WE PAKISTANIS WILL LOVE THIS CONSPIRACY THEORY

[S-2]

"...the implication (as I read it) that many of the members here have no desire to have the government invest in social infrastructure, is incorrect."

Oh, I think that you're wrong. I'm sure it's SOMEWHERE in everybody's mind. Tough to say you don't wish for a child's education. Most would look like uncaring, insensitive fools- correct?

"its all about priorities for our country!"

In the face of compelling and competing needs in a nation of limited resources, one must order accordingly.

Kasrkin's article is interesting-

"Under a rational assumption, the logical course for Pakistan would be to come to terms with the status quo power of India. But Pakistan is psychologically unwilling to accept India's superiority and political dominance. It can accept primacy—but not hegemony. Strategic culture demands a “never say die" attitude of acceptance of strategic defeat—and subservience remains a non-option."

Naturally, accepting this strategem would be self-neutering. Better to forever lag in all relevant economic indicators at an exponentially accelerating pace until somewhere down the road a synergistic confluence attains critical mass and you are rendered utterly incapable and irrelevant relative to your larger, more vital, and dynamic neighbor ala' poof. Fini

Think for a moment before slamming me. Do you see a narrowing of the strategic gap any time soon? Do you see proxies in Kashmir providing you not simply a means of resistance but an end-goal strategy to self-determination and water resources? Do you see your economy racing to catch and, then, surpass this burgeoning giant at your doorstep?

If not, how about a "strategic time-out". Bare your throat. DARE India to smash Pakistan in the face of universal outrage to a meek and compliant nation bent only on devoting it's miniscule resources to the greatest needs and that which offers the largest ROI-education, civil institutional reform, and public infrastructure.

A great big "WE QUIT. COME AND GET US AND OUR HEADACHES-IF YOU"RE FOOL ENOUGH TO DO SO. WE'VE MORE IMPORTANT MATTERS THAN PRIDE OF PLACE. IT'S AN UNAFFORDABLE LUXURY AT PRESENT".

Maybe that child who needs a school and three squares a day to fill the hole in his belly might move up the priority list a tad. I doubt so otherwise unless the rest of us choose to subsidize your misplaced ambitions.

O.K. Bash away...

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

S-2:

The 'bashing' has already been initiated by you - I am not sure what you expect when you ridicule and disparage an entire people.

The desire for improving social infrastructure isn't 'somewhere' in the minds of Pakistanis, for most it is one of the prime issues that needs to be addressed. You are incapable of realizing this because in your prejudice you have already dehumanized most Pakistanis, as is obvious from the implications in your comments.

At the same time, all costs do have to be prioritized - education at the cost of Pakistan's freedom is not a bargain we are willing to make, and it isn't a bargain any nation should make.

If you feel so kindly towards letting other entities 'smash their fists in your face', let AQ blow down some more towers in your cities. Disband the military and work on those inner cities. Don't lecture us about surrendering our freedom to the Indians on your say so of ensuring good behavior by putting them on notice of a detention by the world community in case of aggression.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

S-2:

"Do you see proxies in Kashmir providing you not simply a means of resistance but an end-goal strategy to self-determination and water resources? Do you see your economy racing to catch and, then, surpass this burgeoning giant at your doorstep?"

Proxies as 'useful tools' have outlived their life. I have long advocated that point, and many other Pakistanis have as well. Nations however take a bit longer to get over the inertia driving those policies, in Pakistan it seems to be occurring as we witness the blow back of some of those policies.

Given the sheer size of India's population, not many people see the Pakistani economy as surpassing the Indian one, I am not sure what gave you that idea. On the other hand, there is tremendous potential of us equaling or surpassing them on per capita indicators, and to a large extent we hung in with them on those numbers until the last year or so.

Passing the burgeoning giant has no value. We can accomplish what we need, socially and militarily, by maintaining relative per capita growth and development.

 

[TruthSeeker]

I'm surprised you guys are taking this thread seriously. When I read the original post I think the author has his tongue stuck hard in his cheek and a devilish smile in his eyes. I think it's a joke, meant to generate letters to the editor, create controversy and sell his newspapers. Don't fall for it......

 

[S-2]

"You are incapable of realizing this because in your prejudice you have already dehumanized most Pakistanis"

Not so obvious but not surprising. About what I expected, I suppose.

Pick the worst ghetto in America and measure it's literacy rate against your national average much less your worst locale, if you dare, before resorting to equivocation. Nationally we run about 97-99%. How about Pakistan? Below 50%? How about in Baluchistan or FATA? Women?

Let me know when the Indian Air Force drives an aircraft of two into a downtown Karachi skyscraper.

Your choices and your priorities are plain to see. So too the results. Saadahmed has twice accused me of dehumanizing Pakistanis. So too now you. Le mot est en vogue, n'est pas?

I hope that you'll understand if I suggest you're not remotely close and my willingness to engage is patent evidence otherwise. OTOH, nothing is more de-humanizing than not being able to read a prescription bottle for your children- or them unable to assist. THAT's de-humanizing.

