What do you know about War??

[jhungary]

@jhungary ....Sir,a very well written piece and should be a lesson to warmongers and keyboard warriors here on this Forum and elsewhere...

Thanks, actually i wrote this piece out of anger, most of the stuff i wrote is directly coming from my brain, glad you like it tho

There is another thing that the Top Brass has to worry about- Battle of Accounts; the concerned scenarios emerge due to the limited budget sanctioned to armed forces.

Then there are authorities to whom Top Brass is answerable- Pentagon/ South Block.

Well, Napoleon once said, an Army march on stomach, obiviously Napoleon have never been on modern battlefield....

Today, everythying is money, I remember a discussion with my wife once, about anti-war protestor. War started mostly because of money. No matter what the clause is, you can bet your *** that i can be traced to money or financial gain. Problem is, everyone who support a clause supporting money, anti-war or pro-war alike, and that would make literally everyone supporting a clause, supporting war. Ironically, even the anti-war protestor actually themselves supporting war. Ever see an anti-war protestor does not wear any clothes and shoes?? How are you going to protest if you do not have money??

Sad truth is, this world, everything is about money, from the T-shirt you're wearing to the house you are living. When you projected it to our society, you can immediately see the same stuff going on again. Government were supported by Capitalist and the Capitalist were in turn supported by Corporation.

Budget wise, it does affect anyone who involved in direct warfare. Take the example i raise in my OP, they can approve a schema of 140 men charging a hill with 40% KIA and WIA, this cost a lot less than risking an AC-130 being shot down with maybe 15-20% casualty. Another sad truth behind war is, human live worth less than machinary.

10 days? I bet you everything I own most of these posters will have changed their minds half way through. If not then there would be a more deep psychological problem if you find it better to live scavenging the streets and making sense of the vague religious prophecies to be coming true.

lol actually, i don't quite know actually, i had never been on 10 days straight MRE, i had it for 3 days for an Ops. I can only tell you hot chow never felt so good before

Yeah, those keyboard warrior have their comfort at home sitting inside an airconditioned room, of course they can have any kind of verbal diarrea they can have. it is a different world overthere and sitting in my lounge

@jhungary Great piece.Thank you.As you said you go to war for the next guy or the guy beside you.Why do people join the armed forces in the first place.Compared to any other job Military is unique.What drives people to join a risky and potentially fatal job?I know there are other jobs from truckers to test pilots which are risky but what drives people to join a profession which requires you to kill or be killed?

People sign up for all sort of reason, From people who trying to get a steady 3 square a day to people who want to protect their country.

Why people joined up maybe different, but when that person become a soldier, he/she will have the same bond than anyman running down the line. People don't get to be a soldier until they understand and share the same bond with one another.

Let me tell you a story, there were once a Sergeant in my platoon, we were one of the earliest who went over in Iraq. He did a tour with me back in 2003, and one day out of a suddent he requested a transfer to another regiment in 2004, i talked to him, he wanted to go back to Iraq, well, i let that happened.

An year later, that same sergeant ask to go back to Iraq again, and this time i ask him why. and do you know what he said??

"If not me, who will?? If i don't go overthere and there will be a place for somebody else, if that guy's killed, it will be on me. And i can never live with that."

That, i guess, sums up it all....

The politicians' stirring phrases are meant to keep our eyes averted from the reality of war -- to make us imagine heroic young men marching in parades, winning glorious battles, and bringing peace and democracy to the world.

But war is something quite different from that.

It is your children or your grandchildren dying before they're even fully adults, or being maimed or mentally scarred for life. It is your brothers and sisters being taught to kill other people -- and to hate people who are just like themselves and who don't want to kill anyone either. It is your children seeing their buddies' limbs blown off their bodies.

It is hundreds of thousands of human beings dying years before their time. It is millions of people separated forever from the ones they loved.

It is the destruction of homes for which people worked for decades. It is the end of careers that meant as much to others as your career means to you.

It is the imposition of heavy taxes on you and on other Americans and on people in other countries -- taxes that remain long after the war is over. It is the suppression of free speech and the jailing of people who criticize the government.

It is the imposition of slavery by forcing young men to serve in the military.

