Utility of JH7 for PAF

[iby32]

Tornados are twin engines... v high speed....low altitude flying machines and above all, tested/ proven in deep strike missions.

Against who they are tested. Iraq Syria afghanistan

 

[HAIDER]

Against who they are tested. Iraq Syria afghanistan

The Royal Air Force has marked the end of an era and formally retired the very last of its swing-wing Panavia Tornado combat jets. For almost 40 years, the aircraft formed an essential part of British air combat capabilities, but are now giving way to the next generation of aircraft, including the stealthy F-35 Joint Strike Fighter.

The last two RAF Tornado squadrons, No. IX(B) and 31 Squadron, stood down in a ceremony at RAF Marham on March 14, 2019. The event included a parade by members of both units and a fly-by from a single Tornado GR4, which concluded the last official flight by the type in British service.

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Photos and video from the event show the jet roaring past at low altitude and at high speed with its swing-wings swept back, a fitting final send off for an aircraft that was originally meant to fly fast and low strike missions against Soviet targets in Europe. Afterward, the jet taxied to a hangar at Marham where Air Chief Marshal Sir Stephen Hillier, the RAF’s top officer, greeted the two pilots, Squadron Leader Ian Dornan, and Squadron Leader Stephen Beardmore.

Last but one.... pic.twitter.com/H4pAVGbe6U

— Greg Bagwell (@gregbagwell) March 14, 2019
And the final one pic.twitter.com/BUTjq2YgBc

— Greg Bagwell (@gregbagwell) March 14, 2019
Final Tornado out from RAF Marham. Never to be seen again...

Royal Air Force
Tornado ZA463 MRM 74#FarewellTornado #Tornado #FINale #ZA463 @RAFMarhamMedia pic.twitter.com/RM2mGbWHss

— CivMilAir ✈ (@CivMilAir) March 14, 2019
The last ever RAF Tornado engine shut down today @RAFMarhamMedia - a brilliant parade and final flypast. Many congratulations to all those, past and present, for providing such a phenomenal AirPower capability for almost 4 decades. #NoOrdinaryJob pic.twitter.com/pS12XrKuac

— Air Vice-Marshal Harv Smyth (@AOC_1_Group) March 14, 2019
The Secretary is State closing an amazing evening at RAF Marham. #TornadoFarewell pic.twitter.com/2aP748IEP2

— Group Captain Jim Beck (@StnCdrRAFMarham) March 15, 2019
“Today is a time to rightly recognize the truly exceptional achievements of the people who have been the Tornado Force. We reflect on the courage, skill, commitment and sadly sometimes sacrifice of those who have been at the heart of the Tornado story, from its inception through to the present day,” Air Chief Marshal Hillier said at the ceremony. “All have played their part to the full in the success story that is Tornado.”

The Tornado has been a constant presence in British skies and major factor in U.K. military operations since the RAF received its first examples in 1979. It earned the nickname "Tonka" after the popular line of toy trucks and other vehicles that were "built Tonka tough." But despite this moniker, the design was born out of years of stutter-started multi-national efforts to develop a new multi-role combat jet.

The United Kingdom’s own requirement traced back to the near legendary cancellation of the British Air Corporation’s (BAC) TSR-2 supersonic strike and reconnaissance aircraft in 1964. Four years later, the U.K. Ministry of Defense cancelled a subsequent order for American-made General Dynamics F-111K swing-wing combat jets.

In parallel, the British had entered into a partnership with the French to develop the Anglo-French Variable Geometry (AFVG) combat aircraft. After France withdrew from the effort, this project subsequently evolved first into the Multi Role Aircraft (MRA) and then became the Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MRCA).

At one time, Belgium, Canada, Italy, The Netherlands, and West Germany were all also involved. The Belgians and Canadians dropped out before the program made any significant progress.

In 1969, the British, Dutch, Italians, and West Germans agreed to form a multi-national conglomerate, with its main headquarters in West Germany, to continue development of the aircraft. The next year, The Netherlands pulled out of the program.

This left BAC in the United Kingdom, the West German firm Messerschmitt-Bölkow-Blohm, and Italy’s Aeritalia to handle various portions of the development and production of the aircraft, which eventually became known as the Tornado.

The result of the program was a twin-engine, two-seat, swing-wing combat aircraft. Panavia built Tornadoes in three main variants, Interdictor/Strike (IDS), Electronic Combat/Reconnaissance (ECR), and Air Defense Variant (ADV). The RAF only operated the IDS and ADV types, referring to them as Tornado GR-series and Tornado F-series aircraft, respectively.

