We Like Them Dumb And Ignorant

[RazorMC]

We can learn something from the UAE. They discouraged the madaaris and mutawwa system when they got wealthy and shifted towards a modern education system. This does not mean that Islamic studies need to be forgotten, instead it is compulsory for all Muslim students as part of their school syllabus with an option of pursuing a degree in Islamic studies at university level.

This ensures the conformity with the rest of the world and better quality of religious education as well.

And depending only on madaaris will get us nowhere. You can't regulate financial markets by reciting religious text or develop technology by quoting a hadeeth. It just doesn't work. There is a good reason why the Prophet (PBUH) insisted Muslims to get a better education. By disowning development and technology, we will be harming Islam more than benefiting it.

 

[Porus]

I fixed your quote.

Madrassas exist to fill the void left behind by the public education sector. Even the OP admits that the vast majority of madrassas are not factories of extremism; their only fault is that they focus on religion to the exclusion of worldly subjects. I agree that it is a major shortcoming, but you can't blame the madrassas for that.

The blame lies with the govt. of Pakistan for its failure to provide adequate public education, and the fault, ultimately, lies with the Pakistani public who are too busy stuffing their bank accounts instead of paying taxes.

Partly agree with you.

The word Madrasa has become a synonym to religious terrorism and intolerance throughtout the world. The shortage of state-funded schools may be another reason, but the myopic policies of Zia was the main reason that caused the proliferation of puritanical Madrasas in some parts of Pakistan. These puritanical Madrasas, where the innocent minss are inculcated with the very distorted and rigid version of Islam, are the real reason for concern - nobody cares about those Madrasas where children are only sent to learn Quran by heart.

Most of the people don't love to pay taxes, but they do it because the authorities make sure that they pay their taxes and they pay them promptly. Even in the most civilized Scandinavian countries people pay their taxes because the legal repercussions of tax evasion can be disastrous. Even if their law ever becomes weak, they will soon learn how to avoid paying income tax. Those Pakistanis who are living in western countries pay their taxes on time or not? But it is also true that educated societies have a better sense of rights and responsibilities.

I fixed your quote.

Madrassas exist to fill the void left behind by the public education sector. Even the OP admits that the vast majority of madrassas are not factories of extremism; their only fault is that they focus on religion to the exclusion of worldly subjects. I agree that it is a major shortcoming, but you can't blame the madrassas for that.

The blame lies with the govt. of Pakistan for its failure to provide adequate public education, and the fault, ultimately, lies with the Pakistani public who are too busy stuffing their bank accounts instead of paying taxes.

Partly agree with you.

The word Madrasa has become a synonym to religious terrorism and intolerance throughtout the world. The shortage of state-funded schools may be another reason, but the myopic policies of Zia was the main reason that caused the proliferation of puritanical Madrasas in some parts of Pakistan. These puritanical Madrasas, where the innocent minss are inculcated with the very distorted and rigid version of Islam, are the real reason for concern - nobody cares about those Madrasas where children are only sent to learn Quran by heart.

Most of the people don't love to pay taxes, but they do it because the authorities make sure that they pay their taxes and they pay them promptly. Even in the most civilized Scandinavian countries people pay their taxes because the legal repercussions of tax evasion can be disastrous. Even if their law ever becomes weak, they will soon learn how to avoid paying income tax. Those Pakistanis who are living in western countries pay their taxes on time or not? But it is also true that educated societies have a better sense of rights and responsibilities.

 

[Dillinger]

I believe she was responding to the claims that extremism and terrorism are somehow unique to Islam and Muslims.

They are definitely not unique, but you will have to agree that terrorism is far more prevalent among those who claim to follow Islam. Islamic terrorism has also affected a far larger no. of nations than any other, no? Extremists and bigots abound in all societies and religions- we have our own in India, once or twice they've even taken the form of an actual armed organisation rather than some cultural or religious seminary and yet none of them are off striking targets in Europe or America- not even in Pakistan.

Perhaps this relative distinction is what @MST was getting at.

 

[RazorMC]

They are definitely not unique, but you will have to agree that terrorism is far more prevalent among those who claim to follow Islam. Islamic terrorism has also affected a far larger no. of nations than any other, no?
...

Because the definition of terrorism comes from a handful of sources.

When you start to define terrorism as any act that induces fear and terror in people, then there are bunch of things that come to mind. But unfortunately today's definition only brings up images of supposed Muslims blowing themselves up which is basically stereotyping.

