Used F16's - EDA 50 ~ 100 Available

[MastanKhan]

There was no Bhakhsheesh thrown in - Proof is in eating the pudding, it was well worth it. Today the world is seeing that the prices paid was absolutely justified, considering the tech we got, when we got it, and what we got with it. Today the IAF is upgrading theirs to the -9 standards, for US$+/-40m per a/c. So Original Price + US$40m = ?
So who paid less?

"The Mirage 2000-9 programme provided the UAE AF & AD with invaluable experience and allowed the UAE to establish in-country software development, weapon integration, test and evaluation capabilities."
http://www.arabianaerospace.aero/one-careful-owner-why-mirage-sale-might-be-no-illusion.html

The UAE's procurement strategy and policy, has been crystal clear from day one, and has never face any scandals. Yes it's true that ultimately it is the SC, or DSC, who decides what has to be purchased, but that is backed by proper studies, trials, recommendations, and terms & conditions. You equating us with the RSAF and why they bought Lightenings is not only unfair, and unjust, but illogical as well.

The problem in Pakistan is that PA and PAF were on two different pages. IF the PA had stood up for PAF, and treated it like it's sister service, rather than step-sister, things would have happened and the PAF would have been a very different force today. Besides, big ticket items are never paid in one shot payment of cash, but as soft loans, spread over "X" number of years.

How the Jordanian F16's were paid for, is out there, for everyone to see. PA made it happen, otherwise NS's govt. was in no mood. Things have drastically improved between PA & PAF a lot since the M2K saga, but the damage was done, PAF missed a golden opportunity.

Hi,

The reason pakistan did not go with the direct route---ie---with the seller is because american sellers / businesses cannot give bribes to buyers---and that is the law---but if you go thru the govt---the state has its own ways---.

Like the Benazir's F16 deal---total cost shown was 450 million dollars---the actual cost was 300 million dollars and 150 million went to Mrs Benazir---.

 

[帅的一匹]

Hi,

The reason pakistan did not go with the direct route---ie---with the seller is because american sellers / businesses cannot give bribes to buyers---and that is the law---but if you go thru the govt---the state has its own ways---.

Like the Benazir's F16 deal---total cost shown was 450 million dollars---the actual cost was 300 million dollars and 150 million went to Mrs Benazir---.

Really?

150 millions kickback is a lot.

If this is, Pakistan need to run anti corruption campaign. If the top brass is taking money in weapon procurement, it do harm the spirits of the soldiers.

That's why so many people favor Imran Khan?

 

[MastanKhan]

Really?

Hi,

Here is what happened with the first F16 sanctions---. I have stated many a times---americans do not deceive---they are very upfront---they will give you ample warning of what is coming---.

Same was the cas ewith that F16 purchase---i was in the U S at that time---. The media was ripe with the news of threats of U S sanctions---due to threats by U S congressman Steven Solariz---and then a senator.

The welwishers asked Paf to go with the Mirage 2k's---that is before the sanctions hit---Paf did not listen---did not believe what was being told---.

Then they told them---to deal with the seller and not the govt---dealing with the seller had its own reasoning---. But no---due to the 150 mil dollars kickback the deal was done thru the U S govt---.

Then welwishers told pakistan to stop the payment and sue the u s govt in a court of law for the money---the pak govt did not do that because---Benazir had already received her kick backs---.

Now---why do I say that Paf has STABBED pakistan in the back many a times---. Here is one of those times---they wilfully went for the F16's even though they were told not to---.

And then to top it off---they made the pakistani public hate the americans for putting sanctions on them---. The Paf never once clarified that it was not the americans that had created the problem---it was Paf that was responsible for it.

If the Paf had gone for the Mirage 2k's at that time---there would have been no reason for the sanctions---because with M2k's---the Paf would be able to do its missions---.

So---decades of hate for the U S for no fault of theirs---.

 

[DJ_Viper]

I'll be more happy if J-20 or J-31 came to help us

I think its almost confirmed that the J-31 is being customized for the PAF. On J-20, I don't think the PAF will need it as there is no real value for a super expensive stealth strike platform like it. In the future, I can also see Pakistan using tech from J-31 to build and advance a stealth parts / equipment industry that would produce equipment for the J-31 slowly but surely.