DOD
A camouflaged Tornado GR1 flies in front of the Tornado F2 prototype at the Farnborough Air Show in 1982.

All three types used variants of the Turbo-Union RB199 turbofan engine. The first examples of the IDS featured versions that were of lower performance compared to subsequent models, all of which had generally similar thrust ratings. These engines gave the Tornado a dash speed of more than Mach 2 at high altitude, which was especially important for ADV variants operating in the interceptor role.

The major difference between the IDS and ADV variants was the latter’s GEC-Marconi/Ferranti AI.24 Foxhunter radar, which necessitated a completely different nose shape. With Foxhunter, these planes could detect opponents at beyond visual ranges in any weather.

Ad Meskens via Wikimedia
A Tornado F3 on display with a Foxhunter radar in front.

The ADV types also only had a single 27mm Mauser BK-27 automatic cannon mounted in the lower right side of the forward fuselage, whereas the IDS had two of these guns, one on each side. The two aircraft had different under fuselage hard point configurations for various types of ordnance, as well.

Both the IDS and the ADV had a maximum total payload rating of almost 20,000 pounds and provisions for up to four under-wing hardpoints. These stations all swiveled as the wings moved, keeping the stores properly aligned with the direction of travel at all times.

In June 1982, No. IX(B) Squadron became the first ever operational Tornado unit flying first generation IDS variants, known in RAF service as the GR1. The squadron, which traces its history back to World War I, and took part in the famous World War II operation to sink the German battleship Tirpitz, had previously operated the Avro Vulcan heavy bomber.

The Falklands War was just ending as No. IX(B) was reaching its operational status, meaning that no Tornadoes saw action in the South Atlantic. Instead, the truly multi-mission Tornado Force took up stations in the United Kingdom and West Germany to respond to a potential Soviet bloc invasion of Western Europe.

If a major conflict between NATO and the Warsaw had erupted, the RAF’s Tornado GR1s would have sortied out to destroy air bases and air defense sites in East Germany with a mix of regular high explosive and cluster bombs, fixed cluster munitions dispensers containing runway cratering bomblets and anti-personnel mines, and anti-radiation missiles. Aircraft based in West Germany might have also found themselves carrying WE.177 nuclear gravity bombs.

GR1As, equipped with the Tornado Infra-Red Reconnaissance System (TIRRS), were also available to fly pre- and post-strike reconnaissance missions. TIRRS consisted of side-looking infrared cameras on either side of the forward fuselage in place of the two BK-27 cannons and an infrared line scanner camera in the lower fuselage, which gave them a general tactical reconnaissance capability. State of the art for its time, the system recorded imagery and full-motion video on six S-VHS cassettes that personnel would have to retrieve when the aircraft returned to base.

Anthony Noble via Wikimedia
A Tornado GR1A. The window for the left-side mounted camera is visible just to the right of the national insignia on the forward fuselage.

The RAF also had a smaller number of GR1Bs that could carry Sea Eagle anti-ship cruise missiles based in Scotland. From there, these jets would have gone hunting for Soviet ships in the Norwegian Sea, North Sea, and other nearby bodies of water.

In 1984, the RAF also began flying its first version of the ADV, known as the F2, but problems with the Foxhunter radar left them relegated primarily to training duties. The jets flew with concrete ballast in their nose, which RAF personnel jokingly referred to as the "Blue Circle" radar, a play on a popular cement brand and British "Rainbow Codes" naming convention for advanced military equipment.

The F2 quickly gave way to the F3, which finally featured working radars, as well as an improved version of the RB199 engine. In 1987, 29 Squadron became the first RAF unit to actually fly the F3 operationally.

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A pair of Tornado F3s.

The RAF expected these jets to focus primarily on intercepting Soviet bombers, and engage them at beyond visual range, during any potential conflict. But compared to other fighter jets of the era, the F3’s maneuverability in more close-in engagements was notably poor.

Still, British pilots demonstrated that the combination of their jet’s dash speed, Foxhunter radar, Skyflash missiles, and good tactics could be deadly even against some of the best opponents. RAF F3s came out on top against U.S. Navy F-14 Tomcats and F/A-18 Hornets, among others, in numerous training exercises, something you can read about more here.

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A Tornado F3 intercepts a Russian Tu-160 Blackjack bomber.