It is goading the public to hate foreign people and races -- whether Arabs or Japanese or Cubans. It is numbing our sensibilities to cruelties inflicted on foreigners.

It is cheering at the news of foreign pilots killed in their planes, of young men blown to bits while trapped inside tanks, of sailors drowned at sea.

Other tragedies inevitably trail in the wake of war. Politicians lie even more than usual. Secrecy and cover-ups become the rule rather than the exception. The press becomes even less reliable.

War is genocide, torture, cruelty, propaganda, dishonesty, and slavery.

Yeah, the problem is, people sitting at home have no way to know what it takes for the young to fight, and people who know absolutely nothing wanting to have a human carnage for any ridicious reason, that enrage me

Thanks for your comment tho

@jhungary On the topic of obeying the officer with a higher rank, from character development classes (Civil Air Patrol the USAF's auxiliary), I believe that coincides with the first core value, integrity. Integrity states when the officer with a higher rank gives you commands that is immoral, the person shouldn't follow that command, but it also breaks the chain-of-command (kind of). Is that true? Thanks for the reply.

The theme is what kind of situation you are in.

In peace time, Men disobey order all the time, when i order someone to clean barrack, latrine, and it's still dirty when i come back and inspect it. The fact behind is not what will happen when you disobeying an order, but rather when??

In war. Things is a bit..., i don't know the word for it, foggy??

Say for an example, you are ordered to advance 100 meters in an open field, and your objective is to set up a defence line overwatch, but there are nothing for cover beyond the 75 meter mark, if you, as a Squad leader or platoon leader, only advanced up to 75 meter and set up DP on it, will it say you disobey an order up top??

I would say, commander follow orders, regardless on how immoral or ridicious it was, but the skill of interpreting an order is what seperate a good commander and the rest of us. Sometime you need to think how to make that order make sense to you, and you do allow to change (or using my word, interpreting) the order inorder to make sense.

However, when you are saying an outright refusal of order, that would be a different matter.

In short, i can only say this, you have your right to refuse to follow any order that you think it does not make sense. but the top brass also have right to all sort of thing from relieve you from your command, to have you shot.

There are actually cases that a ruling on order is found to be illogicial after a court martial, but that person who refused the order in the end were strip of the command anyway. Kind of like when you wistleblow, you can never work in the same field ever again. Even in the end turns out you are right.

Did i asnwer your question or you want further explanation

 

[visom]

@HongWu

 

[Snomannen]

War is an opportunity for mankind to gain pleasure of killing mankind.

 

[nana41]

War is an natural subject on a defence forum, the aim of a Defence Force or a Military is to fight a war, many membere here talk about war, many of those go into deep and advocate one and sing praise and bang wardrum all over the place. But what do you actually know about war?? Let me, a veteran of 1 and a half war, show you the rope.

War is a concept, where 2 parties or more, fought to achieve some goal. An Objective if you insist to put a word for it.

People who have an education, whom have a TV set will tell you, War is a glorious thing, to die for your country is proud, and the excitment of war, the thrill you get from killing your enemy is satisifying feeling. And that most of them seems to think War is one of the way (Some say the ONLY way) for power projection.

What is war, really?

War, as i said, is a concept to settle a conflict, an conflict of idea perhaps, but a conflict nonetheness. The problem with war is, no two side always agree with each other on the same term (That's why war is started in the first place) and most importantly, most ususally, the one that actually start the argument on either side (The person who started the war), would not be in any part of that war.

You see, soldier follow orders, and when you are a soldier, regardless of rank, you would always have people above you that out rank you, and you always have people who listen to you. So, in Army term, shiite roll downhill and everyone, from General to Private, are simply following orders.

The orders, or objective (Another army term) however, is vague...It got pipe-down, translated thru different layer of rank and protocol and it defined and refined over and over again during the chain of command. And the order it came from the very top is very much unregonizible when the 2LT ordering his platoon and the private or sergeant who follow it.

Soldier follow orders, no matter how ridicious it was, the problem is not the order itself, but the people who gave those order. See, in company level, each of us is just doing our job, how you could perform an attack, and try to minimal the risk that your men expose to. The reason is simple, because wherever your men go, you are usually just steps behind. Sometime to most of the time, you are actually in front, damn that lead by example bullshite...