No skin off me though. Your chosen priorities diminish your nation at an exponetially accelerating pace and that's not me driving that bus.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

"You are incapable of realizing this because in your prejudice you have already dehumanized most Pakistanis"

Not so obvious but not surprising. About what I expected, I suppose.

Pick the worst ghetto in America and measure it's literacy rate against your national average much less your worst locale, if you dare, before resorting to equivocation. Nationally we run about 97-99%. How about Pakistan? Below 50%? How about in Baluchistan or FATA? Women?

Let me know when the Indian Air Force drives an aircraft of two into a downtown Karachi skyscraper.

Your choices and your priorities are plain to see. So too the results. Saadahmed has twice accused me of dehumanizing Pakistanis. So too now you. Le mot est en vogue, n'est pas?

I hope that you'll understand if I suggest you're not remotely close and my willingness to engage is patent evidence otherwise. OTOH, nothing is more de-humanizing than not being able to read a prescription bottle for your children- or them unable to assist. THAT's de-humanizing.

No skin off me though. Your chosen priorities diminish your nation at an exponetially accelerating pace and that's not me driving that bus.

You'll get what you deserve S-2.

Pathetic attempts at trying to attain the 'high road' after demeaning an entire nation will get you nowhere. You have been accused of 'dehumanizing' because that is exactly what you have implied in your posts. Certainly there are Pakistanis on this forum who do the same when it comes to the West, but you have just unmasked yourself as the more articulate Western side of the same coin.

If I have misunderstood you, a simple clarification on your part woudl suffice, but it hasn't been forthcoming as of yet.

Oh certainly we aren't even close to US standards in social infrastructure, neither are the Indians for that matter, for whom you have nothing but slavish praise (endemic poverty and grand visions of the moon and Gorshkov??), but we haven't had 2 hundred odd years to develop all that either. The fact remains that your nation suffers from social problems that money could be used to address, and is instead routed to the military - priorities you see. How many children homeless and hungry is acceptable to avoid diverting money from the defence budget and ensuring they get taken care off?

Any clue as to what the literacy rate and condition of the social infrastructure was in 1947 when Pakistan was created? less than 15 percent. In sixty years we could have done a lot better, no doubt, but from the beginnings we had, it is an achievement to have it stand at 50 percent.

The point here is simple - Pakistan can afford to maintain a minimum conventional and nuclear deterrent and at the same time have enough resources left over to significantly improve its social infrastructure. It can do that today. The question is one of good leadership that formulates effective policy and processes and implements them, otherwise a billion saved from the defense budget will just be another billion down the drain.

Our chosen priorities, in terms of maintaining a minimum conventional and nuclear deterrent along with investing in social infrastructure, do not have the potential of diminishing the nation - that much was obvious until last year. What does have the potential of doing that is the WoT in Afghanistan and FATA, if it keeps going the direction it is, and no cut in defense budgets is going to fix that problem.

The Indian airforce doesn't have to drive an aircraft or two into a Karachi skyscraper, they cut apart Pakistan in 1971 by waging a proxy war of destabilization and terror starting in 1968. Far more damage than two towers being knocked down.

 

[jeypore]

Pakistan has the physical and material capability to fix itself and progress, I guarantee it...but we need to move away from capitalist and secular ideological thinking.

This sound more like prograssive policies, that has not shown to work. Why get away, i would think imbracing capitalist and secular idea tends to make the country grow even faster.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

I'm surprised you guys are taking this thread seriously. When I read the original post I think the author has his tongue stuck hard in his cheek and a devilish smile in his eyes. I think it's a joke, meant to generate letters to the editor, create controversy and sell his newspapers. Don't fall for it......

Indeed I thought it was an excellent satiric piece to be read in good humor, unfortunately S-2 (IMO) chose it to vilify Pakistanis as some sort of cold blooded, vile, warmongering creatures who care naught for their children and basic necessities.

 

[maqsad]

A pure immature-style article. Blaming everything on Pakistan, without discussing the real truth. The writer is talking about financial matters of a country but fails to tell who manages them. The strategic post of the ministry of Finance. Writer also fails to analyse how our finance ministers are imported from abroad, and they delibrtly make extremely screwed up policies which results in downfall of the country. Even if China/Saudia give out some greenbacks, the money will drain through those holes deliberately drilled inside our economy by bogus financial policies - made my imported finance ministers who mostly are Citybank trained bankers - sent by IMF/Worldbank etc. And due to this very reason, China offered to invest heavily in any project Pak Gov will come up with, rather then giving out raw money which will drain away after sometime.

So kindly dont blame the whole Pakistani nation, we only need to change a handful of people to drastically imporve this country, and yes, this aint a conspiracy theory, its a fact.

I agree, you have touched upon some of the key elements that this writer conveniently censored out of his article. Agent Mushy and Shopper Aziz did tremendous damage to the Pakistani economy, its armed forces and it's internal stability. Some people even go so far as to say that these two were "softening up the target" to make it easier for enemies to destroy the Pakistani state.

But I suppose this is how professional spindoctors work, they lie by omission rather than lying by misstatement of fact and steal the reader away from the real picture into a seemingly more attractive shoebox on the side.

The purpose of this article was to put people to sleep while cleverly stimulating them with a sarcastic new angle.

