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Used F16's - EDA 50 ~ 100 Available

From PT to Production Aircraft takes time, what is the interim solution?
There is a gap, what can it be filled with?
no idea thats the problem.

an interm solution would be to have a 4th gen bird in low numbers, and thats just more of a drain really so its not gonna happen.

things have gone so bad they will let it continue and will focus on defense (jf-17 blk3) and thats it.

oh and build up a second strike capability (raad2)
 
The first para, is how corruption cut off PAF at the knees, sorry to say.

And the second paragraph is questioning your statements, based on two decades old, half baked info. If it is not relevant to the topic, you shouldn't have brought it up.



So when you can't refute an argument, you resort to personal insults?

I am seriously disappointed with you. Thought you were a better man.
First paragraph already acknowledged
Second paragraph also acknowledged when I mentioned M2k deal and specifically abu dhabi. The rest is UAE force effectiveness and irrelevant.

As for the personal insults, considering that I only replied to a person who began with it - which you ignored because at this time I have not agreed wihh you on an issue and you seem to think its personal- I would call it unfair.

However, to cut it short- I am not here to make friends, not here for popularity contests unlike the other member who has to make up stories to stay popular and relevant- which is why I dont waste my time quoting or engaging him. He is prepared to sell his own soul for respect here, I could not care less if I find my account deleted tomorrow; I was asked to assist and I do, but this- this whole online "popularity" and "get along with all" game, I don't give a wooden nickel about.

I am here to learn and debate based on information I know and verifiable information I can learn here. Not because I require your respect or of anyone here, but because I love learning.

Now, as for the exact points you make- Go run a string by string search on my posts and find where I questioned the professionalism or skills of the UAE if you may- I pointed out that the M2k process and even the M5 process with Abu Dhabi had some commissions involved- I heard it from a source I trust, then verified it again. You also have your own experiences and sources- I did not ask you to gulp it down and convert, to add to it, you infact stated that things have changed dramatically and I have no dispute to it but it is still irrelevant to the issue of the m2k and the original m2k procurement for the UAEAF.

Now, if you cannot keep your emotions out of it and seem to have been offended and so on and so forth- please accept my apologies and lets not discuss further

@MastanKhan @Khafee @Oscar
All you guys are either senior citizens or title holders, you should be an example for us and rest of PDF community. We are often reminded to agree to disagree and move on, why don't you gents practice the same.
Mastan Sahib, i haven't had the pleasure of meeting you but since i have met Oscar, i can assure you he must be young enough to be your son. We all need to lower the tempo a few notches as every second thread seems to turn into a slagging match. All you three guys have vast knowledge in their fields with some of you with actual industry experience, you could all enhance our knowledge rather than showing each other in bad light.
Kindly live up to your standards and our expectations. Thanks.
Huzoor, you have a good idea of how I gather information and how I only look for the best sources for knowledge. Moreover, I have no qualms being told I am wrong with logic and relevance.

However, I am not going to debate with a whose only focus has been trying to rabble rouse people with ideas cooked up on drawing room gossip and then filled with hot air from whatever he can gather from his half forgotten education.
I looked up to him once, now I would rather enjoy netflix than waste my time trying to get in a huffing and puffing match with a man who clearly has a lot more frustration and need for aggrandizement than I do.
I am not here for a pointless "tu, tarakh"
Which is why I ignore most posts trying to bait me into it. But lets make it clear that I have zero respect or even give a hoot to what certain members post or think about
 
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First paragraph already acknowledged
Second paragraph also acknowledged when I mentioned M2k deal and specifically abu dhabi. The rest is UAE force effectiveness and irrelevant.

As for the personal insults, considering that I only replied to a person who began with it - which you ignored because at this time I have not agreed wihh you on an issue and you seem to think its personal- I would call it hypocritical.

However, to cut it short- I am not here to make friends, not here for popularity contests unlike that washed up used car salesman who has to make up stories to stay popular and relevant- which is why I dont waste my time quoting or engaging him. He is prepared to sell his own soul for respect here, I could not care less if I find my account deleted tomorrow; I was asked to assist and I do, but this- this whole online "popularity" and "get along with all" game, I don't give a wooden nickel about.

I am here to learn and debate based on information I know and verifiable information I can learn here. Not because I require your respect or of anyone here, but because I love learning.

Now, as for the exact points you make- Go run a string by string search on my posts and find where I questioned the professionalism or skills of the UAE if you may- I pointed out that the M2k process and even the M5 process with Abu Dhabi had some commissions involved- I heard it from a source I trust, then verified it again. You also have your own experiences and sources- I did not ask you to gulp it down and convert, to add to it, you infact stated that things have changed dramatically and I have no dispute to it but it is still irrelevant to the issue of the m2k and the original m2k procurement for the UAEAF.

