WE PAKISTANIS WILL LOVE THIS CONSPIRACY THEORY

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

I see that you've steered WAY clear of Mr. Khan's comments that I highlighted. Well, I've addressed yours. Do so for mine. Does this Pakistani author get a pass not available to the yank. He certainly was logica, rational, and SPECIFIC in his identification. Crystalline even.

I read Khan's piece a long time ago, and skipped the link to his article this time around, so I'll have to go through it again.

On this particular quote of his:

"Under a rational assumption, the logical course for Pakistan would be to come to terms with the status quo power of India. But Pakistan is psychologically unwilling to accept India's superiority and political dominance. It can accept primacy—but not hegemony. Strategic culture demands a “never say die" attitude of acceptance of strategic defeat—and subservience remains a non-option."

When Khan suggests that Pakistan can accept India's primacy, but not hegemony and subservience, I see nothing wrong with that position. There aren't a lot of nations or people on this planet who would meekly accept 'subservience'.

Recognizing that we cannot match India 'gun for gun', or 'dollar for dollar', is accepting her primacy, and it was recognized a long time ago by the military establishment. Hence Pakistan's position of maintaining a 'minimum credible deterrent'. Contrast if you will the value of the military acquisitions planned and in the pipeline for India and Pakistan, and contrast the resources poured into, and the scope of, attaining strategic influence for each nation.

If Khan is arguing in favor of 'subservience' (cannot recall whether that was his conclusion) then I disagree with him as vehemently as I do with you, so long as the disputes between India and Pakistan remain unresolved.

 

[S-2]

You noted my comments to Muse. Fine. Did you note his response? I identified three select individuals and stand by those selections as prime examples. Evidently he agreed to a great extent. They aren't the only here by far. As you're a mod here, I'm certain you're aware of those whom qualify.

"Is this poisonous momentum impossible to arrest in the near-term? If so, then I'd likely advocate punative war of the most onerous type..."

I'm certain that you understand context. If so, then you'll note the question that prefaces my recommendation and then, equally, my conditional response "If so...". That's a large and important condition that you chose to ignore and absolutely appropriate if the answer to my question of "poisonous momentum" proves "no".

You'd also note, had you continued, my retraction. Evidently you didn't as that wasn't displayed here.

In sum, then, you were cherry-picking and that's o.k. but offered here at this thread as only half the story. I can easily do the same for your myriad comments scattered throughout though I'd completely prefer not to do so. Little gain and enduring enmity becomes all that's accrued.

I'm eager to discuss the substance of my points but conditions between us make impossible proceeding to your next post. Doing so would only afford me the privilege of reaping more of your unwarranted abuse.

I absolutely reject your assertion of prejudice and find the suggestion of such very repugnant.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

I disagree with your contention that your conditional response exonerates you - the fact that you even included the 'solutions' as part of your 'if so' is 'repugnant'.

What you articulated, under any circumstance or conditions, has no place in civilized discourse, nor should it be anywhere close to being considered 'part of a solution set', placed on a shelf or otherwise.

You have in fact referenced that particular 'solution' at least twice in the span of a few months, on different forums, which leads me to believe that you actually view it as a viable option, which is extremely disappointing.

Doing so would only afford me the privilege of reaping more of your unwarranted abuse.

Avoiding the above 'solution set' would be a good way to avoid recrimination.

I have no issues with you raising the 'education vs strategic interests' argument as a matter of state policy.

I do have issues when, as I understood it, you suggest it is a cultural trait.

To clarify further, I do accept that arguing for a 'generalized approach' to the argument of 'guns vs butter', was incorrect from the perspective of this thread, as Vinod pointed out, though referencing the efforts, or lack of, of other nations in attaining some balance between the two is legitimate as a means of comparison.

 

[S-2]

"What you articulated, under any circumstance or conditions, has no place in civilized discourse, nor should it be anywhere close to being considered 'part of a solution set', placed on a shelf or otherwise.

You have in fact referenced that particular 'solution' at least twice in the span of a few months, on different forums, which leads me to believe that you actually view it as a viable option, which is extremely disappointing."

Actually, it does have it's place and therefore is a viable option- as a matter of nat'l survival and last resort. Further, it's been practiced as part of the nat'l policy of any number of nations during W.W. II. Only nuclear weapons, and their associated costs, has led to the onset of limited and proxy wars.

That option of total and unremitting war, therefore, rests at the hands of any policy maker, regardless of your opinions about "civilized discourse". My conditions outlined, briefly, the circumstance underwhich it may receive full consideration. As those conditions remain unforecasted, it is appropriate to "shelve" but not forget altogether.