Change the definition and you change the idea of a terrorist:

Killing people based on colour or beliefs is also a form of terrorism, but we call it racism and place it another category so it doesn't sound too horrible, yet it is one of the most common curse of the Western civilization.

 

[MST]

Because the definition of terrorism comes from a handful of sources.

When you start to define terrorism as any act that induces fear and terror in people, then there are bunch of things that come to mind. But unfortunately today's definition only brings up images of supposed Muslims blowing themselves up which is basically stereotyping.

Change the definition and you change the idea of a terrorist:

Killing people based on colour or beliefs is also a form of terrorism, but we call it racism and place it another category so it doesn't sound too horrible, yet it is one of the most common curse of the Western civilization.

Killing of innocent human/humans in a planned manner based on a (twisted) ideology is to me terrorism. Planned and Ideology are the key words here. And if this applies to certain form of racism (e.g. KKK) then it is terrorism. But you can't apply it to all incidents.

But what is more important is an unequivocal condemnation of terrorism in all forms. And what is happening on this thread is that we find some apologists who are trying to justify some form of it just because some one else has been supposedly involved in it.

 

[RazorMC]

Killing of innocent human/humans in a planned manner based on a (twisted) ideology is to me terrorism. Planned and Ideology are the key words here. And if this applies to certain form of racism (e.g. KKK) then it is terrorism. But you can't apply it to all incidents.

But what is more important is an unequivocal condemnation of terrorism in all forms. And what is happening on this thread is that we find some apologists who are trying to justify some form of it just because some one else has been supposedly involved in it.

Why can't we? Racism is a form of terrorism, no? Based on idiotic thoughts and opinions.

Anyone targetted on a racial basis is a victim of terrorism:
The Jews getting killed by Hitler were victims of this terrorism. African Americans getting lynched by white supremists were victims of terrorism. People dying due to bombs are victims of terrorism. People being victimized based on their beliefs or color or even association with Islam and Pakistan are more victims of terrorism.

If you can define an entire community or nation based on what a handful of people have to say or claim, then who is stopping us from defining others?

When we condemn terrorism, we should condemn all forms of it. Not just what some brainwashed puppet does.

 

[MST]

Why can't we? Racism is a form of terrorism, no? Based on idiotic thoughts and opinions.

Anyone targetted on a racial basis is a victim of terrorism:
The Jews getting killed by Hitler were victims of this terrorism. African Americans getting lynched by white supremists were victims of terrorism. People dying due to bombs are victims of terrorism. People being victimized based on their beliefs or color or even association with Islam and Pakistan are more victims of terrorism.

If you can define an entire community or nation based on what a handful of people have to say or claim, then who is stopping us from defining others?

When we condemn terrorism, we should condemn all forms of it. Not just what some brainwashed puppet does.

Please read my post again. There is not much to disagree here. And no one is defining an entire community. In fact I will be the first one to delink them. All we want is condemnation but some smart person came up with example of Hindus.

Everything I have highlighted in your post is terrorism. But the key here is Planned Killing based on an ideology. You can't call a random incident of killing a terrorism even if it was based on one of the biases.

Now give me one example where people following Islam are subjected to terrorism in other religious majority countries. Infact by this definition people following Islam are subjected to terrorism more in Islamic countries than anywhere else.

 

[Dillinger]

Because the definition of terrorism comes from a handful of sources.

When you start to define terrorism as any act that induces fear and terror in people, then there are bunch of things that come to mind. But unfortunately today's definition only brings up images of supposed Muslims blowing themselves up which is basically stereotyping.

Change the definition and you change the idea of a terrorist:

Killing people based on colour or beliefs is also a form of terrorism, but we call it racism and place it another category so it doesn't sound too horrible, yet it is one of the most common curse of the Western civilization.

So much like we have organized crime and then just plain and simple crime (both can and do include larceny, homicide, murder and well even bombings) one can categorize terrorism too. Perhaps that is what has got so many countries worried, the LTTE was a terrorist org- defined- under a banner and declared- its actions would then be defined as actions of a terrorist group. On the other hand a Lankan gets lynched in say India by a mob, that is mob violence and can be charged with homicide if the victim expires.

The legal definition of terrorism is actually pretty clear for most countries which have an anti-terrorism law, and the said laws define what terrorism constitutes.