Now, if you cannot keep your emotions out of it and seem to have been offended and so on and so forth- please accept my apologies and lets not discuss further
You honestly is appreciated, and I must admit you have given me a lot to think about. I will revert to you.

Thank You
 
It would be pertinent to mention here, that during the embargo years PAF had to pay 3 times the normal price, for getting spare parts from Israel.

This is justifiable, but getting the M2K was not, logic just killed itself that day.



Well said, except PA does not need to sacrifice it's budget for PAF.

When your politicians are corrupt to the core, just the right amount of pressure, in the right place, can do wonders. Hope you got my point.


You still haven't explained, how you put us and the RSAF, in the same boat?

My apologies, I am bit confused. Are you suggesting that Pakistan should have chosen M2K rather than F-16s in its purchase of first batch of F-16s?
 
My apologies, I am bit confused. Are you suggesting that Pakistan should have chosen M2K rather than F-16s in its purchase of first batch of F-16s?
No.

What I am saying is that once the M2K (not -5), became available, PAF should have gone for it ASAP. Secondly, Greece, Egypt, UAE, all maintain both F16's and M2K's for a reason.
 
No.

What I am saying is that once the M2K (not -5), became available, PAF should have gone for it ASAP. Secondly, Greece, Egypt, UAE, all maintain both F16's and M2K's for a reason.
They did, by all efforts. Ideas 2002-6, the PAF reached out to the French who in no uncertain terms told us- we have closed the M2K line and you must take the Rafale at xxx cost( more than what was offered to Singapore)
 
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They did, by all efforts. Ideas 2006, the PAF reached out to the French who in no uncertain terms told us- we have closed the M2K line and you must take the Rafale at xxx cost( more than what was offered to Singapore)
why's there so much love for the rafale and not the typhoon?
is it the possible complications with dealing with multiple countries as compared to one?
 
why's there so much love for the rafale and not the typhoon?
is it the possible complications with dealing with multiple countries as compared to one?
Yes, the typhoon is much loved by the PAF but the fact that it is tied to multiple western nations of which any could whim to sanction Pakistan makes it a lost cause as such unless some massive miracle can be pulled off diplomatically that has the UK, germany, italy and spain all agreeing to a sale and then the US signing off on the subcontracted bits and pieces in the Typoon(apparently there are some - correct me if wrong)
 
No.

What I am saying is that once the M2K (not -5), became available, PAF should have gone for it ASAP. Secondly, Greece, Egypt, UAE, all maintain both F16's and M2K's for a reason.

To be honest, I am bored of this diatribe and infatuation (not by you but some other idi...) with M2K deal and do not want to participate in it any further but I wanted to mention..

Pakistan did go for M2K.. but if you look at ROSE and its role as strike option, it wanted the D not the C.. with specific requirements.. I think you know certainly that a manufacturer can increase or decrease strength of a weapon station...
 
Yes, the typhoon is much loved by the PAF but the fact that it is tied to multiple western nations of which any could whim to sanction Pakistan makes it a lost cause as such unless some massive miracle can be pulled off diplomatically that has the UK, germany, italy and spain all agreeing to a sale and then the US signing off on the subcontracted bits and pieces in the Typoon(apparently there are some - correct me if wrong)
well my assumption is correct on the joint venture holding it back.
but the partners bae systems, airbus, and Leonardo each independently advertise the jet.
bae systems sold typhoons to the saudis and oman whilst the italians sold typhoons to kuwait.
and for south east asian countries airbus does the talking (except for Indonesia)
thats general info.

point being every jet has parts made from abroad and in most cases from the land of the free. heck most likely the rafale too.

back in the mid 2000's the germans were very hesitant to supply kit to pakistan (the type 214 custom demand being a good example) whilst we were alright with it as blair needed you for the wot in afganistan.

now i dont see there being a problem in procuring the eft. heck even the germans have simmered down and are looking for orders to keep 100k jobs for the entire project. now its just fiscal. is it worth several billion for 2 squadrons of eft? no back in the day(2005)? yes.
 
To be honest, I am bored of this diatribe and infatuation (not by you but some other idi...) with M2K deal and do not want to participate in it any further but I wanted to mention..

Pakistan did go for M2K.. but if you look at ROSE and its role as strike option, it wanted the D not the C.. with specific requirements.. I think you know certainly that a manufacturer can increase or decrease strength of a weapon station...
Each time you get bored, ask yourself: "why do the Greeks, the Egyptians, the Emiratis all maintain both aircrafts" ?