Thankfully the twilight of the Cold War remained cold and no Tornadoes ever had to fly into action against the Soviet Union or the Warsaw Pact. GR1s and F3s instead saw their first combat missions against Iraqi forces following Saddam Hussein’s invasion of Kuwait.

The GR1s performed many of the same missions they would have done in a European conflict, using unguided bombs and JP233 luster munition dispensers, as well as new laser-guided bombs, to attack Iraqi airfields and surface-to-air missile systems. F3s flew thousands of combat air patrols overhead to keep away enemy fighter jets.

The Tornado did not have its own laser designator, requiring other aircraft to mark targets initially. Some of the jets eventually did receive the GEC Marconi Thermal Imaging Airborne Laser Designator (TIALD) targeting pod during the conflict to allow them to laser designate targets themselves.

The United Kingdom became the first country to lose a Tornado in combat when an Iraqi soldier shot one down with a SA-16 shoulder-fired surface-to-air missile in January 1991. The RAF would lose five more aircraft during the campaign to eject Saddam’s troops from Kuwait.

Analysis of these incidents highlighted the risks of the Tonka's low-level tactics. The jets had to make extremely low passes to effectively employ the JP233s in particular. By the end of the First Gulf War, these types of missions had given way to higher-altitude bombing runs.

Lessons learned from the GR1’s performance during the conflict also contributed to a Mid-Life Update program that began in 1996. British Aerospace, BAC’s successor, eventually upgraded more than 140 GR1s and GR1As to the new GR4 and GR4A standard. This improvement program, which ran through 2003, added new avionics, updated communications equipment and data links, and a more robust ability to self-designate targets for laser guided bombs through the eventual integration of the Israeli-developed LITENING targeting pod.

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A Tornado GR4A with the Litening targeting pod visible under the forward fuselage.

As the upgrade program was progressing, GR1s continued to serve in the Middle East, contributing to no-fly zones over Iraq, and took part in international peacekeeping and peace enforcement missions in the Balkans, flying over Bosnia and Herzegovina and Kosovo. The Tonkas had firmly become the primary combat aircraft in the RAF.

Separately, in the late 1990s, the Tornado GR1 and GR4s gained the ability to carry the Reconnaissance Airborne Pod Tornado (RAPTOR), a U.K.-specific version of the DB-110 intelligence, surveillance, and reconnaissance pod, which you can read more about here. This system effectively rendered the older TIRRS obsolete, allowing tactical reconnaissance squadrons to fly regular GR1s and GR4s.

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A Tornado GR4A carrying the RAPTOR pod.

In 2003, Tornados took part in the opening phases of the invasion of Iraq, employing the new Storm Shadow cruise missile, as well as RAPTOR, in combat for the very first time. Unlike during the First Gulf War, the Tornado Force suffered virtually no losses during the conflict. The one exception was when a U.S. Army Patriot surface-to-air missile battery mistakenly identified one of the Tonkas as an enemy jet and shot it down, killing both pilots on board.

Precision guided munitions steadily became the norm, as well. During the Kosovo campaign, just a quarter of the munitions that the Tonkas employed were guided. In Iraq in 2003, 85 percent of all the weapons they used were “smart.” At this time, the primary precision guided munitions were laser-guided Paveway bombs, but the Tornadoes arsenal eventually expanded to include dual-mode laser- and GPS/INS-guided Enhanced Paveway bombs and dual-mode Brimstone missiles. The last RAF Tonkas left Iraq in 2009.

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A Tornado GR4 with a mixed load of Paveway precision-guided bombs and a Brimstone missile during a training exercise.

The Tonkas remained at the core of the RAF’s combat capabilities even after the introduction of the Eurofighter Typhoon, which began in 2003. Difficulty in that aircarft's development delays its entry into service to begin with and when it did arrive, it had extremely limited air-to-ground capabilities. But those more modern jets did certainly contribute to the decision to retire the Tornado F3s, which the RAF stopped flying for good in 2012.

The remaining GR4s continued to receive additional upgrades. In 2004, BAE Systems, which had absorbed British Aerospace, began overhauling the front and rear cockpits in these jets, adding in new digital multifunction displays in place of old CRT screens. They called the update the Tornado Advanced Radar Display Information System, or TARDIS, a clear reference to the phone box-shaped time machine in the popular British television series Dr. Who.

After Iraq, and with these additional upgrades, Tonkas made their way to Afghanistan to take part in that conflict. The last jets headed home from that theater in 2014. RAF Tornados also took part in the U.S.-led campaign in Libya in 2011 that led to the ouster of long-time dictator Muammar Gaddafi.