So again, let me re frame my question- the prevalence (by no. of operatives, no. of groups and no. of attacks) of organized and armed terrorist groups is unfortunately still greater in the Islamic world than anywhere else, no?

 

[RazorMC]

...
But the key here is Planned Killing based on an ideology. You can't call a random incident of killing a terrorism even if it was based on one of the biases.

Now give me one example where people following Islam are subjected to terrorism in other religious majority countries. Infact by this definition people following Islam are subjected to terrorism more in Islamic countries than anywhere else.

We agree on most parts, but what you are explaining is planned terrorism vs a spontaneous one, there's no other difference. These people are fed hatred until they get the chance to take it out on someone. These acts are similar and not different.

Muslims getting killed anywhere because of their beliefs are victims of this crime. And it's not just Islam, anyone getting attacked for his/her belief or ethnic background is a victim.

But by limiting the use of the word "terrorism" to the activities of self-proclaimed Muslims, the non-Muslim world is doing injustice to over a billion people.

 

[RazorMC]

...
The legal definition of terrorism is actually pretty clear for most countries which have an anti-terrorism law, and the said laws define what terrorism constitutes.

So again, let me re frame my question- the prevalence (by no. of operatives, no. of groups and no. of attacks) of organized and armed terrorist groups is unfortunately still greater in the Islamic world than anywhere else, no?

The first sentence is exactly what I was trying to point out. The definition has been limited to certain activities committed in a certain way. This is wrong and prejudiced IMO.

Terror spreads fear, no? Aren't people terrified to know that perhaps their ethnic background or their beliefs can be a cause for their death?

You see, terrorist acts are more widely connected with this region based on law/order. We don't see terrorists blowing themselves up in KSA which is the most Islamic of Islamic States (being sacrastic ). You can't say the same about Afghanistan and Pakistan. Why? Because of the access to more dangerous weapons and even bombastic-material.

You don't have this issue in Europe and N.America because things are tightly controlled there. But despite the better standard of education, health and vastly better economy, hate-filled thinking is still prevalent there. Why ?? Can anyone guarantee that citizens of those non-Muslim countries will not resort to similar acts if they had access to these things?

 

[Dillinger]

The first sentence is exactly what I was trying to point out. The definition has been limited to certain activities committed in a certain way. This is wrong and prejudiced IMO.

Terror spreads fear, no? Aren't people terrified to know that perhaps their ethnic background or their beliefs can be a cause for their death?

You see, terrorist acts are more widely connected with this region based on law/order. We don't see terrorists blowing themselves up in KSA which is the most Islamic of Islamic States (being sacrastic ). You can't say the same about Afghanistan and Pakistan. Why? Because of the access to more dangerous weapons and even bombastic-material.

You don't have this issue in Europe and N.America because things are tightly controlled there. But despite the better standard of education, health and vastly better economy, hate-filled thinking is still prevalent there. Why ?? Can anyone guarantee that citizens of those non-Muslim countries will not resort to similar acts if they had access to these things?

You're referring to terrorism in a more localized manner. The nations are more worried about global terrorism. I apologize for using this much cliched example- there are no other organisations like Al-Qaeda. A network spread across a significant number of Islamic countries, inner lines of com- sleeper cells within the Muslim communities of non-Islamic countries, outer lines of com and grunts, support and funding from many of the fundamentalist common populace in these regions- support from few elements within their governments (the last bit not being applicable to all) and the temerity to lob two planes into buildings in the beating heart of America itself.

It is more about scale, no other org (now that the LTTE has met its end) can match such operational capacity. That is why terrorism is primarily confined to the definition which you find disconcerting.

It is amplified when characters such as Anjem Chaudary rise up and blatantly spread extremist fundamentalism and there are perhaps only small scale oppositions from within the Muslim community itself against people like him. It builds an image, don't you think it should be the same community which must take the first step to break it?

 

[MST]

planned terrorism vs a spontaneous one

The problem is if you start calling any spontaneous (unplanned) act terrorism then you will totally end up diluting the meaning of terrorism. Any murder would then qualify as terrorism.

E.g. there are planned murders (one spouse killing other e.g.). But its not terrorism

And then there are ideologically driven killings. E.g. Naxals in India fall in that category. But they are not called Terrorists. Because even though they are driven by Ideology then don't do planned killing of innocent civilians. Their fight is with the State. But civilians do get in cross fire. E.g. Naxals killed 148 people in the train Accident. They were actually trying to derail a cargo train and accidently ended up derailing a passenger train. After the incident they are said to have guaranteed safety of passenger trains passing through that area. Will a TTP do that?