Whatever you do, you think of your men, and when it got down to smaller and more individual, the reckoning is simple. "It is your life"

Things is not the same work in Battalion Level. They have to please the staff level people, the top brass, and their leadership constitution and position is weak too, i mean, being relieved of command of a battalion is a very much "THE BIGGEST JOKE" you can get in the military. so, arse-kissing is a must for some of the battalion CO.

As for how to please your boss?? Well, by taking riskes. You do something other wouldn't, you trying to outdo each other. How far my battalion goes verus how far does yours goes? How many objective our battalion took vs how many yours took. Battalion commander have a things for out doing each other, it would have been fine when you are in peace time when you are talking about how many clicks your battalion march, how many dish yours wash, how many barrack cleaned and so on. In war, those "Objective" would become how many enemy your battalion neutralised, how many insurgencey enclave neutralised, how many suspect insurgent you took prisoner and how much ground you had covered. Those kind of things does not comes with the risk of the people who are actually doing it, i don't see my battalion commaner next to me when we took that objective in Badghdad or Fullajah.

However, that ain't the worse, the shiite is smellier when it rolled higher in the chain of command. Now, we are talking about the stars, and the bird. They only have two things in mind. Where is my objective, and when can i achieve my objective. For them, their order is simple, it could be "I need that hill", "I need your battalions to move 2 mile North of us" and followed by the question "When can your battalion get there??" Did they have the feel for the little guys that actaully make that happen? Well.........

They do battlefield accessment however, a mathematical calculation on how quick a fully equipped battalion can move, against the level of defence. All BS to the lowly soldier, execpt when it goes down to the casualty prediction. For the Generals and Colonels, you are just a number, not a name, nor not even a serial number, just a percentage, the percentage of people they need for the objective. They don't care about you, hell, they don't even know you.

The top brass is not stupid, they know it would be useless to capture an objective with heavy casualty, by then you will not have enough to hold the objective. So, they will do a casualty estimation everytime they start a major ops. For example, it would be acceptable if we suffer 40% casualty in order to take that particular objective, be that a hill, a bunker or a country. But it would not be acceptable if we suffer 50% casualty. Quite caring, don't ya think?? Do you know what that means?

That means, when you stand infront of a heavily fortified hilltop, it is acceptable for you to lose 40% of your people (Yourselve maybe included) to charge that hill with basic infantry equipment. That is because the same top brass think the help from an AC-130 is not economical for said battle. You still don't get it?? That mean you, and 40% of the people around you are acceptable loses for that particular objective. Now, tell me, what would you think if you are the person that's standing infront of that objective and prepare to carry out the order??

Oh, i forgot to mention one thing, everybody start from scratch, meaning you have to go thru the stage of getting crap, then you can dish out some, NOBODY START FROM THE TOP

If Half naked photo is begining,should we expect topless very soo?

 

[jhungary]

@HongWu

lol calling him up and he can blast his way to a total nuclear war??

If Half naked photo is begining,should we expect topless very soo?

What the heck are you talking about??

War is an opportunity for mankind to gain pleasure of killing mankind.

I would say you are right, IF YOU THINK PEOPLE ARE CRAZY.

Nobody gain any pleasure killing another man/woman/child you may think it's necessary, but it's not. I don't know about how war is fought in other place, but in America. soldier follow rules, and even tho that rules seen too many of soldier die because they follow it, and because the enemy did not.

If war is here because people enjoy or taking pleasure killing other people, then i guess we don't need soldiers, we would have just send a bunch of convicted murderer to the enemies.

 

[visom]

lol calling him up and he can blast his way to a total nuclear war??



What the heck are you talking about??



I would say you are right, IF YOU THINK PEOPLE ARE CRAZY.

Nobody gain any pleasure killing another man/woman/child you may think it's necessary, but it's not. I don't know about how war is fought in other place, but in America. soldier follow rules, and even tho that rules seen too many of soldier die because they follow it, and because the enemy did not.

If war is here because people enjoy or taking pleasure killing other people, then i guess we don't need soldiers, we would have just send a bunch of convicted murderer to the enemies.

Haha he needs this more than anyone else. Greatly written though, I enjoyed reading it.