It will give you so much to think about that you won't have time to get bored. AND after you are done with that think about this:
As anyone with a half a brain knows, having a sole supplier is always detrimental to your health. The JF17 is a good step, but something interim needs to come in. Possibly leasing aircrafts, or having 2 or 3 PLAAF squadrons permanently placed, would be a good idea, if no new platform is up for induction till the 5th Gen come in.
From PT to Production Aircraft takes time, what is the interim solution?
There is a gap, what can it be filled with?
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They did, by all efforts. Ideas 2002-6, the PAF reached out to the French who in no uncertain terms told us- we have closed the M2K line and you must take the Rafale at xxx cost( more than what was offered to Singapore)
Yes this I am aware of. The second time around it was the French who backed out.
 
Yes this I am aware of. The second time around it was the French who backed out.
The summation of the point being made is:

1. The PAF F-16 procurement(much like the UAEAF) is independent of its strike fighter search.

2. The M2k procurement was not a technical abandonment as much as bad eggs within the Pakistani procurement process that facilitate the French government agents in their money making. It is not about independence, but you would agree that while you would be open to buying a $50 item from the manufacturer for $70, you will not pay $100 to a local shopkeeper who will keep $30 for themselves as well as giving the $70 to the manufacturer.

Additionally, where you would buy 20 of these with $50, now you are saddled with just 10 because that is the limited of your pocket
 
No.

What I am saying is that once the M2K (not -5), became available, PAF should have gone for it ASAP. Secondly, Greece, Egypt, UAE, all maintain both F16's and M2K's for a reason.

Hi,

My problem is that I have to talk about when things happened in my lifetime as well---and incidently--this lifetime is longer than some other members---even thought at heart I am still a teenager---and when I am sitting down watching TV---I still hear my mother's voice in my ears---" did you finish your homework "---and I swear---I have a momentary feeling of guilt---damn---.

For the M2K's---I go back to the 80's---Paf already got the first batch of the F16's---well and good---. When they wanted to buy the second batch---the welwishers tried to push them HARD towards the M2K's---.

Why---have an option---so that you may not get sanctioned---and yet if you do---you have an option---. But no---for commissions---kickbacks---and future job promises---or out of pure negligence---Paf generals sold the nation out---.

Now---you you have 1/2 of the 80's---and whole of the 90's where you could buy the M2K's---.

The real problem with pakistan is and pakistan's military is---that is has only been a military for around 60 + years---.

In the 80's---it was a military for only 35 + years---. It had no historical presence of a military---because pakistan was not a nation and muslims was slave of the british for 200 years---.

And in those 200 years---major warring tribes and ethnic groups were decimated by the british---those who raised arms against them in the war of independence---their ethnic groups were crushed---and many a tribes were not allowed entry into the british military because of rebellion and even after 13 years of Pakistan's independence.

As pakistan had no military prior to its existence---it chose to fall back on the glory of early Islam---going back over a 1000 years +++that is why we see the name of tanks and missiles of Saudi / Afghan origin.

As there was NO MILITARY LINEAGE going over centuries---pakistani warriors and generals had forgotten the concept of diversity in the arsenal---and even though they did not produce majority of the weaponery---they could not comprehend the importance of diversity in times of duress---even though they had modern day examples of Israel in front of them---and their own example as well.

But israel's example was more important---because it was created by europe and their loved ones still put sanctions on them at a very crucial time in the life of Israel---the French stopped the delivery of Mirages and gun boats---that made Israel steal the blue prints from switzerland and build their own fighter.

The army in pakistan understood it better---they diversified---but the air force---their learning ability was very small---basically negligent---.

I am giving you 22 days + 7 days old news---when I was in pakistan. Sohail Aman---is still living in ether---. He still believes his pilot is superior to an indian pilot---he still believes in man behind the machine---he still believes in wvr---. He feels no threat from and overwhelming indian air force---because he thinks his 77 F16's can over run the 300 + frontline Iaf aircraft---.

He has no concern or fear of the enemy---and that is a terrible thing---and for that---I again give the examples of the israelis---they always fear the enemy---. It makes them get ready in a timely manner---train harder---get the right equipment and keep open vigilence---because they know that their backs are against the sea.

When you want to judge my post---just remember I told you a year + ago that Gen Raheel faulted in not joining Yemen crisis---then 3 weeks ago---I told you what I learnt when I was in pakistan recently---. Their comment was " hamein samajh nahin aiyee uss waqt "---and now you know he is ready to go---.

I told you guys years ago---after abbotabad Osama killings---that Gen Kiyani was involved---and many made fun of me---now we know---he was deep down to his neck involved in that U S military strike---'thanks' to Hussein Haqqani.

And I say to you guys again---there is an inherent problem with the pakistanis---they genetically lack the genes that can assess for them what to do in a situation for everlasting threats---.