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A Libyan tank seen through a Tornado GR4's targeting pod before its destruction at the hands of a Brimstone missile.

The last major campaign for the RAF’s Tornados began in 2014 with operations against ISIS in Iraq, with those operations eventually extending into Eastern Syria. The aging swing-wing jets also took part in the U.S.-led missile strikes against Bashar Al Assad’s chemical weapons infrastructure on Apr. 14, 2018. Four Tonkas, flying from RAF Akrotiri in Cyprus, each fired two Storm Shadow cruise missiles at a weapon storage facility west of the Syrian city of Homs.

Over the years, the Tonkas have been a regular sight across the United Kingdom, as well as elsewhere around the world, during training exercises and at air shows. They were also called upon for non-combat missions now and again. In 2014, 31 Squadron’s jets notably used their RAPTOR pods to capture imagery of flooding in the Thames River Valley in support of disaster relief efforts.

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Annotated imagery from a Tornado's RAPTOR pod of flooding in the Thames River Valley in 2014.

So, the sunset of the United Kingdom’s Tornadoes and the celebration of their lengthy service is certainly bittersweet for many. It certainly marks a major change for the RAF.

Typhoons will be the aircraft to primarily take over from the Tornado now. The RAF eventually plans for the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter to fulfill many of the roles the Tonka had fulfilled as time goes on. No. IX(B) Squadron will reform as a Typhoon unit on Apr. 1, 2019, while 31 Squadron will come back into being in 2024 to begin flying the Protector unmanned aircraft, a derivative of the General Atomics MQ-9 Reaper.

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No. IX(B) Squadron gave one of its GR4s this special scheme in late 2018, marking 36 years flying the Tornado.

The RAF’s retirement of the Tornado also marks the continued decline of active swing-wing combat jets in service around the world. The Tonka itself was never a big export success, with the only customer outside of the Panavia cooperative being Saudi Arabia.

Italy is slated to replace its jets with the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter by 2025. The Germans are looking to retire their entire fleet with an as yet unknown type by 2030. It's not clear how much longer the Saudis, who are steadily acquiring more advanced combat jets, expect to fly their Tonkas.

"It was an honor and a privilege to be the crew to fly this iconic jet for the very last time and the fact that we have been able to conduct these flypasts is testament to the hard work that has been put in by the engineers to ensure the jets were serviceable,” Squadron Leader Dornan said after finishing the final Tornado flight. “The skies over Norfolk and the U.K. are going to be a lot emptier without her.”

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Unfortunately, nothing, no matter how "Tonka Tough," lasts forever. But the Tornado certainty made its mark on the RAF and will be fondly remembered years from now as an essential part of the service's history.

 

[Ultima Thule]

Well , if they land and tested by PAF pilots frequently " inside Pakistan " then nothing is sensitive.

sitting on the back seat GIBS seat is not called testing and in Pakistan they are for exercise, that doesn't means then China want to sell J-11 to Pakistan @HAIDER

 

[New World]

2yrs after a new platform starts landing in the UAE.
.

Will they come to Pakistan after 2yrs.

 

[crankthatskunk]

Anything from yesteryear is that, yesteryear.

 

[HAIDER]

sitting on the back seat GIBS seat is not called testing and in Pakistan they are for exercise, that doesn't means then China want to sell J-11 to Pakistan @HAIDER

You don't need to buy, you learn how this plane counter against your inventory. And how can we play cat and mouse game in combat scenario. Pakistani pilot been working with Chinese SU30 for long time.

 

[Ultima Thule]

You don't need to buy, you learn how this plane counter against your inventory. And how can we play cat and mouse game in combat scenario. Pakistani pilot been working with Chinese SU30 for long time.

Only for developing tactics against IAF MKI, that's doesn't mean they want to sell it to Pakistan, in fact they can't sell to third party without approval from Russia @HAIDER

 

[denel]

@MastanKhan you are being missed on this.

 

[HAIDER]

Only for developing tactics against IAF MKI, that's doesn't mean they want to sell it to Pakistan, in fact they can't sell to third party without approval from Russia @HAIDER

We had too many threads about single-engine and double engine. Pakistan never interested in dual engine aircraft. It doesn't suit to our doctrine. PAF believe in agility for deep strike , Pak has missile technology, which can handle easily deep inside Indian assets. Both F16 or JF17 are low maintenance light strike aircraft.
A good read for those believe Pakistan should go for dual engine.

