Used F16's - EDA 50 ~ 100 Available

[Raider 21]

Gripen was never a consideration---the Paf wanted to steal its working design for its JF17---and that is what the JF17 is going to end up as---a competition for the Gripen in the BLK 3 mode---.

Two F-16 pilots from No.9 squadron in 1993 were selected to go to the Saab facility in Sweden to evaluate the Gripen. But for some reason the trip got cancelled, I'm unaware of the reason.

 

[帅的一匹]

Hi,

Yes you do---an air marshal or an avm receives a brief case



Hi,

And the Rafale would have been the perfect choice for the Paf---a total coupe de grace---. The best 4.5 gen aircraft out there---and then the U S would be begging the Paf for the F16's---.

The Paf never understood how to make a deal---it never understood how to sabotage the enemy's procurements either---.

With the Rafale deal secured---the JF17 would have been given the right ew package and power plant in a timely manner and the Paf would have come thru with a smile on its face---.

Paf in its absurdity---it did not look at what the Rafale would do for them---it looked at as if the French wanted to sell the aircraft to save their aviation industry---. It did not realize that it was leaving the door open for a tier 1 aircraft for India again---.

First the mirage 2K---and then the Rafale---. Some in the air force need to be executed for treason.

Gripen was never a consideration---the Paf wanted to steal its working design for its JF17---and that is what the JF17 is going to end up as---a competition for the Gripen in the BLK 3 mode---.

Do in Rome as Rome does

 

[The Accountant]

Some Pakistanis capability for self-delusion is incredible. You want Pakistan to be free from US influence yet continue to pursue F-16s and hope for the best, knowing full well that US will give with one hand and hit you with another.

Then the same people complain about US duplicity. Then they quickly forget it and resume wanting F-16s. Repat

I think PAF has moved on mentally from the F-16s and are pursuing other options.

I hope Pakistani generals realize this ... We cant depand on USA for our top tier fighter ... Mistakes done in past should not be repeated ...

There is no question about capability of these fighter with upgrades ... However. the strings are too strong to use them at thier potential level ...

 

[Khafee]

Hi,

Here is what happened with the first F16 sanctions---. I have stated many a times---americans do not deceive---they are very upfront---they will give you ample warning of what is coming---.

Same was the cas ewith that F16 purchase---i was in the U S at that time---. The media was ripe with the news of threats of U S sanctions---due to threats by U S congressman Steven Solariz---and then a senator.

The welwishers asked Paf to go with the Mirage 2k's---that is before the sanctions hit---Paf did not listen---did not believe what was being told---.

Then they told them---to deal with the seller and not the govt---dealing with the seller had its own reasoning---. But no---due to the 150 mil dollars kickback the deal was done thru the U S govt---.

Then welwishers told pakistan to stop the payment and sue the u s govt in a court of law for the money---the pak govt did not do that because---Benazir had already received her kick backs---.

Now---why do I say that Paf has STABBED pakistan in the back many a times---. Here is one of those times---they wilfully went for the F16's even though they were told not to---.

And then to top it off---they made the pakistani public hate the americans for putting sanctions on them---. The Paf never once clarified that it was not the americans that had created the problem---it was Paf that was responsible for it.

If the Paf had gone for the Mirage 2k's at that time---there would have been no reason for the sanctions---because with M2k's---the Paf would be able to do its missions---.

So---decades of hate for the U S for no fault of theirs---.

It would be pertinent to mention here, that during the embargo years PAF had to pay 3 times the normal price, for getting spare parts from Israel.

This is justifiable, but getting the M2K was not, logic just killed itself that day.

if PA thinks that it can simply modernize its strike core or provide decent SAM coverage and fulfill its objective without having a strong PAF than this is stupidity of unproportional magnitude

no amount of modernized strike core (even with decent SAMs) can face wrath of an air force armed with cluster ammunition

PA needs to sacrifice some of its needs to make sure PAF is armed well, this would mean at least getting size of 400 4th gen aircraft(a mix of thunders+f-16s e.g 250+150 combo in next 5-10 years) to ensure that IAF will not be able to get air superiority established within the first week of conflict. I believe even if this means that it has to sacrifice it new generation tank or new gen 155mm artillery for time being.

