 times as many helicopters.
Pakistan has no strategic depth and many of its biggest cities are close to border.
indian bases and infrastructure is huge three times the number of targets and over vast geography.
indian reserves and resources can outlast Pakistan by a fctor of 3 to 1 ie one week versis 3 weeks in a full scale war


Summary
Pakistan can never win a war against india it simpy lacks the resources and experience to do this. Any notion that this can or should happen is nonsense has india will get stronger over the next decade or two.,

But thanks to nuclear weapons india cannot attack and dismember Pakistan ever again either.

We should all hope for status quo and peace to prevail

the point about the LOC firing, i find it a little hard to believe, the pak army seem to have vast volumes of ammunition, if such an event occured, the Pak army would have lost dozens of men against india, according to neutral claims only 7 max 10 pak soldiers have been killed on the loc in skirmishes almost 3x that have been killed on the IA, if the army really were down on ammo, it would be very shocking.