Utility of JH7 for PAF

[Ultima Thule]

"The J-11B is roughly analogous in its capabilities to India's Su-30MKI - modernised derivatives of the Soviet Su-27 air superiority fighter. The J-11B provides a capability which Pakistan lacks, and when deployed to Pakistani skies largely nullifies India's primary advantage in the air. China's deployment of the JH-7 strike fighter also gives a much needed boost to Pakistan's otherwise sorely lacking penetrative strike capabilities - at speeds and ranges and with high payloads which light jets such as the JF-17 cannot match. What the Chinese deployment signifies is that the country seeks parity and stability in South Asia - and ultimately for neither party to be capable of waging an aggressive war on the other. The appearance of the J-11B on India's Western borders sends a strong signal that should China provide Pakistan with even minimal air - either directly or through the transfer of high end arms - India would not enjoy such a one sided advantage in an air war with Pakistan as it otherwise would against its fleet of light F-16 and JF-17 fighters. By deploying the J-11B rather than more advanced platforms such as the J-20 however, a fifth generation platform currently unmatched by anything in the Indian inventory, or the elite J-16 strike fighter which considerably surpasses the JH-7 in its performance China has indicated that it does not seek an arms race or destabilisation in South Asia - only strategic balance between the two regional powers. The J-11B and JH-7 thus symbolise an attempt to match but not to suppress Indian capabilities - as this is the most effective means to prevent war. Ultimately maintaining regional peace remains the Chinese strategic priority, not only because it already faces far more serious security threats on its eastern borders from the Western Bloc but also because the future of its One Belt Road initiative depends on such peace and stability. "

China can't export J-11 series of jets to Pakistan, because its design is RUSSIAN INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY (SU-27/SU-30 BASED DESIGNS) @HAIDER

 

[HAIDER]

China can't export J-11 series of jets to Pakistan, because its design is RUSSIAN INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY (SU-27/SU-30 BASED DESIGNS) @HAIDER

If RD93/33 can come through Chinese channel then J11 is not a problem. Only it missing AL31 TVC, which has no role in combat mission .

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

How about procuring Tornadoes F3....being retired from RAF. 2nd most reliable European jet after French Mirages.

Performance

• Maximum speed: Mach 2.2 (2,400 km/h, 1,490 mph) at 9,000 m / 30,000 ft altitude; 800 knots, 1,482 km/h, 921 mph indicated airspeed near sea level
• Combat radius: more than 1,853 km (1000 nmi, 1,151 mi) (subsonic), more than 556 km (300 nmi, 345 mi) supersonic
• Ferry range: 4,265 km[71] (2,300 nmi, 2,650 mi) with four external tanks
• Endurance: 2 hr combat air patrol at 560–740 km (300–400 nmi, 345–460 mi) from base
• Service ceiling: 15,240 m[72] (50,000 ft)

Armament

• Guns
  • 1 × 27 mm (1.063 in) Mauser BK-27 revolver cannon with 180 rounds (internally mounted under starboard side of fuselage, versus 2× BK-27 mounted on Panavia Tornado IDS)
• Hardpoints: 10 total (4× semi-recessed under-fuselage, 2× under-fuselage, 4× swivelling under-wing) holding up to 9000 kg (19,800 lb) of payload, the two inner wing pylons have shoulder launch rails for 2× Short-Range AAM (SRAAM) each
  • 4× AIM-9 Sidewinder or AIM-132 ASRAAM
  • 4× British Aerospace Skyflash or AIM-120 AMRAAM (mounted on 4 semi-recessed under-fuselage hardpoints)
• Others:
  • Up to 2× drop tanks for extended range/loitering time. Up to 4 drop tanks for ferry role (at the expense of 4 Skyflash/AMRAAM).

• GEC-Marconi/Ferranti AI.24 Foxhunter radar

Best bet is to procure more Mirage III and Mirage V. The EAF has some upgraded Mirages. Remember the Israelis developed their own Kfir which are till now updated. They are still used as reserves because they are designed and equipped for a symmetrical war.

 

[NA71]

Best bet is to procure more Mirage III and Mirage V. The EAF has some upgraded Mirages. Remember the Israelis developed their own Kfir which are till now updated. They are still used as reserves because they are designed and equipped for a symmetrical war.

Tornados are twin engines... v high speed....low altitude flying machines and above all, tested/ proven in deep strike missions.

 

[Ultima Thule]

If RD93/33 can come through Chinese channel then J11 is not a problem. Only it missing AL31 TVC, which has no role in combat mission .

RD-33/93 is not sensitive tech for Russian and in Russian of Su-27/30 for China,in those deals has Clauses that China can't export SU-27/30 and its indigenous versions to any third party @HAIDER

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

Pakistan has budget issue. No money for new planes. You have to modify whatever you have. But, PAF old frames of Mirage are in excellent condition and enough space to fitin modern avionics. Pakistan is lucky enough to have sanction free JF17. Otherwise F16 parts are under control by the producer. And there is no chance Pakistan will get new F16 from its budget.
Pakistan ultimate source is China or if any NATO country retire its F16 after adoption of F35. But those F16 will be stripped, because they were modified for NATO members.

Sir,
my reply was in regards to a new platform being introduced. If a new platform is being considered then it must be in 5th generation. otherwise what you are saying in regards to Mirages and F-16 is correct. F-16 aircraft flown by NATO member states are not as advance and the Block 52's PAF has, hence they will not be striped off rather will be be upgraded. The most advanced F-16 currently operated by NATO member states are with Poland which are similar to PAF F-16 block 52

Tornados are twin engines... v high speed....low altitude flying machines and above all, tested/ proven in deep strike missions.