in front of 250+ su30 +150 mig29/mirage2000 +150 new gen fighters(rafale+single jet engines) paf will be in severe disadvantage(600+ 4th gen fighters)

the whole cold start doctrine is based upon superior air force

the Pak army strategic strike core concept is useless without air support

instead what i am seeing is spending spree by the army worth billion of dollars (new gen tanks, new artillery, new multiple gunships, new rifles) with PAF barely keeping up its thunder production on loans

PS
J 31 will be more relevant if PAF has enough base fighters

as the situation stands now, it seems PAF will have money issues to even keep thunder rolling beyond 150
should PAF attain J-10s? i guess the asnwer lies wihther it can get hold of used f-16s and or not
if it can i would simply stick to f-16s given thunder and J 31 concept

Well said, except PA does not need to sacrifice it's budget for PAF.

When your politicians are corrupt to the core, just the right amount of pressure, in the right place, can do wonders. Hope you got my point.

Not saying the m2k wasn't the right choice, but I'll stick to my sources on the deal and you can to yours.. from there its agree to disagree

You still haven't explained, how you put us and the RSAF, in the same boat?

 

[Reichsmarschall]

I think its almost confirmed that the J-31 is being customized for the PAF. On J-20, I don't think the PAF will need it as there is no real value for a super expensive stealth strike platform like it. In the future, I can also see Pakistan using tech from J-31 to build and advance a stealth parts / equipment industry that would produce equipment for the J-31 slowly but surely.

which fighter will counter Indian FGFA Su50 and F-35 they are going to buy them in numbers

 

[IceCold]

USA is backstabbing Pakistan.

US is not backstabbing Pakistan, its Pakistan that wants to be back stabbed again and again. Maybe we have a fetish for that. As @MastanKhan sb said the writing has been on the wall ever since. It is only us who do not want to see it and bury our heads in the sand as if nothing is wrong. FC-20 aka J-10 should had been acquired the first time it was offered to Pakistan during Musharraf tenure. Had we acquired the plane than, not only would we had trained J-10 pilots by now but also all the upgrades happening on J-10 and J-20 would had eventually made their way to Pakistani FC-20. Plus no chances of it getting sanctioned during any India Pakistan conflict. Moreover J-10 is the only jet along with JF-17 that India has no clue about. How it performs etc whereas compared to that India regularly trains with Singapore Air force with their block 52 F-16s and Now Israeli airforce F-16 Sufa. IAF knows everything about F-16 that is there to know.
PAF not only screwed on Mirage deal in the 90s but repeated the same with J-10 when it chose to go for F-16s instead of J-10s.

 

[帅的一匹]

US is not backstabbing Pakistan, its Pakistan that wants to be back stabbed again and again. Maybe we have a fetish for that. As @MastanKhan sb said the writing has been on the wall ever since. It is only us who do not want to see it and bury our heads in the sand as if nothing is wrong. FC-20 aka J-10 should had been acquired the first time it was offered to Pakistan during Musharraf tenure. Had we acquired the plane than, not only would we had trained J-10 pilots by now but also all the upgrades happening on J-10 and J-20 would had eventually made their way to Pakistani FC-20. Plus no chances of it getting sanctioned during any India Pakistan conflict. Moreover J-10 is the only jet along with JF-17 that India has no clue about. How it performs etc whereas compared to that India regularly trains with Singapore Air force with their block 52 F-16s and Now Israeli airforce F-16 Sufa. IAF knows everything about F-16 that is there to know.
PAF not only screwed on Mirage deal in the 90s but repeated the same with J-10 when it chose to go for F-16s instead of J-10s.

The lingering about F16 is not necessarily at all, PAF shall move forward.

IAF is very familiar with F16BLK52, F16 has no value anymore. If IAF induct F16BLK70 production line, then PAF just need to retire all its F16 fleet. I'm very worried for PAF, seems they don't.

PAF shall run a pilotes exchange program with PLAAF. So that PLAAF can train J10b/c pilotes for PAF. When push come to shove, PAF can get existing J10 from PLAAF to fight its enemy. If Pakistan is under attack, China will provide anything you need to deal with enemy, free of charge! 100% Chinese won't have problem with their taxation coming to Pakistan aid.

 

[IceCold]

The lingering about F16 is not necessarily at all, PAF shall move forward.

