Used F16's - EDA 50 ~ 100 Available

[Readerdefence]

From PT to Production Aircraft takes time, what is the interim solution?
There is a gap, what can it be filled with?

Bro you have a vast knowledge about the forces
But my meagre thought is china has recently bought su35 from Russia
So now Pakistan can have anything between j11/j16
Although the learned members might not agreed to coz of bla bla
Sale to the third country but my thoughts are china if china wants to sell those
They can as they have the leverage against Russia

 

[MastanKhan]

How do the use of these two types by Greeks, Egyptians, and Emiratis or any other a,b,c or x,y,z airforces makes it compulsory for PAF to do the same?

A platform plus its weapons and capabilities are inducted to do specific jobs, if an intended platform can not do that job than what is the use of inducting it?

We can discuss Greek, Egyptians strategies later but lets look at UEAF..

do they use M2K for interception/air superiority?

Hi,

That is the height of ARROGANCE---shows how superior we think that we are---and some of those nations with thousands of years of military history are bunch of idiots---that they are seeking diversity---.

You prove me right about my previous post---Pakistan has no historical precedence---they are are clueless as yet what a lack of option does.

The nation has to be destroyed one time---for some to change their mindset.

It was with a very heavy heart. I know you dont normally act like this and this post is unbecoming of a poster of your caliber. Please refrain from name calling and modify your post I will reverse my negative rating. I would much rather reserve it for less nicer beings. You really did act totally out of character.
Regards.
A

Hi,

You are such a hypocrite---. Did you give negative to Oscar for bringing my family and profession in question---.

Did you even ask him---did you even challenge him for that---?

@araz

Why did you have to insult @Khafee on the open forum---why did you not pm him and asked to remove the content---.

You ought to be ashamed that you put a member like Khafee on the back foot on the open forum---not recognizing who he is---.

 

[araz]

Hi,

That is the height of ARROGANCE---shows how superior we think that we are---and some of those nations with thousands of years of military history are bunch of idiots---that they are seeking diversity---.

You prove me right about my previous post---Pakistan has no historical precedence---they are are clueless as yet what a lack of option does.

The nation has to be destroyed one time---for some to change their mindset.



Hi,

You are such a hypocrite---. Did you give negative to Oscar for bringing my family and profession in question---.

Did you even ask him---did you even challenge him for that---?

@araz

Why did you have to insult @Khafee on the open forum---why did you not pm him and asked to remove the content---.

You ought to be ashamed that you put a member like Khafee to shame on the open forum---not recognizing who he is---.

MK.
READ THE STRINGS OF POSTS AGAIN AND AGAIN. THERE IS NO SENSE IN STOKING A BURNT OUT FIRE. THE MAN HIMSELF HAS NOT GOT A PROBLEM AND I HAVE EXPLAINED MY REASONS TO HIM. YOU NEED TO KEEP OUT OF IT. MY RIGHTS ARE FOR ME TO EXERCISE AND FOR YOU TO RESPECT. FOLLOW THE RULES OR LEAVE OR BETTER STILL KEEP QUIET. I DONT CARE EITHER WAY. IDONT EXPECT A REPLY FROM YOU NEITHER WILL I ENGAGE YOU ON THE TOPIC AS I DONT HAVE THE TIME OR INCLINATION TO DO SO.
YOU ARE IGNORED.
A

Please all members take note! What has transpired here was unsavoury and unpleasant. The matter has been rectified and I sincerely hope that the members involved will move on in the spirit of the betterment of the forum. My apologies to all and sundry for some unpleasantness however I am glad the matter has been resolved. If anyone has still got and heart feelings please email me and I can try and rectify the matter to the best of my abilities.
A

 

[MastanKhan]

MK.
READ THE STRINGS OF POSTS AGAIN AND AGAIN. THERE IS NO SENSE IN STOKING A BURNT OUT FIRE. THE MAN HIMSELF HAS NOT GOT A PROBLEM AND I HAVE EXPLAINED MY REASONS TO HIM. YOU NEED TO KEEP OUT OF IT. MY RIGHTS ARE FOR ME TO EXERCISE AND FOR YOU TO RESPECT. FOLLOW THE RULES OR LEAVE OR BETTER STILL KEEP QUIET. I DONT CARE EITHER WAY. IDONT EXPECT A REPLY FROM YOU NEITHER WILL I ENGAGE YOU ON THE TOPIC AS I DONT HAVE THE TIME OR INCLINATION TO DO SO.
YOU ARE IGNORED.
A

Hi,

Yes---indeed---.

 

[el nino]

The F16s where a fantastic option in 1990 when USA was a strategic ally of Pakistan.

Today USA is at best a neutral observer in South Asia . SOME PAKISTANIS will argue the USA is actually leaning towards india.