 

[MastanKhan]

Really?

150 millions kickback is a lot.

If this is, Pakistan need to run anti corruption campaign. If the top brass is taking money in weapon procurement, it do harm the spirits of the soldiers.

That's why so many people favor Imran Khan?

Hi,

And it is on record---during Clinton regime---when pakistan's ambassador Begum Abida Hussein asked about the lesser funds---she was told about the real deal by the state dept---. It is in her statement or in her book---.

 

[帅的一匹]

Hi,

And it is on record---during Clinton regime---when pakistan's ambassador Begum Abida Hussein asked about the lesser funds---she was told about the real deal by the state dept---. It is in her statement or in her book---.

Very disappointed to hear it.

 

[SQ8]

There was no Bhakhsheesh thrown in - Proof is in eating the pudding, it was well worth it. Today the world is seeing that the prices paid was absolutely justified, considering the tech we got, when we got it, and what we got with it. Today the IAF is upgrading theirs to the -9 standards, for US$+/-40m per a/c. So Original Price + US$40m = ?
So who paid less?

"The Mirage 2000-9 programme provided the UAE AF & AD with invaluable experience and allowed the UAE to establish in-country software development, weapon integration, test and evaluation capabilities."
http://www.arabianaerospace.aero/one-careful-owner-why-mirage-sale-might-be-no-illusion.html

The UAE's procurement strategy and policy, has been crystal clear from day one, and has never face any scandals. Yes it's true that ultimately it is the SC, or DSC, who decides what has to be purchased, but that is backed by proper studies, trials, recommendations, and terms & conditions. You equating us with the RSAF and why they bought Lightenings is not only unfair, and unjust, but illogical as well.

The problem in Pakistan is that PA and PAF were on two different pages. IF the PA had stood up for PAF, and treated it like it's sister service, rather than step-sister, things would have happened and the PAF would have been a very different force today. Besides, big ticket items are never paid in one shot payment of cash, but as soft loans, spread over "X" number of years.

How the Jordanian F16's were paid for, is out there, for everyone to see. PA made it happen, otherwise NS's govt. was in no mood. Things have drastically improved between PA & PAF a lot since the M2K saga, but the damage was done, PAF missed a golden opportunity.

Not saying the m2k wasn't the right choice, but I'll stick to my sources on the deal and you can to yours.. from there its agree to disagree

 

[帅的一匹]

I think its almost confirmed that the J-31 is being customized for the PAF. On J-20, I don't think the PAF will need it as there is no real value for a super expensive stealth strike platform like it. In the future, I can also see Pakistan using tech from J-31 to build and advance a stealth parts / equipment industry that would produce equipment for the J-31 slowly but surely.

Its the first time PAF has the opportunity to get upper hands on IAF. Don't miss the opportunity anymore. Anyway, we won't give kickbacks to PAF top brass.

 

[SQ8]

Its the first time PAF has the opportunity to get upper hands on IAF. Don't miss the opportunity anymore. Anyway, we won't give kickbacks to PAF top brass.

No, the Chinese don't pay anyone directly; but various middle men who promote Chinese equipment and goods have paid out substantial amounts to PAF air staff and that also includes many "heroes" that show up to television talk shows.

In Pakistan, more often it's not who is honest but who got the chance to indulge in corruption

To quote the words of the man to me.. who gave Pakistan the Shaheen missile and its true weaponised version : The PAF is the most corrupt branch of the forces if a ratio of personnel to corruption is taken.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Not saying the m2k wasn't the right choice, but I'll stick to my sources on the deal and you can to yours.. from there its agree to disagree

IMO the Mirage 2000 was sealed not in the early 1990s, but in the early 2000s when Dassault decided to pivot entirely to the Rafale. I'm sure the PAF would have entertained the argument of spending those funds on M2K-5 instead of Block-52+, but when Dassault pulled the plug on the platform and forced the Rafale as the only option, the PAF looking to LM was far from a surprise. At that price point, who else was there (besides Chengdu)?

 

[DJ_Viper]

Its the first time PAF has the opportunity to get upper hands on IAF. Don't miss the opportunity anymore. Anyway, we won't give kickbacks to PAF top brass.