They are for Land attack role but not for maritime role.

 

[Pakhtoon yum]

Never expected this from you. Had it been some other poster then one could have said the thread is made by someone obsessed or is too naive. After so many years and debating this aircraft to its core and being rejected every single time bringing it up now indirectly suggests that you my friend have lost abilities of finding something better. My friend my advice is take a few days rest from PDF and enjoy some time away so that you are fresh and your mind is rejuvenated.


The issue of deep strike and which is the suitable platform needs to be based on certain parameters. Just assuming that this platform is not adequate for the job and this is needs to be explained.

JF-17 is inadequate how?
How is J-11 series adequate?
What are the other options that were considered but rejected?

How? Care to explain.
JF-17 is inadequate how?
Mirrage III/V inadequate how?
How is J-11 series adequate?
What are the other options that were considered but rejected?
What were the threats and parameters considered?

Heh? I dont mean this aircraft. I mean a deep strike one.

 

[HAIDER]

Sir,
my reply was in regards to a new platform being introduced. If a new platform is being considered then it must be in 5th generation. otherwise what you are saying in regards to Mirages and F-16 is correct. F-16 aircraft flown by NATO member states are not as advance and the Block 52's PAF has, hence they will not be striped off rather will be be upgraded. The most advanced F-16 currently operated by NATO member states are with Poland which are similar to PAF F-16 block 52


They are for Land attack role but not for maritime role.

NATO members use very advance datalink. NATO F16 is totally different beast. They udpate there planes very frequently. Because US pay 98 percent of NATO plane upgrade cost and these EU pay only 2 percent or less then that. Listen Trump last speech to NATO member countries. Trump extremely pissed because now he wants NATO members to share the cost.

 

[Pakhtoon yum]

I would dsagree with this assertion. If you are going to attack those parts of India, you will need to use a Nuke tipped missile. Air dropping ammo into those areas will be highly dangerous and you will lose a lot of platforms. As to the Nuke vs conventional missile debate there is no question that any missile approaching you will be considered to be Nuke tipped and responded to appropriately irrespective of whether it is nuke tipped or not. The only othe option might be to deploy Sub based CMs but even then if you are going to tae that risk it has to cause enough devastation for it to be worth while. This is precisel y the reason that war in the subcontinewnt is going to be a Zero sum game
A


A lot more sensible to acquire those as compared to JH7s

Fair point, but what if not for India but let's say the western edge of Afghanistan, or something. A deep strike fighter is needed. 2-3 squadrons

 

[HAIDER]

RD-33/93 is not sensitive tech for Russian and in Russian of Su-27/30 for China,in those deals has Clauses that China can't export SU-27/30 and its indigenous versions to any third party @HAIDER

Well , if they land and tested by PAF pilots frequently " inside Pakistan " then nothing is sensitive.

Fairpoint, but what if not for India but let's say the western edge of Afghanistan, or something. A deep strike fighter is needed. 2-3 squadrons

To strike inside Afghanistan your F7PG are enough. Otherwise what you will hit inside Afghanistan. Hitting rocks and stones. For Afghanistan Pakistan need airborne rapid deployment force. To waste ammo in Afghanistan ,Pak need precision strike. Otherwise drop JDAM all day and all night, nothing will come out. Pakistan will need that force very soon. Because there is surge of IS in Afghanistan. According to Pomepeo, IS has more 300 million in cash. Enough to spread terrorism.

 

[Pakhtoon yum]

Well , if they land and tested by PAF pilots frequently " inside Pakistan " then nothing is sensitive.


To strike inside Afghanistan your F7PG are enough. Otherwise what you will hit inside Afghanistan. Hitting rocks and stones. For Afghanistan Pakistan need airborne rapid deployment force.

For how long though? Is Pakistan going to play a defensive role for the rest of uta existence? No country survives on being defensive, ever!

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

NATO members use very advance datalink. NATO F16 is totally different beast. They udpate there planes very frequently. Because US pay 98 percent of NATO plane upgrade cost and these EU pay only 2 percent or less then that. Listen Trump last speech to NATO member countries.

will go through the speech.
What is your say on SU-57 export variant that Russia has offered to Turkey and will be publicly shown in the near future? Can this be on PAF and PN radar if Turkey accepts to upgrade with Turkish and western subsystems.

 

[HAIDER]

For how long though? Is Pakistan going to play a defensive role for the rest of uta existence? No country survives on being defensive, ever!

Well, to have aggressive offense strategy , you have to have strong defence. For example, on LOC Indian are firing on Pak position and local population right and left. And Pakistan only option to hit Indian position to avoid local casualties. Because these local people are our strategic asset.

will go through the speech.
What is your say on SU-57 export variant that Russia has offered to Turkey and will be publicly shown in the near future? Can this be on PAF and PN radar if Turkey accepts to upgrade with Turkish and western subsystems.

SU57 is not even tested in real time scenario. Russian did some deployment in Syria as ground strike weapon. We ll see when they stand infront of Isreali F35. Otherwise buying A version plane is waste of money.

 

[New World]

Need a deep strike twin engine jet. JF-17 cannot do everything. Could possibly look into J-11. It's based off the SU-27 and will add another dimension to the PAF.

J-16 would be better than J-11B.

@Khafee sirji, When UAE is retiring its M2K? and inducting Tornado will be useful?

 

[Khafee]

J-16 would be better than J-11B.

@Khafee sirji, When UAE is retiring its M2K? and inducting Tornado will be useful?

2yrs after a new platform starts landing in the UAE.

Tornado is very maintenance intensive.