 

[asad71]

1.The military law says unlawful orders/commands are not to be obeyed. That's the book. In practice on ground this can be quite different. Personal loyalty, loyalty to comrades/unit, unquestioned obedience that has been conditioned into the mind, effects of motivational programs and personal discipline are some factors that come into conflict. It is v difficult to question the commander when it is always accepted that the commander knows more and has his goals/reasons which are not known to the under-command.That is how the military machine functions - and is different from a group of marauders.

2. The military is careful in selecting an officer / commander at all level, and then training him constantly so that, among other things, qualities of a leader is inculcated in him.A good leader will not give an unlawful command/order.

 

[Snomannen]

I would say you are right, IF YOU THINK PEOPLE ARE CRAZY.

Nobody gain any pleasure killing another man/woman/child you may think it's necessary, but it's not. I don't know about how war is fought in other place, but in America. soldier follow rules, and even tho that rules seen too many of soldier die because they follow it, and because the enemy did not.

If war is here because people enjoy or taking pleasure killing other people, then i guess we don't need soldiers, we would have just send a bunch of convicted murderer to the enemies.

People ARE crazy.
Have you read the history about how 狄人 destroyed 衛國?
Besides soldiers are convicted murderer, legally.

 

[jhungary]

Haha he needs this more than anyone else. Greatly written though, I enjoyed reading it.

lol thanks, but i doubt Hongwoo will last for 4 second coming up here

1.The military law says unlawful orders/commands are not to be obeyed. That's the book. In practice on ground this can be quite different. Personal loyalty, loyalty to comrades/unit, unquestioned obedience that has been conditioned into the mind, effects of motivational programs and personal discipline are some factors that come into conflict. It is v difficult to question the commander when it is always accepted that the commander knows more and has his goals/reasons which are not known to the under-command.That is how the military machine functions - and is different from a group of marauders.

2. The military is careful in selecting an officer / commander at all level, and then training him constantly so that, among other things, qualities of a leader is inculcated in him.A good leader will not give an unlawful command/order.

Basically yes, UCMJ prevent soldier from following unlawful command, such as fiegn surrender and attack unarmed civilian.

Truth is very far from it tho, in war, soldier follow orders or people dies. Worse, if you don't go where everybody goes, you are getting isolated. It will be theres them and you're you. And you can't fight any war alone.

Problem is, where the loyalty of a soldier lies?? Do they think they are closer to the unit? or closer to the command??

Each order command gave have some value on it, even if you are talking about shooting innocent civilian (Discounting Revenge killing, there usually a reason behind the command calling for such order) problem is, how you take care of the order and how you get by doing them is 2 different things.

It's a point of geting by your unit or getting by the command, and you cannot function as a competant leader if you try to do both, and this is the point of choice, and what people generally refer to as "Burden of Command"

 

[asad71]

lol thanks, but i doubt Hongwoo will last for 4 second coming up here



Basically yes, UCMJ prevent soldier from following unlawful command, such as fiegn surrender and attack unarmed civilian.

Truth is very far from it tho, in war, soldier follow orders or people dies. Worse, if you don't go where everybody goes, you are getting isolated. It will be theres them and you're you. And you can't fight any war alone.

Problem is, where the loyalty of a soldier lies?? Do they think they are closer to the unit? or closer to the command??

Each order command gave have some value on it, even if you are talking about shooting innocent civilian (Discounting Revenge killing, there usually a reason behind the command calling for such order) problem is, how you take care of the order and how you get by doing them is 2 different things.

It's a point of geting by your unit or getting by the command, and you cannot function as a competant leader if you try to do both, and this is the point of choice, and what people generally refer to as "Burden of Command"

A commander has to bear the burden. That's part of the deal. How well does he do it depends on his social/family background, upbringing / education and training.

 

[Slayer786]

This is a Defence forum. That means the members here ARE interested in past, present and future wars. They all like to read about them and discuss them. What is the point if everyone decides here that WAR is useless, not good for anyone and it should stop. LOL than WHAT IS THE POINT?
If you want to be peaceful, then join a Peace forum and discuss about PEACE.
I find that boring.
For me I want to read and appreciate the sacrifices made by our brave soldiers against incredible odds.
Dont call me a warmonger, I know wars are not good, but when you see injustice being done on innocent, you want to go and stop it where ever it is happening like in Indian Occupied Kashmir or Palestine or Syria.