I can only hope that they do but from the looks of it i doubt it.

IAF is very familiar with F16BLK52, F16 has no value anymore. If IAF induct F16BLK70 production line, then PAF just need to retire all its F16 fleet. I'm very worried for PAF, seems they don't.

We continue to evaluate Chinese options and than when the time comes, Uncle SAM throws a bone and PAF just runs towards it. Because of the nuke factor it appears PAF does not even look for wining a war as i have stated elsewhere. Their only goal appears for a stalemate or to hold IAF till International pressure falls in fearing nukes. This is a loser strategy to begin with. You dont fight a war with a stalemate in your mind, you fight it to win. With IAF acquiring modern platforms and investing in ABM and SAM systems, it will become further and further difficult for PAF to even hold IAF till international pressure mounts in. Its a good thing that PA has started to induct some decent SAM system as i think they know deep down that during war with India, they would not be able to rely on PAF for effective cover to land assets and this is all because of pathetic planning on part of the air force who still believes the answer for every threat lies in F-16s and that too in such small numbers and apparently no future upgrades.

 

[ziaulislam]

It would be pertinent to mention here, that during the embargo years PAF had to pay 3 times the normal price, for getting spare parts from Israel.

This is justifiable, but getting the M2K was not, logic just killed itself that day.



Well said, except PA does not need to sacrifice it's budget for PAF.

When your politicians are corrupt to the core, just the right amount of pressure, in the right place, can do wonders. Hope you got my point.


You still haven't explained, how you put us and the RSAF, in the same boat?

i am a realistic person, and in socialist-nationalist tag team we have, that are well supported by our people inculidng almost all people on this forum, we are not going to have resources(instead will waste them on PIA, steel mills and other corrupt institutions=5+ billion dollars in last 5 years)

in that case PA, PAF,PN need to sit together an prioritize what they have
PAF needs to change its mindset from minimum stale mate to atleast some credible power, this means it needs to increase it fighters by 400, i think even thunder is potent and relevant fighter as long as IAF will operate fourth gen single jet engines fighters like mirage2000, tejas, new gen single fighter

whether PAF should go for J-10 or J-11, well at his moment it seems they are even reluctant to induct sufficient numbers of super cheap thunder, we havent reached to the point to consider other fighters yet

F-16 is by no means an inferior fighter and these days i dont expect 90s sanctions,

but again its not worth 90 million dollars capability wise yes/maybe, strings and other geo political factors says no

so definitively no new f-16s

 

[Readerdefence]

Bro. If we deny BD's request for jets, we push them to India. As BD is a traditional user of Chinese weapon, I see no reason they will betray China for India. Yeh, the cutting edge fighter is FC31 and J20, we won't export it except Pakistan. Although the Awami league is pro India, they also are pro China, we will make sure everything is under control. I have heard some rumors:
1. BD will buy FC1/JF17 from CAC not PAC, the revenue will be split between China and Pakistan( it all about ego of BD, you guys have hidden scars about 1971, but in realistic politics you guys have no clash as of now!)
2. They will go for FC20(mostly like J10A, some said its B). 99% Bangladeshis in this forum support this option as I survey here. As Burmese airforce is having JF17, they think BAF shall look up to J10.

What I want to say is. If China can sell BD FC20, we must offer it to Pakistan long long long time ago. I know the importance of numbers, but it has got to so with money.

What I really concern is the sales of JF17 to Burma, which might not be a trusted one in the future. The Burmese try to collude with India by reinforcing the military ties. As the mean time, Bangladeshis obviously have no good feeling towards India.

Hidden scars are prominent now as our foreign affairs adviser has openly said on the air
About BD,s foreign policy towards Pakistan
So I hope china is not selling them j10 as were discussing on SDF also

 

[帅的一匹]

Hidden scars are prominent now as our foreign affairs adviser has openly said on the air
About BD,s foreign policy towards Pakistan
So I hope china is not selling them j10 as were discussing on SDF also

Maybe you can make a survey by opening a new thread in China section, titled as " shall China sell J10 to BAF?" I feel stressed out in this topic. I don't know what to do...... It's government decision, not mine. If china doesn't sell what BAF seriously ask for, India will take it as a propaganda to promote weapons to BAF. We can't let those who pro-China down. Maybe it's J10A, cause we don't have export license for B version yet. Also can't exclude the possibility of FC1/JF17 manufactured in CAC.

