Wat will replace the A-5's??

[blain2]

what are the options available?
is there a chinese targeting pod? the french ATLIS or something newer?

It has to be better than ATLIS. ATLIS is pretty much a 2nd generation system only capable of day/fair-weather imaging. I think something along the lines of Pantera/Sniper-XR is the way to go (essentially a next generation FLIR capable of ISR and targeting all in one). I am pretty sure that Chinese do have something on offer and PAF is interesting in getting this capability on board the aircraft. I do recall the previous CPD JF-17 Shahid Latif stating that targeting pod is definitely in the plans.

 

[ejaz007]

We should NOT spend more money to get aircrafts like the J-11 (even if somehow we could resolve all the Russian issues). Are you people now seeing the economic situation of the country? I understand the need for defence just as much as everyone else here, but spending so much money to purchase aircrafts that we don't even really need is just ridiculous. We are not the United States or India, we cannot solve every problem by throwing money at it. Our engineers are ingenuitive (evidence: Mirage upgrades), they'll figure out a way to replace the A-5s.

Our economic situation has never been ideal. The present situation is a lot better than a decade a go situation and therefore shall not be an issue for defense purchases.

I am personally of the view that we should at the moment concentrate on JF-17. After it has been inducted and plan finalized on how many we require and funding secured we should thing about FC-20. When we have started receiving FC-20 then we should thing of a new fighter that shall eventually replace remaining mirages and F-7's.

I am not taking into consideration F-16 because past experience tells us that until F-16's land in Pakistan they should not be considered as ours.

This would give us about two years time and during this time hopefully we would have better relation with Russians and transfer of Russian or Chinese jet with Russian technology shall not be as a big issue as it is today.

 

[PAFAce]

PAFAce; SIR
Our engineers will be going to be replaced by A-5s, in the air?
do you mean that? Our engineers = A-5s?

when did we had the best economic situation in last 60 years?
so just because of bad economy , we should surrender, our selves to india or usa?

Where did you get this idea? My post does not say that at all. Engineers = A5? Surrender to India and US? What are you talking about man?

It is immoral and unethical of us to be thinking only of buying newer jets when poverty is at its lowest and nobody in a leadership position wants to take any responsibility for the country. And just because the economy's always been bad does not become the reason to not fix it.

 

[PAFAce]

The present situation is a lot better than a decade a go situation

Are we speaking of the same country?

 

[batmannow]

Are we speaking of the same country?

PAFAce; sir
frist of all, in the line of defence, economy is nothing, if you remember very famous words of mr, bhutoo " WE WILL BE EATING GRASS , BUT WE ARE GOING TO MAKE ATOM BOMB", this theory applies here too.

this theard is about replacing A-5's, not about giving up A-5's?
our economic situation , will never going to match INDIA, USA, OR CHINA, but we cant give up on our defence, we would be pushing like in the past , bit by bit , inch by inch but , we will remain in the race.
plz check out poverty rate in india, even its economic boom, they have much more poors living in india, thn of us.
thanks

 

[mean_bird]

mean_bird; sir
what do you know about J-11b , dear?
people did disscuss JF-17, but its also more funny how people keep mentioning JF-17, for everything!

true that.

But my point was it could/could not be a ground attack version of JF-17 but atleast its a possibility. But the J-11 is not even a possibility so why gossip about it.

And whats about J-11b that I do not know...perhaps you can increase my knowledge about it?

There were rumors followed by displeasure shown by Russia over potential sale of J11...which suggests that possibly there were some talks about selling it to some country (maybe Pakistan but easily be another country). But Russia jumped in, and later they issued a statement saying it was just a misunderstanding and China is not exporting it. And the fact that its still an Su-27 albeit with increasing chinese parts.

Surely the issue of allowing re-export of RD-93 engines is one thing, but capturing Russia's export market with a cheaper, better version of a plane is quite another.

 

[batmannow]

true that.

But my point was it could/could not be a ground attack version of JF-17 but atleast its a possibility. But the J-11 is not even a possibility so why gossip about it.

And whats about J-11b that I do not know...perhaps you can increase my knowledge about it?

There were rumors followed by displeasure shown by Russia over potential sale of J11...which suggests that possibly there were some talks about selling it to some country (maybe Pakistan but easily be another country). But Russia jumped in, and later they issued a statement saying it was just a misunderstanding and China is not exporting it. And the fact that its still an Su-27 albeit with increasing chinese parts.

Surely the issue of allowing re-export of RD-93 engines is one thing, but capturing Russia's export market with a cheaper, better version of a plane is quite another.

lets see what happens, next but i guss putting jf-17s in every role is not going to work, well about J-11bs are far more different thn of its , Su-27 family , yes its true that it is bassed on SU-27 's but it goes same for su-30's.
i guss , pakistan needs 3 to 4 squadrns of a deep strike capability fighter/bomber jet, not bassed on westrn tech or plateform , a deep strike capability plateform, which can be mentain & easily gettable when ever they were required , also with crunnt economic & militry situation , surly will give no problums russia.
here is some details for you, my dear friend!