You may argue that point with various powers that be in nat'l security policy circles. Should you choose to do so, I recommend starting in Islamabad where I'm sure that option exists on their shelves like many other nations.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Actually, it does have it's place and therefore is a viable option- as a matter of nat'l survival and last resort.

Within the context you used, referencing national survival is over the top. The three thousand dead in 911 do not justify it, ten thousand dead do not justify it.

Our policy makers consider the option, as did yours facing a Soviet Union, because of the possibility of total annihilation. You face no such threat, even if Afghanistan had not been invaded and AQ continued to use it as a haven. Using it outside of that context, and without that level of threat, as you did in reference to FATA and Pakistan, is 'repugnant'.

 

[S-2]

"The three thousand dead in 911 do not justify it, ten thousand dead do not justify it."

And for that reason, at present and by choice, it's been shelved-but not removed as it's hardly inappropriate as a policy option. Failure to find enough imams and theology students, etc from my discussion with muse to reverse this momentum may lead to the day where that's not the case.

We're now running in circles through no fault of mine. I'm clear enough. You persist in pressing an impossible point of my alleged "prejudice" which I categorically reject. I could now care less of your opinion about my "prejudice" much less whether this harangue from you moves beyond to anything of substance.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

You persist in pressing an impossible point of my alleged "prejudice" which I categorically reject.

You can reject it all you want, but the fact remains that your initial comments in this thread were a broad generalization that attributed the mentioned flaws to Pakistanis as a cultural trait. You refused to clarify your comments when I pointed out that such a generalization was incorrect, choosing instead to engage in sarcastic tripe reiterating the same position.

And now you want to justify comments arguing for the nuking and salting of Pakistan by arguing that it is 'only under the condition that not enough Imams and theology students will be available'.

Whatever.

You are correct though that this is becoming circular, and I see no point in continuing this.

 

[Energon]

This is a very well written article where the author has brilliantly woven satire with poignant social commentary to put forth a very critical, but sobering message.

While the important matters concerning the mismanagement of the economic and education sectors in Pakistan (issues I’ve personally been involved with for some time now) have been discussed; everyone has overlooked the fact that this bipartite article also addresses another critical aspect of Pakistan’s internal plight which often goes unchecked. It's not just the lack of education among the non-urban populace that has presented a great problem in Pakistan’s history, but also the over indulgence of conspiracy theories among a significant portion of the educated urban elite. Of late, it has been a fascinating experience for me to hear many of Pakistan's vetted intellectuals and journalists address this topic in detail. Unfortunately outside the conference halls of high profile Western Universities and think tank/policy centers, nobody actually gets/wants to hear what they have to say.

It's actually both scary and sad to see how pseudo intellectual hacks like Zaid Hamid and Ahmed Quraishi have become the messiahs of "current affairs" and geopolitical-strategic analysis', getting the younger generation to parrot their ludicrous “theories” devoid of reason or reality as the gospel truth with the grand objective of protecting Pakistan’s divinely sanctioned “honor” at all costs. These quacks have been dispensing their proverbial opiates so that their consumer base (addicts)- the educated people of Pakistan can pacify themselves by thinking that either nothing is wrong, or everyone else is just as wrong if not wrong-er and that there’s a concerted “US-Hindu-Zionist” movement to “destroy Pakistan” as part of some global conspiracy.

Unfortunately this is far from the truth, and the current world opinion on Pakistan is a direct reflection of this stark reality; and no amount of false erudition, hyperbole, spin doctoring and/or jingoistic bravado is going to change the abysmal prognosis of this situation. With the educated Pakistanis (particularly the youth) distracted, there is very little hope that a substantial movement can be initiated to actually bring Pakistan's crumbling social fabric back from the edge of the abyss. And until there is a visible change within Pakistan’s society where it becomes responsible for its actions and can be held accountable for what goes on or more importantly- comes out of its collective, Pakistan will always be treated as a diseased and deficient pariah unworthy of trust, respect, equatability or any consideration, where the main medium of communication is through pilotless drones and laser guided bombs.

As a side note, it’s also sad to see how this once decent forum has been MBI Munshitized into the ground.

P.S. not that it matters…. But the classic dissolution pattern of this thread is exactly why contributing to PDF is no longer a constructive exercise for me.

 

[fatman17]

there is very little hope that a substantial movement can be initiated to actually bring Pakistan's crumbling social fabric back from the edge of the abyss.

i think mumbai has had a sobering effect on the psyche of the nation! i really and truly believe that a "reversal" of blinkered policies has started. pakistan is facing the stark reality of "total isolation" by the international community (esp after the UNSC resolution, duly supported by our "life-long friend" China). the policy of strike & forget will not suffice anymore.

