Vietnam builds military muscle to face China

[Aepsilons]

For Thailand and Philippines, I don’t consider them to have truly assimilated. A few really do, but I think most take on a new identity (e.g. Tsinoy) and identify them as being superior to the locals, so I would not consider that as being assimilated to the local society.

In the Philippines, there are two groups of Chinese groups, i suppose. The pure blooded Inchik (Chinese) who marry only Chinese and presere their family names and their religion. They maintain this through the generations even go as far as going back to Fujian or Canton (Guangdong) to bring back a wife back. The other group are the mixed Chinese-Filipino (Malay-Chinese mix), who tho are not pure blooded anymore, still hold some kind of allegiance to their Chinese lineage. It is almost a sense of pride for these Chinese mestizos to have Chinese 'blood'. Its actually very interesting to see this when i was there.

During the 60-70s, a lot of pro-mainland Chinese diaspora in VN became spies for the CCP. Also, you trying to tell me Pol Pot and his crony was apolitical? The communist Chinese diaspora in Indonesia before the purge was apolitical? You must be joking.

But being political or apolitical was not the point. When I said pro-mainland, I mean Chinese who still show affinity towards mainland China and have no loyalty or allegience towards their host country. The point was that these pro-mainland Chinese diaspora have given a very bad image of “China” to the locals, by being extremely greedy, selfish, ungrateful, etc.

I think that is just part of the innate nature of Chinese people, my friend. The sense of Han superiority and Han preservation. Even in Japan; there are Han Chinese who live in Japan , even have Japanese citizenship, and have even adopted Japanese names, still, they will clarify that they are Han Chinese by Race.

 

[applesauce]

I do not disagree with you that China has the numerical superiority. However, in event of a full blown war; especially one in one's own backdoor? The body bags coming back to the country will have an impact in public perception and support of the war. That was the very reason why public perception plummeted during the Vietnam War when images of body bags were distributed by American media / journalists.

of course, im not not saying such things are to be taken lightly or even that china could achieve its objectives, i am merely rejecting your casualty numbers

Iraq is not Vietnam and America is not China. It is unwise to compare Viet Nam to Iraq in that Viet Nam, unlike Iraq, was able to resist four super powers (Japan, France, America, China) in a span of 30 years back to back. The Viets are no push overs, and are ferocious opponents.

Don't underestimate these people.

indeed, i am not saying china could fully subdue vietnam or even fully occupy the country, again, i am rejecting your claim of up to 2 millions casualties, the US has less that 60k when it was also fighting the soviets and china in vietnam and had major handicaps, such as not targeting airbases with known soviet advisors in them, or the supply line from china itself. while any china-vietnam war would see the chinese have pretty much free reign.

and yes i also have already said, china is not as strong as the US and indeed vietnam is not iraq, but again, the PLA being 33 times worst?(by number of casualties), or conversely that vietnam is 33 times stronger than iraq? i find that extremely hard to believe

 

[Rechoice]

especially considering vietnam had active support(as in actual pilots and men fighting) of a superpower and a major regional power durng the vietnam war

Don't lie.

There were no Russian nor China pilot or man joined to fighting. There was only logistic troopp from China to build the roads from China to Langson, Thainguyen, Yenbai provinces nearby border China-Vietnam border. But China stopped help in 1968 to normalisation diplomacy with US, no more.

Soviet weapon and Soviet techinsican who trained us is key item for our victory in Vietnam war.

 

[applesauce]

During the 60-70s, a lot of pro-mainland Chinese diaspora in VN became spies for the CCP. Also, you trying to tell me Pol Pot and his crony was apolitical? The communist Chinese diaspora in Indonesia before the purge was apolitical? You must be joking.

But being political or apolitical was not the point. When I said pro-mainland, I mean Chinese who still show affinity towards mainland China and have no loyalty or allegience towards their host country. The point was that these pro-mainland Chinese diaspora have given a very bad image of “China” to the locals, by being extremely greedy, selfish, ungrateful, etc.

imma need a source on that.

its not unusual to have PRC spies with chinese communities, nothing really strange about it. but what exactly is "a lot"? 1%? 10%? 50? 90?