 

[Pakistanisage]

Lal masjid jamia hafsa? any interest?

Really ? Lal Masjid people were going around blowing up Pakistanis. You must be living on a different Planet than I, in some kind of Parallel Universe. They did not attack our Civilians. Our forces attacked them. Our terrorist that are blowing up Civilians and who have killed over 50,000 of our civilians are hard core TTP Criminals, not madarassa Students.

I donot know about Pakistan, but I can give a very relatable incident from India.

There have been a few cases for Muslims in UP(one of the poorest and most socially backward state of India) where muslims who were working as labourer's and daily wagers have sent their kids to Madrassa's instead of school.

Bear in mind that there are lots of schools in India, and the government run schools charge almost nothing and instead offer free lunch to the children attending as an incentive for the poor parents.

When asked/interviewed as to why these labourer's sent their kids to a madrassa and not to a school their reply was:
" I want these kids to become good muslims first "

Now, this is a case for a few Muslims in India when India has spent millions and millions of dollars on setting up schools almost everywhere and free lunch, etc

But this small percentage in India would be 100 times more in Pakistan where economic growth is very less and religious association is multi-fold more and school infrastructure is less.

My friend, our terrorist are TTP and BLA , both groups have never set foot in a Madrassa.

But they are financed and equipped by INDIAN RAW.

This is who our terrorist are.

 

[Developereo]

They are definitely not unique, but you will have to agree that terrorism is far more prevalent among those who claim to follow Islam. Islamic terrorism has also affected a far larger no. of nations than any other, no? Extremists and bigots abound in all societies and religions- we have our own in India, once or twice they've even taken the form of an actual armed organisation rather than some cultural or religious seminary and yet none of them are off striking targets in Europe or America- not even in Pakistan.

Perhaps this relative distinction is what @MST was getting at.

There are two issues: extremism and terrorism.

Extremist ideas flourish in all countries; the Western media is a far bigger purveyor of hate than all the Muslim clerics combined. Since it is dominant, the Western media defines the terminology: Muslim clerics talking against others is "hate speech"; anyone talking against Islam is "free speech".

As far as terrorism goes, the term is defined by the West for its own convenience. When a poor guy blows himself up in a suicide attack and kills 20 people, it is terrorism. When an established army guns down a wedding party, or drops bombs from far away and kills hundreds of civilians, it is collateral damage. The excuse that the civilians were not deliberately targeted is nonsense. In any military operation, the likely level of collateral damage is assessed and OK'ed beforehand. Civilians casualties are carefully tailored to make sure the other side understands who's boss.

 

[Zarvan]

Really ? Lal Masjid people were going around blowing up Pakistanis. You must be living on a different Planet than I, in some kind of Parallel Universe. They did not attack our Civilians. Our forces attacked them. Our terrorist that are blowing up Civilians and who have killed over 50,000 of our civilians are hard core TTP Criminals, not madarassa Students.










My friend, our terrorist are TTP and BLA , both groups have never set foot in a Madrassa.

But they are financed and equipped by INDIAN RAW.

This is who our terrorist are.

And adding to this part of @Pakistanisage Lal Masjid guys even started solving matters of property among families and funny thing is they were in reality able to solve issues and the places they raided people brought those complains because they had tried everything Police government but no one closed down those centers of prostitution so people came to them and they solved those issues and in Chinese Massage parlor that was also a prostitution den and how they confirmed it that is also funny 3 Students of Beacon Hosue offered Lal Masjid guys their service and they went as customers in that parlors and when they in word offered them money they showed them the way and they gave them a call I mean to Lal Masjid guys they were waiting outside and than they raided that place

Really ? Lal Masjid people were going around blowing up Pakistanis. You must be living on a different Planet than I, in some kind of Parallel Universe. They did not attack our Civilians. Our forces attacked them. Our terrorist that are blowing up Civilians and who have killed over 50,000 of our civilians are hard core TTP Criminals, not madarassa Students.










My friend, our terrorist are TTP and BLA , both groups have never set foot in a Madrassa.

But they are financed and equipped by INDIAN RAW.

This is who our terrorist are.

Hakeemullah used to be a Taxi Driver these guys don't even know what is taught in Madrassahs or what their courses are