Sorry, but I don't agree with your statement. You are mistaken if you think by having 40-60 J-31's, the IAF won't be superior. To face the reality here, the IAF will always have access to better radars, defensive and offensive equipment due to their relationship with the US and Israel, including ASC's (anti-stealth countermeasures, like advance radars that can "see" the stealth, etc). So will the PAF get a huge boost by having the J-31's? Absolutely. But that doesn't mean that it will have an "upper" hand. The PAF's doctrine is defensive only. So the best statement would be, that the PAF would build a much stronger defensive posture that would mean 60-75% of attacking jets would be at a risk of getting shot down. That is the real value of the J-31 (in addition to the Vipers and the JFT block III's).

IMO the Mirage 2000 was sealed not in the early 1990s, but in the early 2000s when Dassault decided to pivot entirely to the Rafale. I'm sure the PAF would have entertained the argument of spending those funds on M2K-5 instead of Block-52+, but when Dassault pulled the plug on the platform and forced the Rafale as the only option, the PAF looking to LM was far from a surprise. At that price point, who else was there (besides Chengdu)?

Sir, the PAF had an option of Mirage 2k's wide open in front of them twice in the past couple of decades. Pakistan as a country didn't have the funds to do a hard cash deal like the French wanted and are used to. So it fell apart. Rafale's entered the game much later, after the M2K's were already off the table.

Pakistan's economy is growing now, so I'd hope some new jets like the EFT's and J-31's can be inducted. They are much needed IMO.

 

[ziaulislam]

if PA thinks that it can simply modernize its strike core or provide decent SAM coverage and fulfill its objective without having a strong PAF than this is stupidity of unproportional magnitude

no amount of modernized strike core (even with decent SAMs) can face wrath of an air force armed with cluster ammunition

PA needs to sacrifice some of its needs to make sure PAF is armed well, this would mean at least getting size of 400 4th gen aircraft(a mix of thunders+f-16s e.g 250+150 combo in next 5-10 years) to ensure that IAF will not be able to get air superiority established within the first week of conflict. I believe even if this means that it has to sacrifice it new generation tank or new gen 155mm artillery for time being.

in front of 250+ su30 +150 mig29/mirage2000 +150 new gen fighters(rafale+single jet engines) paf will be in severe disadvantage(600+ 4th gen fighters)

the whole cold start doctrine is based upon superior air force

the Pak army strategic strike core concept is useless without air support

instead what i am seeing is spending spree by the army worth billion of dollars (new gen tanks, new artillery, new multiple gunships, new rifles) with PAF barely keeping up its thunder production on loans

PS
J 31 will be more relevant if PAF has enough base fighters

as the situation stands now, it seems PAF will have money issues to even keep thunder rolling beyond 150
should PAF attain J-10s? i guess the asnwer lies wihther it can get hold of used f-16s and or not
if it can i would simply stick to f-16s given thunder and J 31 concept

 

[SQ8]

IMO the Mirage 2000 was sealed not in the early 1990s, but in the early 2000s when Dassault decided to pivot entirely to the Rafale. I'm sure the PAF would have entertained the argument of spending those funds on M2K-5 instead of Block-52+, but when Dassault pulled the plug on the platform and forced the Rafale as the only option, the PAF looking to LM was far from a surprise. At that price point, who else was there (besides Chengdu)?

The F-16s were going to come hell ornhigh water. Those in their misguided or ill informed opinions thinking that somehow the F-16 or M2k deals were
Even remotely related are just that.

The F-16 is a platform that the PAF lives and breathes which makes it a simple choice to get more of.
However, the F-16 is still multirole and not so focused on A2G with standoff capability for the PAF which is what it wanted(same reasons why the Gripen was never considered seriously despite the uneducated ideas of some here)
The PAF needs a strike aircraft- then and today- the M2k was planned out to provide an aircraft capable of long range low level penetration of Indian ADGE to hit critical targets. Additionally , the french had agreed to provide a variant of the Scalp for the PAF as they did for Abu Dhabi.
The F-16 can strike but with limited ranged weapons and is not the most stable low level bomb truck.