 

[RangerPK]

When you are not prepared for war, you become a victim of one way genocide...

 

[jhungary]

This is a Defence forum. That means the members here ARE interested in past, present and future wars. They all like to read about them and discuss them. What is the point if everyone decides here that WAR is useless, not good for anyone and it should stop. LOL than WHAT IS THE POINT?
If you want to be peaceful, then join a Peace forum and discuss about PEACE.
I find that boring.
For me I want to read and appreciate the sacrifices made by our brave soldiers against incredible odds.
Dont call me a warmonger, I know wars are not good, but when you see injustice being done on innocent, you want to go and stop it where ever it is happening like in Indian Occupied Kashmir or Palestine or Syria.

What you are looking for is not an defence forum, what you are looking for is defence force, you should just go join the military.

So you want to hear story about how brave soldier fight? Do you want to hear mind?

Do you want to hear how I kill a 12 years old, but shooting him 4 times with a 50 cal, or I stop and have my convoy ambush? Or I simply follow my order to run him over?

Or you want to hear my platoon medic describe his job as picking up body parts and putting fluid in before someone bled out?

You want to hear story? You better experience it yourselves

 

[Slayer786]

What you are looking for is not an defence forum, what you are looking for is defence force, you should just go join the military.

So you want to hear story about how brave soldier fight? Do you want to hear mind?

Do you want to hear how I kill a 12 years old, but shooting him 4 times with a 50 cal, or I stop and have my convoy ambush? Or I simply follow my order to run him over?

Or you want to hear my platoon medic describe his job as picking up body parts and putting fluid in before someone bled out?

You want to hear story? You better experience it yourselves

I am not belittling anyone here. Whenever war occurs atrocities occur and will continue to happen. It is upto the individual to rise above it all and defend the weak. War is a ferocious beast which is unleashed in all men fighting. But it is upto the individual to control it in himself.
Now injuries like that can happen when an accident occur during driving a vehicle, or travelling by trains. So should we also avoid doing all that. Because they can cause injury.
What about the defense of your motherland when someone attacks you and kills innocent people in your country. Should we go and preach those attacking us that War is an evil thing and teach them about peace.
War is sometimes a necessity and honorable men are separated here from trash.
Our heroes have sacrificed their lives in these wars and I salute them. Given a chance if I am needed then I will definitely fight for my country.

 

[jhungary]

I am not belittling anyone here. Whenever war occurs atrocities occur and will continue to happen. It is upto the individual to rise above it all and defend the weak. War is a ferocious beast which is unleashed in all men fighting. But it is upto the individual to control it in himself.
Now injuries like that can happen when an accident occur during driving a vehicle, or travelling by trains. So should we also avoid doing all that. Because they can cause injury.
What about the defense of your motherland when someone attacks you and kills innocent people in your country. Should we go and preach those attacking us that War is an evil thing and teach them about peace.
War is sometimes a necessity and honorable men are separated here from trash.
Our heroes have sacrificed their lives in these wars and I salute them. Given a chance if I am needed then I will definitely fight for my country.

First of all, I don't intent to sound harsh, I was having a bad day when I was replying you. If my word sounded harsh or out of line, I apologise here

Problem with, it's always the same, ever since I came back from Afghanistan, everyone ask me what it's like over there or did I kill anyone, or how do I feel? Occasionally someone will berate my military service overseas and believe what we do was wrong

I brush them all away and I reply "thanks for asking" give him a smile and left

I served 2 tours, that's enough for me, I don't think I am a coward for not wanting more, just I did see enough war. People keep asking me about war story the premises is this, I probably never want to tell anyone, people think war story is exciting, Hollywood movie is exciting, getting shot at pinned down and chaos everywhere is not exciting at all, I was scare to death firsttime being shot at for real, I don't know what to do. Call it cliche you will, but that is the moment your training kicks in

Been there for over 21 months, I just don't see how glory it was fighting for your country, heroism and bravery stuff did occurs from time to time, but there are nothing because of your country, yet they are the one who send you to war, yet they don't really care about your own demise, strange, isn't it?

I will still fight for the person next tome, but I have enough of serving my country BS, probably I am just an O 3, nothing I said actually mean anything