J-11B Programme

In mid-2002, SAC unveiled its intention to build an upgraded multirole version of the J-11 by revealing a mock-up aircraft carrying various types of air-to-air and air-to-surface missiles. Russian sources also confirmed that SAC was pursuing a multirole variant of the J-11 designated J-11B with much greater Chinese-made content. At least three examples (#523, #524, and #525) of the J-11B have been delivered to the China Flight Test Establishment (CFTE) for flight test and evaluation since 2006. The aircraft was based on the Su-27SK/J-11 airframe, but with the following modifications:
An indigenous multifunctional pulse-Doppler fire-control radar reportedly capable of tracking 6~8 targets and engaging 4 of them simultaneously;
An indigenous digital flight-control system;

A Chinese copy of the Russian OEPS-27 electro-optic search and tracking system;
A strapdown INS/GPS navigation system;
A ‘glass’ cockpit featuring four colour multifunctional displays (MFD) and a wide-angle holographic head-up display (HUD);
The aircraft could carry the Chinese-made PL-8 IR-homing SRAAM and PL-12 active radar-homing MRAAM for air-to-air combat. While the PLAAF currently has the capability for two-target engagement using the Su-27/-30 and R-77 (AA-12 Adder) combination, successful integration of the PL-12 on the J-11B would likely provide a genuine multi-target engagement capability. The J-11B is also expected to have enhanced air-to-surface attack capabilities with the indigenous precision strike ammunitions such as LT-2 laser-guided bomb, the LS-6 precision-guided glide bomb, the YJ-91 (Kh-31P) anti-radiation missile, and the KD-88 air-to-surface missile.


J-11BS

There has been speculation that Shenyang is currently developing a two-seater version of the J-11B, possibly designated J-11BS. The aircraft was said to be similar to the Su-27UBK fighter-trainer, but fitted with Chinese-made powerplant, avionics, and weapon suite.

Details have emerged of China’s next generation J-11B fighter
This article published in Jane’s Defense Weekly

Details have emerged of China’s next generation J-11B heavy air superiority fighter aircraft, a further development of Sukhoi’s Su-27SK (Chinese designation J-11) that ended production in 2004 ahead of its planned run.

Shenyang Aviation Corporation (SAC) assembled 95 J-11 fighters from imported Russian components, although the original project had called for 200 aircraft, and it is likely production was stopped in anticipation of the improved J-11B.

Although based on the Su-27SK, the latest incarnation has substantial improvements including a reduced radar cross-section (RCS), strengthened airframe and an improved fire control radar as well as new flight control system, glass cockpit and engine.

The improvements are planned to nake the aircraft to a fourth generation platform; the Yanliang Flight Test Center currently has three J-11B under testing (No 521, No 523 and No 524).

The most significant change for the aircraft is improved stealth; the changes are planned to bring the RCS from the 15 sqm of the Su-27 to under 5 sqm and possible as low as 3 sqm.

The change is not to the dynamic shape of the aircraft but involves the modification of the air intake lip with a radar wave shield and the installation of radar absorbing materials on the intake interior. In addition the RCS will be reduced with Chinese made signature reduction paint.

The strengthening of the airframe, a key aspect since the life expectancy of the aircraft has been criticised by the People’s Liberation Army Air Force, has been achieved through wind-tunnel tests of weapons carriage.

Additionally, the empty weight of the aircraft has been reduced by about 700 kg through the use of composite materials.

It is believed a further 10,000 hours has been added to the life of the aircraft compared with the Su-27SK.

The radar installed on the J-11B is believed to be more powerful than the Type 1473 installed on the J-10; it is estimated to be able to track 20 targets and simultaneously lock onto six targets.

J-11B will incorporate a quadruply-redundant digital fly-by-wire flight control system with mechanical back-up. Additionally, the aircraft has a fully glass cockpit but there are two variants - a reflecting head-up display (HUD) with four multi-function displays (MFDs) and a holographic HUD with three MFDs.

It is likely the former cockpit is for ground attack and the latter for air combat. The new cockpits integrate fire control radar, electro-optic countermeasure pods and infra-red search and track.

The improved radar and cockpit have allowed for the integration of newer weapons such as the CATIC PL-12 active radar-guided air-to-air missile.

The J-11 AL-31F engine will be replaced with the WS10A turbofan, providing longer lifespan and reduced fuel consumption.

 

[mean_bird]

@batmannow

thank you for your post but I am afraid I do not see the relevance. You are providing me some technical data of the J-11b which is widely known. Where in my post did I doubt J-11's capability?

As I said, its the availability of J-11bs thats the question and not what it can do or what it can't. Whatever the changes chinese have done or are planning to do, the fact remains that it is still a copy of the Russian Su-27 and Russia can deny it if it wants to. The addition of composites, newer avionics, better radar, indigenous engine, new technology borrowed from other developments are all great but it is and will remain a variant of the Su-27. Any " chinese plane" would have to have a different airframe and would also carry a different label.