 

[Energon]

i think mumbai has had a sobering effect on the psyche of the nation! i really and truly believe that a "reversal" of blinkered policies has started. pakistan is facing the stark reality of "total isolation" by the international community (esp after the UNSC resolution, duly supported by our "life-long friend" China). the policy of strike & forget will not suffice anymore.

I truly hope that this is the case, for everybody's sake. However the first important step would be to clear up the communication channels within Pakistan so that ideas can be exchanged freely without the fear of nationalism or religious based excommunication and/or retribution. I have noticed that this is one thing Westerners and Indians take for granted.

 

[fatman17]

I truly hope that this is the case, for everybody's sake. However the first important step would be to clear up the communication channels within Pakistan so that ideas can be exchanged freely without the fear of nationalism or religious based excommunication and/or retribution. I have noticed that this is one thing Westerners and Indians take for granted.

except for a few recent unfortunate incidents, ideas and dialogue are being exchanged freely over the air waves. a far, far better situation than say 5 years ago.

one key point was the near total rejection of the religious parties in the recent elections, which is a clear reflection of the moderate democratic views of the pakistani nation.

 

[fatman17]

thanks for opening this thread!

 

[Energon]

thanks for opening this thread!

Actually it is I who should be thanking you for opening up this thread.

one key point was the near total rejection of the religious parties in the recent elections, which is a clear reflection of the moderate democratic views of the pakistani nation

I think it is important to discern a society's carte blanche adherence to religiosity from selective endorsements. This is what differentiates Afghanistan and up to a certain extent Saudi Arabia from Pakistan; but at the same time it also presents as a different challenge. When it comes to philosophical outlooks, Pakistan I assume sports a wide array of individuals (compared to the other two countries) from hardliner religiomaniacs to atheists; the problem is that on account of underlying political reasons, there is a substantial support for Islamist militancy which extends beyond the realm of religious beliefs. Hence we end up with a scenario where a nation with a (relatively) diverse mindset and a history of modernism becomes a hotbed for mass Islamist radicalism and militancy. The support these movements obtain isn't necessarily guided by perverse religious doctrine alone. Rather its a mix of of misguided populist notions of ethnic, social, spiritual pride combined with the political (heavily mixed with military objectives in Pakistan) maneuvering of the elite. A majority of the people, bureaucrats, civilian and military leaders have no desire of ascribing to Islamism (as evinced by the election trends); and have suffered greatly from the outfall of having given religiomaniacs a free reign in the past. The question is will the society as a whole realize that it cannot have selective bias toward certain terrorist groups who are able to further political and military objectives against India and Afghanistan?

 

[Rafael]

well somehow i tend to agree with this article and i seriously think that its only us that has to be blamed for the current situation in our country..because as a nation we have not left with much of moral values...our elites have totally gone dumb...they dont care what happens to the masses and the country, they have already started thinking to migrate to other countries...our middle class has shown even lesser performance....we as a nation are not ready to even put on a little protest for what the USA, INDIA and our politicians are doing to us...

we dont protest when our cheif justice is being sacked, we dont protest when the dictator of the country is selling the citizens to USA for the sake of some bloody dollars, we dont protest when our so called ally violates our soverignity on daily bases, we dont protest when our priministers and presidents spend 100 of bilions on their foriegn trips...we dont even care that who is our leader... what ethical and moral values does he/she possess?


though i am not a big fan of bhutto but i wonder what he would have thought while waiting for death ( darpook qoumon ke bahadur leaders ka yehi hashar hota hai)

moreover as individuals we have gone corrupt like anything....

we have to learn alot and i fear that we have already wasted a lot of time and this is our final chance....may be we would not get the next one..

sorry for being so offensive but couldnt help it...

 

[fatman17]

well somehow i tend to agree with this article and i seriously think that its only us that has to be blamed for the current situation in our country..because as a nation we have not left with much of moral values...our elites have totally gone dumb...they dont care what happens to the masses and the country, they have already started thinking to migrate to other countries...our middle class has shown even lesser performance....we as a nation are not ready to even put on a little protest for what the USA, INDIA and our politicians are doing to us...

we dont protest when our cheif justice is being sacked, we dont protest when the dictator of the country is selling the citizens to USA for the sake of some bloody dollars, we dont protest when our so called ally violates our soverignity on daily bases, we dont protest when our priministers and presidents spend 100 of bilions on their foriegn trips...we dont even care that who is our leader... what ethical and moral values does he/she possess?


though i am not a big fan of bhutto but i wonder what he would have thought while waiting for death ( darpook qoumon ke bahadur leaders ka yehi hashar hota hai)

moreover as individuals we have gone corrupt like anything....

we have to learn alot and i fear that we have already wasted a lot of time and this is our final chance....may be we would not get the next one..

sorry for being so offensive but couldnt help it...

i may not agree with all you said but Kudos for speaking your mind!