 

[Aepsilons]

indeed, i am not saying china could fully subdue vietnam or even fully occupy the country, again, i am rejecting your claim of up to 2 millions casualties, the US has less that 60k when it was also fighting the soviets and china in vietnam and had major handicaps, such as not targeting airbases with known soviet advisors in them, or the supply line from china itself. while any china-vietnam war would see the chinese have pretty much free reign.

and yes i also have already said, china is not as strong as the US and indeed vietnam is not iraq, but again, the PLA being 33 times worst?(by number of casualties), or conversely that vietnam is 33 times stronger than iraq? i find to extremely hard to believe

My friend, let me expand. Vietnam's population is nearing 100 million; Guangxi and Guangdong have a population of about 200 million. So the conflict would be affecting northern Vietnam and Guangxi/Guangdong region, perhaps even Hainan, but not so much. The humanitarian effects of the war , spill over fighting, starvation, death by diseases and collateral damage --- would definitely hit 2 million. even more. The northern vietnam/ guangxi-guangdong region is extremely heavily populated.

This would be a humanitarian disaster not just for China and Vietnam, but for the entire ASEAN region, matter of fact.

 

[William Hung]

In the Philippines, there are two groups of Chinese groups, i suppose. The pure blooded Inchik (Chinese) who marry only Chinese and presere their family names and their religion. They maintain this through the generations even go as far as going back to Fujian or Canton (Guangdong) to bring back a wife back. The other group are the mixed Chinese-Filipino (Malay-Chinese mix), who tho are not pure blooded anymore, still hold some kind of allegiance to their Chinese lineage. It is almost a sense of pride for these Chinese mestizos to have Chinese 'blood'. Its actually very interesting to see this when i was there.

Hmmm, most likely the case. I’m not 100% sure myself. Maybe some Filipino members can enlighten us.

I think that is just part of the innate nature of Chinese people, my friend. The sense of Han superiority and Han preservation. Even in Japan; there are Han Chinese who live in Japan , even have Japanese citizenship, and have even adopted Japanese names, still, they will clarify that they are Han Chinese by Race.

Preserving ones’ culture and heritage is itself not that bad. Even a sense of superiority is quite normal is most ethnic group. The bad image that locals don’t like was greed, selfishness over mutual benefits, ungratefulness, unloyal, untrustworthiness. I guess Chinese diaspora has different reputations in every country. In Vietnam, the pro-mainland Chinese diaspora gave these kind of image. And the truth is, before the age of the internet, most locals don’t have much contact with the actual Chinese from the mainland, how they perceived China and the general “Chinese” people was directly influenced by how they percieved these pro-mainland Chinese diaspora. And it wasn’t a great perception.

 

[applesauce]

Don't lie.

There were no Russian nor China pilot or man joined to fighting. There was only logistic troopp from China to build the roads from China to Langson, Thainguyen, Yenbai provinces nearby border China-Vietnam border. But China stopped help in 1968 to normalisation diplomacy with US, no more.

Soviet weapon and Soviet techinsican who trained us is key item for our victory in Vietnam war.

yea, why dont you listen to your own words.

soviets soldiers and pilots in vietnam:

USSR ‘secret' Vietnam soldiers speak out — RT News

chinese, mainly engineers but also missile operators:

Dirty Little Secrets of the Vietnam War: Military Information You're Not ... - James F. Dunnigan, Albert A. Nofi - Google Books


and again, as your acknowledged yourself, the point is during the vietnam war a superpower was directly involved in countering another, more than just providing intelligence or political support, they provided materials, arms, and yes even men in significant quantities.

 

[Aepsilons]

Preserving ones’ culture and heritage is itself not that bad. Even a sense of superiority is quite normal is most ethnic group. The bad image that locals don’t like was greed, selfishness over mutual benefits, ungratefulness, unloyal, untrustworthiness. I guess Chinese diaspora has different reputations in every country. In Vietnam, the pro-mainland Chinese diaspora gave these kind of image. And the truth is, before the age of the internet, most locals don’t have much contact with the actual Chinese from the mainland, how they perceived China and the general “Chinese” people was directly influenced by how they percieved these pro-mainland Chinese diaspora. And it wasn’t a great perception.

Very interesting. I didnt really think there was a contention in Vietnamese community with Chinese people.