 

[S-2]

"unfortunately S-2 (IMO) chose it to vilify Pakistanis as some sort of cold blooded, vile, warmongering creatures..."

Your rhetorical excess goes too, too far. Rope yourself in, moderator.

" neither are the Indians for that matter, for whom you have nothing but slavish praise...

Ummm...you mean here-

"this burgeoning giant at your doorstep?"

Hardly slavish. Anywhere else, sir?

"...we haven't had 2 hundred odd years to develop all that either."

Neither have they with a population that now exceeds 1,000,000,000 by most estimates-

 

[S-2]

"Writer also fails to analyse how our finance ministers are imported from abroad, and they delibrtly make extremely screwed up policies which results in downfall of the country. Even if China/Saudia give out some greenbacks, the money will drain through those holes deliberately drilled inside our economy by bogus financial policies - made my imported finance ministers who mostly are Citybank trained bankers - sent by IMF/Worldbank etc."

Yup. Full circle here. Gotta love the observable accountability.

No surprise in this particularly circular-loop locale of narrowly-defined reinforcing group-think.

You boys having fun yet?

More of the same will get you...more of the same.

I think we've a consensus established. I'll withdraw. No need to strike such tenderly assuaged sensibilities regardless of fatman17's original article nor Kasrkin's offered addendum.

I'm sure that I've got it all wrong and you've a handle on the larger picture. Thanks.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Your rhetorical excess goes too, too far. Rope yourself in, moderator.

"There's a great interest here in nukes and chinese jets (war mongering) and defending honor, etc. All couched in a need, it seems, for near-immediate reward(vile cold blooded creatures).

Little interest in the elementary school education of a child and what may arise from lighting THAT spark in a couple of decades. (care naught for children and basic necessities)"

Nonetheless, your clarification, however oblique, accepted.

Ummm...you mean here-

"this burgeoning giant at your doorstep?"

Hardly slavish. Anywhere else, sir?

Neither have they with a population that now exceeds 1,000,000,000 by most estimates-

Yes indeed right there, keeping in mind the context of your post.

They haven't, but they did start of better than we did (at least better than West Pakistan) in terms of both social and industrial infrastructure.

Yet we maintained close parity in most economic and social indicators, until last year.

But all that is besides the point. Even with the current leadership and relatively staid policies Pakistan can progress. It is the instability arising out of Afghanistan and FATA that needs to be addressed - and I think we are in agreement that there is a desperate need for more of the PA's resources to be brought to bear in terms of significantly accelerating the drive against militants in FATA (along with massive investments in law enforcement and socio-economic sectors in that region).

Where we are in disagreement is the role the US needs to play to address Pakistani concerns with respect to leaving the East relatively 'undefended'.

One option could be negotiating a movement of proportional Indian military resources away from the LoC and IB to a point where a Pakistani deployment West is balanced out somewhat.

 

[jeypore]

Where we are in disagreement is the role the US needs to play to address Pakistani concerns with respect to leaving the East relatively 'undefended'.

One option could be negotiating a movement of proportional Indian military resources away from the LoC and IB to a point where a Pakistani deployment West is balanced out somewhat.

Mr. AM,

Why would India do such thing? Given the history of insergancy, why would India take a certain step that will grossly enrage the population even more. If you have noticed in recent years the terrorist activities have gain more strenght towards the west and middle part of India, while in Kashmire it has decreased due to large military pressence.

Given the article Pakistan has to find a way to grow itself with these distractions, and somehow find a way to gain economically. And you are right, that Pakistan can grow faster if afganistan and fata was curved and made more stable.

 

[Quwa]

This sound more like prograssive policies, that has not shown to work. Why get away, i would think imbracing capitalist and secular idea tends to make the country grow even faster.

Progressive policies that won't work? Secular and capitalist ideology have enslaved the majority of the people in the world. This ideology benefits an elite that is ridiculously rich, and a majority who live on less than $1-2 a day...and this $1-2 is based on Legal Tender and doesn't even EXIST! The people in this world have nothing.

 

[hasang20]

"You are incapable of realizing this because in your prejudice you have already dehumanized most Pakistanis"

Not so obvious but not surprising. About what I expected, I suppose.

Pick the worst ghetto in America and measure it's literacy rate against your national average much less your worst locale, if you dare, before resorting to equivocation. Nationally we run about 97-99%. How about Pakistan? Below 50%? How about in Baluchistan or FATA? Women?

Let me know when the Indian Air Force drives an aircraft of two into a downtown Karachi skyscraper.

Your choices and your priorities are plain to see. So too the results. Saadahmed has twice accused me of dehumanizing Pakistanis. So too now you. Le mot est en vogue, n'est pas?

I hope that you'll understand if I suggest you're not remotely close and my willingness to engage is patent evidence otherwise. OTOH, nothing is more de-humanizing than not being able to read a prescription bottle for your children- or them unable to assist. THAT's de-humanizing.

No skin off me though. Your chosen priorities diminish your nation at an exponetially accelerating pace and that's not me driving that bus.

ROFL dude i live in US too so i know how poverty is in here the truth is you never seen ghettos in here dawg.