The earlier deal was for the strike aircraft, as was the attempt after 9/11. However, the french wanted to stick us with the Rafale because they needed an export order and the PAF's stamp on it would boost further potential.

The PAF still needs a strike aircraft, but now that role may either be delegated to a 5Th gen platform or a 4.5 gen one

 

[帅的一匹]

The F-16s were going to come hell ornhigh water. Those in their misguided or ill informed opinions thinking that somehow the F-16 or M2k deals were
Even remotely related are just that.

The F-16 is a platform that the PAF lives and breathes which makes it a simple choice to get more of.
However, the F-16 is still multirole and not so focused on A2G with standoff capability for the PAF which is what it wanted(same reasons why the Gripen was never considered seriously despite the uneducated ideas of some here)
The PAF needs a strike aircraft- then and today- the M2k was planned out to provide an aircraft capable of long range low level penetration of Indian ADGE to hit critical targets. Additionally , the french had agreed to provide a variant of the Scalp for the PAF as they did for Abu Dhabi.
The F-16 can strike but with limited ranged weapons and is not the most stable low level bomb truck.

The earlier deal was for the strike aircraft, as was the attempt after 9/11. However, the french wanted to stick us with the Rafale because they needed an export order and the PAF's stamp on it would boost further potential.

The PAF still needs a strike aircraft, but now that role may either be delegated to a 5Th gen platform or a 4.5 gen one

Rafale is good, but way too expensive for PAF's budget.

Sorry, but I don't agree with your statement. You are mistaken if you think by having 40-60 J-31's, the IAF won't be superior. To face the reality here, the IAF will always have access to better radars, defensive and offensive equipment due to their relationship with the US and Israel, including ASC's (anti-stealth countermeasures, like advance radars that can "see" the stealth, etc). So will the PAF get a huge boost by having the J-31's? Absolutely. But that doesn't mean that it will have an "upper" hand. The PAF's doctrine is defensive only. So the best statement would be, that the PAF would build a much stronger defensive posture that would mean 60-75% of attacking jets would be at a risk of getting shot down. That is the real value of the J-31 (in addition to the Vipers and the JFT block III's).



Sir, the PAF had an option of Mirage 2k's wide open in front of them twice in the past couple of decades. Pakistan as a country didn't have the funds to do a hard cash deal like the French wanted and are used to. So it fell apart. Rafale's entered the game much later, after the M2K's were already off the table.

Pakistan's economy is growing now, so I'd hope some new jets like the EFT's and J-31's can be inducted. They are much needed IMO.

French is very snobbish. Date back to 1990s, we cant afford to buy Mirage2000 and instead they sell it to Taiwan. The French philosophy is that: if you don't buy my weapon, I will sell it to your enemy. A country can't rely on totally!

 

[MastanKhan]

Its the first time PAF has the opportunity to get upper hands on IAF. Don't miss the opportunity anymore. Anyway, we won't give kickbacks to PAF top brass.

Hi,

Yes you do---an air marshal or an avm receives a brief case

IMO the Mirage 2000 was sealed not in the early 1990s, but in the early 2000s when Dassault decided to pivot entirely to the Rafale. I'm sure the PAF would have entertained the argument of spending those funds on M2K-5 instead of Block-52+, but when Dassault pulled the plug on the platform and forced the Rafale as the only option, the PAF looking to LM was far from a surprise. At that price point, who else was there (besides Chengdu)?

Hi,

And the Rafale would have been the perfect choice for the Paf---a total coupe de grace---. The best 4.5 gen aircraft out there---and then the U S would be begging the Paf for the F16's---.

The Paf never understood how to make a deal---it never understood how to sabotage the enemy's procurements either---.

With the Rafale deal secured---the JF17 would have been given the right ew package and power plant in a timely manner and the Paf would have come thru with a smile on its face---.

Paf in its absurdity---it did not look at what the Rafale would do for them---it looked at as if the French wanted to sell the aircraft to save their aviation industry---. It did not realize that it was leaving the door open for a tier 1 aircraft for India again---.

First the mirage 2K---and then the Rafale---. Some in the air force need to be executed for treason.

Gripen was never a consideration---the Paf wanted to steal its working design for its JF17---and that is what the JF17 is going to end up as---a competition for the Gripen in the BLK 3 mode---.