 

[applesauce]

My friend, let me expand. Vietnam's population is nearing 100 million; Guangxi and Guangdong have a population of about 200 million. So the conflict would be affecting northern Vietnam and Guangxi/Guangdong region, perhaps even Hainan, but not so much. The humanitarian effects of the war , spill over fighting, starvation, death by diseases and collateral damage --- would definitely hit 2 million. even more. The northern vietnam/ guangxi-guangdong region is extremely heavily populated.

This would be a humanitarian disaster not just for China and Vietnam, but for the entire ASEAN region, matter of fact.

you quoted 2 millions casualties for only the chinese not in total for all sides which is more believable. southern china would be effected for sure, but millions of deaths? i again doubt your numbers i suspect under 10,000 is more like it, vietnam simply does not have the capability to inflict such damage within china, their navy would be finished in days and air force soon after. itll be a ground war and their army has limited range.

 

[Aepsilons]

Let's hope the extent of our speculations remain solely hypothetical and in the realm of internet threads. And never on the ground.

Regards.

 

[William Hung]

Very interesting. I didnt really think there was a contention in Vietnamese community with Chinese people.

Not that much today, since VN nationalised most business and industries after 1975...so the current Chinese diapora in VN is not doing any better than the locals like it is the case in Thailand. But the old perceptions (or stereotype) of them still remains.

 

[Genesis]

Iraq is not Vietnam and America is not China. It is unwise to compare Viet Nam to Iraq in that Viet Nam, unlike Iraq, was able to resist four super powers (Japan, France, America, China) in a span of 30 years back to back. The Viets are no push overs, and are ferocious opponents.

Don't underestimate these people.

Vietnam was able to resist the super power US, yes, but that was because the Americans don't know how to win a real political battle. China has no desire to take Vietnam, and even less in a regime change. If wiping out a Communist government by another doesn't sound insane to you, I don't know what does.

Any China-Vietnam war, will be a war on the seas, and maybe minor skirmish on the border. China has no stomach for heavy losses while Vietnamese leadership still want to preserve their power, and can't afford to put China into a position where we have no choice but to advance. They can lose and spin the whole conflict later, it's an easy sell.


I'll say what Li HongZhang said to Weng TongHe, even if China is justified in a Japanese Qing war, without new ships and ammunition, they don't mean crap. Artillery rounds destroy ships, not a person's will to win.

Today's Vietnam cannot convince its people to fight to the last man anymore, while China cannot hope to remain internationally relevant if China were to inflict too much damage onto Vietnamese people.

So all in all, Vietnam cannot hope to win, because the situation calls for a short war, in those kind of battles, technology plays a far bigger role than anything else. It is only the occupying stages do resilience actually matter, but looking at today's world, it's unlikely to ever reach there.

 

[sharma1111]

China communist party is full of war mongers and bullies. They are becoming threat to East asia and Indian ocean region

If they keep provoking and occupying south china sea then time is not far once all countries will unite against them.

China should remember that with great power comes great responsibility. Learn to listen to your small neighbors & stop bullying smaller countries in region

 

[terranMarine]

Viets ferocious? Our nippon friend here must think the PLA are not capable dealing with them. Boy talking about underestimating the PLA's capabilities , are Japanese forces also very ferocious that it scares the sh!t out of us? In a full blown war our Airforce,Navy and Army totally outclass that midget. Don't even try to convince us that China will suffer equal casualties as those weaklings.

 

[Genesis]

indeed, i am not saying china could fully subdue vietnam or even fully occupy the country, again, i am rejecting your claim of up to 2 millions casualties, the US has less that 60k when it was also fighting the soviets and china in vietnam and had major handicaps, such as not targeting airbases with known soviet advisors in them, or the supply line from china itself. while any china-vietnam war would see the chinese have pretty much free reign.

and yes i also have already said, china is not as strong as the US and indeed vietnam is not iraq, but again, the PLA being 33 times worst?(by number of casualties), or conversely that vietnam is 33 times stronger than iraq? i find that extremely hard to believe

Actually China can take Vietnam, quite easily.

Different phases of a war requires different things. China cannot occupy part of mainland Vietnam and to think we could is suicidal.

The two Iraq conflicts both proved what a modern army could do to a less advanced military.
The second Iraq war could be said to be more successful, but they had a different objective, occupation and the removal of Saddam.

It turned the war political. Pure military conflicts would only need to account for military power. With that said, China has the decisive advantage in both numbers and tech, as well as training and organization, what other way can this possibly turn out.