In the paksiatnis---the nations suicidal gene is the dominant gene---and not the personal suicidal gene---the reason being---Pakistanis are really not a citizens of a nation with a heritage and history---. They are a hodge podge of ethnicities that ended up in a certain geographic location.

Our heritage and history was swearing alliance to one ruler---one day--and swearing alliance to the other ruler---the other day---.

So---what does that do to us when we begin to chose major weapons systems---like fighter aircraft---we cannot comprehend to chose diversity in our inventory---because this fighter aircraft concept is very new to us---the importance of diversity has not registered on our genetical coding---.

For the army and navy---we have better understanding---because of centuries of usage.

This 1965 air war---has really ruined the minds of our air force---I wish that we had been thrashed hard---so that we had to look for reliable systems in a timely manner---.

So---after the 1st phase of M2k in the mid 80's---the 2nd phase started in the early 90's when the sanctions had hit hard---. And we all know how a " too honest ' of an air force officer destroyed the deal. It did not happen 2 months later---2 months is like 2000 years in military terms---.

Then the 3rd phase should have been opened after 9/11 for the M2K or the Rafale---. That was the moment of high treason of the Paf---not ordering an aircraft right away---.

The best of the best aircraft---the Rafale was offered---out of sheer incompetence and arrogance---the Paf rejected it---. Supposedly---when they went looking for M2K's in 2006 or later---" it was stupid to do so "---new M2k did not make any sense when Rafale was available---.

If price was the issue---then let us sell our nucs---pay off our debts---get an extra 100 billion dollars and setup the industry and forget about the war---.
 
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Yes, the typhoon is much loved by the PAF but the fact that it is tied to multiple western nations of which any could whim to sanction Pakistan makes it a lost cause as such unless some massive miracle can be pulled off diplomatically that has the UK, germany, italy and spain all agreeing to a sale and then the US signing off on the subcontracted bits and pieces in the Typoon(apparently there are some - correct me if wrong)
The U.S. pieces might be a result of BAE Systems' footprint in the U.S., not just in terms of subcontracting work, but some R&D work might also originate from the U.S.

Regarding the notion of purchasing Typhoons.

Italy and Spain's surplus Typhoon Tranche 1s might have been an option, but the T1 was optimized for air superiority and not much else. The UK stepped away from upgrading them, hence there's no Consortium-backed upgrade path, which would either leave the PAF to foot a bespoke upgrade bill, or just have a dedicated interceptor.

The alternative, i.e. new-build Tranche 3, cost Kuwait U.S. $321 million a unit. Pakistan would obviously need a long-term loan to back such a deal, and I am certain said financing will have to be repaid for more than decade. Yes, 40-50% of the cost is maintenance and that can be absorbed to an extent by the annual budget, but that is risky as well in that poor economic times could lead to fleet grounding (the budget can contract).

With such a massive investment, I have no doubt the PAF would want to configure the Typhoon at-will, but the Consortium will almost certainly exact premiums to enable that. So the PAF would either need to pay for that, or it'll need to secure MBDA Meteor, ASRAAM and/or more AIM-120s, JDAMs, etc.
 
@MastanKhan

Astonishing ruthless barrage of tirade , from Old member Mastan against every single brass of Pakistani airforce.
Well I think to great part there is certain over exageration and overly excessive in the comments.

First of all I think Pakistan Airforces and all the Military / Navy should be commended for timely upgrades in very difficult period between 80's and 2000 , itw as certainly a very dark period in Pakistani force. But they managed to to reinvent the whole force by great ambition and nurtured a force and Human Resources to develop some very technically Advance solutions in National Defence. While also being a valuable member of world community.

Example of Local Indegnious research and development:
  • Al Khalid Tank
  • Mushak Plane
  • K-8
  • JF-17 Thunder program
  • Very complex Strategic programs for Missile Based Delivery System (Multi Tier and Multi platform solutions)
  • Strategic Technology Partnership over decades Submarine Manufacturing and Frigate Development
  • Nuclear Power plant safety and research initiatives
  • Radars research and Indeigneous capabilities
  • Civilian Sector PIA , engineering sector to service Large Planes

So with all due respect I do not agree 1% with your statement that the Pakistani Military and forces have been not focused on a strategic Self reliance mission to develop our National Defence on All fronts.


Now , I understand , during a period of time we inducted F-16 , which is still the most commonly used platform world wide. Like many 100 of nations the plane serves its defensive role with Paksitan Airforce

reality.png



So when you view the "FULL" context of thinking and Modernization I can say boldly Pakistani Military / Airforce and Navy have all made great strides - THANK YOU TO ALL SCIENTIST / ENGINEERS on their effort
 
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