"
As a dogfighter, the F-16 would be hard to beat. Its just physics. The SU-30 is big and heavy so has more inertia.
Having said that, tt is an amazingly powerful and capable aircraft but again it depends what you are doing. People bang on about thrust vectoring but you have to remember thrust vectoring can also be a disadvantage. When you switch from wing borne flight to thrust vectoring, particularly post stall or at very high AOA, the aircraft slows down and the physics changes. The aircraft tends to wallow about nose high.
The F-16 is also a much smaller visual target to acquire and being lighter can make changes of attitude or rapid changes of direction more quickly.

Perhaps a Viper driver can chime in here. "

 

[MastanKhan]

@MastanKhan you are being missed on this.

Hi

As armchair mentioned “ let the dodo’s talk it out on the thread

 

[Ultima Thule]

We had too many threads about single-engine and double engine. Pakistan never interested in dual engine aircraft. It doesn't suit to our doctrine. PAF believe in agility for deep strike , Pak has missile technology, which can handle easily deep inside Indian assets. Both F16 or JF17 are low maintenance light strike aircraft.
A good read for those believe Pakistan should go for dual engine.

"
As a dogfighter, the F-16 would be hard to beat. Its just physics. The SU-30 is big and heavy so has more inertia.
Having said that, tt is an amazingly powerful and capable aircraft but again it depends what you are doing. People bang on about thrust vectoring but you have to remember thrust vectoring can also be a disadvantage. When you switch from wing borne flight to thrust vectoring, particularly post stall or at very high AOA, the aircraft slows down and the physics changes. The aircraft tends to wallow about nose high.
The F-16 is also a much smaller visual target to acquire and being lighter can make changes of attitude or rapid changes of direction more quickly.

Perhaps a Viper driver can chime in here. "

So why you suggesting that China might sell J-11 to Pakistan or Pakistan interested in J-11 series of jets, and for twin engine is no problem for PAF,in past PAF had have twin engine jets, remember F-6/A-5 @HAIDER

 

[HAIDER]

So why you suggesting that China might sell J-11 to Pakistan or Pakistan interested in J-11 series of jets, and for twin engine is no problem for PAF,in past PAF had have twin engine jets, remember F-6/A-5 @HAIDER

A squadron not a bad idea for combat excerise ...I would say Pakistan should go for more F16 from any country, even retired ones in surplus depot.

 

[Ultima Thule]

A squadron not a bad idea for combat excerise ...I would say Pakistan should go for more F16 from any country, even retired ones in surplus depot.

exercise already done with J-11 series in Pakistan, when we came out from F-16 craziness, why we don't go J-10C or Mig-35 @HAIDER

 

[Humble Analyst]

Nuclear this, nuclear that, blah blah blah. I'm sorry but it wasnt a nuclear tipped missile that gave the Indians a mouth shattering response on the 27th. Conventional warfare is still the most dominant form of warfare. Deep strike fighters are need to attack the Indians far east and central, locations. Anyone that says otherwise is frankly, stupid.

Lunch a nuclear missile and face a nuclear missile in return. Killing thousands of people on our side too. Lunch a deep strike and they can only hope to accomplish the same.


Might as well give them prop planes.

Words of wisdom and need to understand every delivery is not going to be nuclear. Need a maritime strike plane with log range to protect from Aircraft carriers and missile armed destroyers. Unfortunately a lot of people avoid thinking beyond basics.
Maybe this is or not the right plane for PAF but long range deep strike plane is needed.

 

[MastanKhan]

This is quite a lame thread. It is a thread about JH-7 in PAF by a poster who doesn't think this should happen. If this thread had been started by @MastanKhan it could have produced some interesting ideas, strategies, analysis and technical info. But just now, this thread is like a dodo trying to fly.

@MastanKhan you are being missed on this.

Hi,

The thread starter has no input of his own---. So---is it worth acknowledging---?

@Armchair

Here is your comment from 2018 Jun 3, 2018#61

" It may be worth mentioning (which is missing from the discussion here), that the JH-7B's engines and aerodynamics is designed for low level penetration, somethings others are not. This means that it has considerably better performance in that sphere. I'm surprised a senior mod here with engineering and defense aerospace background argued against you @MastanKhan without any consideration of that ".


Jun 4, 2018#62

"Well---one has to understand that concept of the design first to comment on it---. Most posters think that newer is better---. They are more focused on multi role aircraft having no concept that there was a time when there were aircraft manufactured for specific roles---.

The JH7 is a copy of the F111---the ultimate low flying strike aircraft---other than the swing wing option---".