China's strategy is to unite BD with China/Pakistan to suppress India's expansion desire.

 

[SQ8]

It would be pertinent to mention here, that during the embargo years PAF had to pay 3 times the normal price, for getting spare parts from Israel.

This is justifiable, but getting the M2K was not, logic just killed itself that day.



Well said, except PA does not need to sacrifice it's budget for PAF.

When your politicians are corrupt to the core, just the right amount of pressure, in the right place, can do wonders. Hope you got my point.


You still haven't explained, how you put us and the RSAF, in the same boat?

For the first paragraph, the spares may have cost- but their cost never exceeded or even approached the cost of inflated training, integration and cost of system of the M2k the PAF was facing.

As for similarities with RSAF, the whim of the rulers is the point I made.. thjs was key until the mid-90s for Various projects within the UAE.

 

[Sloth 22]

ilots train on the jets which are deadliest threat to PAF which is SU30MKI....we train on su30mkk while indian pilots dont train on f16s ....this line is enough to explain u everything

My reply would go off topic, but...

A full squadron of F16 Block 52 of Singapore is based in India for years now , we do not depend upon week long exercises once a year to asses F16s.

Further we have long had a pilot exchange program with Israeli Airforce who fly one of the most advanced F16s....

By the way Su30MKK and Su30MKI are two different products from two different companies. While Su30MKI come from IRKUT, Su30 MKK/MK2 series come from KNAAPO.

Both are derivations of Su30 platform but for becoming Su30 MKI and Su30 MKK both have followed a totally different development curve.

 

[Khafee]

For the first paragraph, the spares may have cost- but their cost never exceeded or even approached the cost of inflated training, integration and cost of system of the M2k the PAF was facing.

As for similarities with RSAF, the whim of the rulers is the point I made.. thjs was key until the mid-90s for Various projects within the UAE.

It is NOT the actual cost of the F16 spares, but the humiliation of having to buy from a tyrannical genocidal maniac, who also happens to be a sworn enemy. Had the M2k been flying in PAF colors, the embargo would have meant nothing, and in all probability would not have happened.

You do realize that between the "mid-90's," and now, there is a two decades gap.

As stated earlier, our defence procurement policy has always been well thought of, and long term, but you claim it is based on "the whim of rulers," please provide evidence to back your claim.

It might interest some members to note, that none of the other Emirates have a say in our procurement policy, this is strictly an Abu Dhabi domain. Since Abu Dhabi pays the bills.

In the mid-90's Dubai's Armed Forces (Central Military Command), were autonomous, and not under the UAE Armed Forces GHQ in Abu Dhabi. That has since changed. This is just an example of how things have drastically changed over the decades. Therefore making a statement, based on two decades old info, might not be such a good idea.

Thank You.

 

[araz]

Bro, have you ever consider the induction of J10b/c of PAF might damper its sales of JF17?


Bro you can ignore my words, cause it's my personal willing.


Mastan, what you regret is not PAF doesn't induct J10b. It is PAF not choose to joint venture with China in J10 development, cause it has more room for updating(bigger fuselage and nose). PAF was determined to run its domestic fighter jet project since year 2008, so maybe J10 never stand a chance in the first beginning. And very sarcastic news is that FC20 might go to Bangladesh, I never image the first customer is not Pakistan. Period!

Kudos to FC1/JF17 chief designer Mr. yang Wei, he did great jobs to reinforce the umbilical cord between China and Pakistan.


Although you live in America, but you still are determined Patriotic. You have my respect.

Coming from a nation which has prided itself on independance and has gone to all extents and possibilities to achieve it do you blame us for following you on the path to independance?
My own view has been and remains that J10 brings nothing new to the table for PAF that it cannot incorporate and induct in its home grown project. The Chinese brothers find it convenient to let PAF try and utilize their 50 yr experience to trial and suggest changes to advance the quality of the Chinese products so Thunder remains a win win project for both and once products mature they are incorporated in the J10and other platforms. This is the depth of our relationship with China and it is a heaven sent blessing for us.
Glimpses of it aere also seen with the 3 helos which were sent to PAA.
A