Russia made $8 billion in defence sales last year, and the lions share came from sale of Su-30s...based on the Su-27 design.... to india, algeria, etc and its still agressively marketing the plane. Allowing China to market a better, cheaper variant is akin to shooting ones own defense industry.

I am afraid no sale to pakistan or any other country will happen without Russian approval and their share in the project.

 

[Zob]

well honestly i don't know why the whole discussion about the J11B and all...but the point i want to raise is that well JF-17 is faster a more able aircraft than the A5 so yes for the time being it is a good option....but i gues people got me wrong when i said we don't need a dedicated bomber....i am not saying PAF or any other arm of our armed forces is defensive but countriews that usually are big and involved in invading other countries have bombers tell me one third world country whose basic aim is exsistence and has no agressive intentions having a bomber....so please name me a country....and secondy i think as long as JF-17 can carry the desired payload for a strike and is an all weather aircraft we are alright...

 

[hj786]

what are the options available?
is there a chinese targeting pod? the french ATLIS or something newer?

It has to be better than ATLIS. ATLIS is pretty much a 2nd generation system only capable of day/fair-weather imaging. I think something along the lines of Pantera/Sniper-XR is the way to go (essentially a next generation FLIR capable of ISR and targeting all in one). I am pretty sure that Chinese do have something on offer and PAF is interesting in getting this capability on board the aircraft. I do recall the previous CPD JF-17 Shahid Latif stating that targeting pod is definitely in the plans.

Some information on Chinese FLIR/targeting pods:

The Blue Sky navigational (FLIR) pod:
Blue Sky navigation pod - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
LT-2 Laser Guided Bomb | SinoDefence.com (3rd paragraph)
Air Weapons: Chinese Laser Guided Bombs

The FILAT (Forward-Looking Infra-red Laser Attack Targeting) pod:
FILAT - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

FILAT and Blue Sky are also mentioned on J-8 and J-10 wikipedia articles. Blue Sky was mentioned in JF-17 article too, somebody later added FILAT pod as well.

The Russian Sapsan pod:
UOMZ Sapsan/Sapsan-E targeting pod (Russian Federation) - Jane's Electro-Optic Systems
"In 2006, UOMZ confirmed that it had assisted Chinese firms in the development of laser designators analogous to Sapsan."]

That is pretty much all I can find on Chinese targeting/FLIR pods. If the Chinese members here could give more links and info I would be grateful

 

[Arsalan]

for A5 it will be the JF17,

infact it is said that he first batch and the initila Squadrons will be inducted to replace the A5 fleet, the the number of F& will come and then with the more advanced ones we will be replacing the Mirage and the F7z!!

 

[Arsalan]

the the role of A5 will be easily adopted by the JF17, it is much more advanced and by the increase of hardpoints it will turn out to be the best solution possible for replacing the A5 for PAF!!

for the J1, there is no chance in the near future, we are going for the J10 but it will be the front lin air superiority AC for the PAF that will have to tackle the MRCA deal planes and the leathal Su30

 

[Quwa]

It has to be better than ATLIS. ATLIS is pretty much a 2nd generation system only capable of day/fair-weather imaging. I think something along the lines of Pantera/Sniper-XR is the way to go (essentially a next generation FLIR capable of ISR and targeting all in one). I am pretty sure that Chinese do have something on offer and PAF is interesting in getting this capability on board the aircraft. I do recall the previous CPD JF-17 Shahid Latif stating that targeting pod is definitely in the plans.

Thales will probably offer the Damocles targeting pod...

Thales Damocles multifunction targeting pod (France) - Jane's Electro-Optic Systems

At IDEAS 2008 Sagem offered the Gerfaut HMD/S and AASM missile. ADJ was covering IDEAS 2008, and it reported that PAF got multiple AESA offers for JF-17. I think Thales may have offered a suitable light-fighter AESA radar, but obviously such a system has not been initiated, at least officially. According to the same source, next-generation AAMs such as MBDA Meteor are also being considered...though personally I think PAF will invest in less costly alternatives such as the South African T-Darter for use on JF-17.

It is interesting to note that the French can offer a comprehensive set for JF-17, even the engine - one of M53 and M88. Makes you wonder why neither PAF nor the French tried to somehow tie Rafale into the mix. With all that potential commonality, you'd think that Dassault would aggressively push Rafale, or PAF would try to grab it at a more reasonable rate.

 

[Muradk]

From what I know J-10 will take A-5s place but A-5 will not retire instead they will be inducted as another SQD. Till we have ample amout of JF-17s. Just like Mirages JF-17s will be used over the sea. A few tidbits here and there and they are ready for Sea patrol. A-5 has a good record uptill now so instead of getting rid of them they can be used till we can.

 

[Arsalan]

but sir wont it be very costly to operate these very old machines!!

i think the F7z the entire Mirage fleet and the A5 need to be replaced, i know it wont happen beforw 2015 as it will be only then that we will be having JF17 in good number and specs!!
but they must start replacing the old ones from the start gradually!!!

what do you suggest!!