That Makes the F16 fleet vulnerable to sanctions and compromise during times of tension.

IF THE F16 was not THE BEST that PAF has ,,,,,,,,then you can live with the potential of compromise

THE problem as is highlighted by Mastan Khan is PAF has put all its eggs on a F16 to save them during a short conflict

Regardless of how many blocks of Thunders PAF acquire the plane is too limited in range pay load and design to be much more than a squadron filler for roles over Pak Air space.

Mastan Khan argument is simple ... If the PAF cannot rely on F16 for above reasons and lack of numbers then WHY HAS PAKISTAN not acquired alternative options already if they are available.

In its current form PAF would be effective only over PAK SKIES and only for max of 7 days. There is no combat plane that can take the battle into indian skies and no combat plane that can support a outnumbered navy with zero air cover.

I agree PAF are asking to lose the next war or relying on international intervention to stop a nuclear escalation

 

[MastanKhan]

@el nino

Thank you for your post----. I think that I have been talking in very simple terms for general public to understand the issues.

One of my main issues is---when they say a certain aircraft does not bring anything new to the table---

Are they really able to comprehend what the extra numbers of SIMILAR capability mean---.

To me it means that they have NO COMBAT EXPERIENCE at all---and are just winging it left and right.

 

[araz]

The F16s where a fantastic option in 1990 when USA was a strategic ally of Pakistan.

Today USA is at best a neutral observer in South Asia . SOME PAKISTANIS will argue the USA is actually leaning towards india.

That Makes the F16 fleet vulnerable to sanctions and compromise during times of tension.

IF THE F16 was not THE BEST that PAF has ,,,,,,,,then you can live with the potential of compromise

THE problem as is highlighted by Mastan Khan is PAF has put all its eggs on a F16 to save them during a short conflict

Regardless of how many blocks of Thunders PAF acquire the plane is too limited in range pay load and design to be much more than a squadron filler for roles over Pak Air space.

Mastan Khan argument is simple ... If the PAF cannot rely on F16 for above reasons and lack of numbers then WHY HAS PAKISTAN not acquired alternative options already if they are available.

In its current form PAF would be effective only over PAK SKIES and only for max of 7 days. There is no combat plane that can take the battle into indian skies and no combat plane that can support a outnumbered navy with zero air cover.

I agree PAF are asking to lose the next war or relying on international intervention to stop a nuclear escalation

The problem is multivariate and needs to be understood. Yes USA will lean towards India and yes sanctions will come in a war between the two. But people are fooling themselves if they think snctions will not come from sources other than US(THE ONLY EXCEPYION BEING CHINA). For instance the French stopped the supply of Augusta 90B and ROSE mirages during the 2002 stand off between the two countries
The other thing to understand is the nature of the sanction. It will comprise of stopping spare parts for repairing platforms and replenishing ammo. However the people who think US will somehow electronically cripple our 16s is a fallacy in my humble opinion. This may well happen in the (purely hypothetical) case of a war between US and Pak or perhaps Israel and Pak but not in any other scenario. The reputation of US arms industry depends on the reliability of its equipment. Disabling equipment in a case of war tentamounts to effectively killing your own industry as No one will ever buy US equipment. So the results will be analysed carefully and a victory of a Rafale or MKI over a16 or the other way will be used as a means of demonstrating the effectiveness of your own weapons. So it is imperative that PAF treads carefully in analysing what it buys and how much spare stores are kept in reserve.
The problem which PAF faces is an appropriate platform at a manageable price in germs of maintenance manpower training and depot level maintenance setup. This may well be one of the reasons for slower setup of the JFT. THE 30 yrs of experience which PAF has in manpower, setup and familiarity is what makes PAF go for the 16s knowing fully well the unreliability of the supply chain.
Another factor which needs to be taken into account is where we are with generagion change. The acquisitions of our richer neighbour means that a suitable alternative needs to be acquired. The picki gs i this case from our friends are meagre or unavailable. So we atw left with interim arrangements. The real question is whether ot happens to be another platform of 4 or 4.5 generation or we wait till a 5th generation plat9frm becomes available and thos may give us some parity.
You also have to analyze the role of the Nukes in this whole picture. To date there has never been a fight between 2 nuclear armed countries. Although there will undoubtedly be one in the future we hope that better sense prevails and people back down before actual start of war.
A

 

[el nino]

The problem is multivariate and needs to be understood. Yes USA will lean towards India and yes sn tions will come in a war between the two

So you Acknowledge that USA will lean towards india

AND you think having the F16 as the ace in the pack is STILLA WISE move from Pakistan

Because Mastan Khans argument its bordering on stupidity and complacency

 

[araz]

So you Acknowledge that USA will lean towards india

AND you think having the F16 as the ace in the pack is STILLA WISE move from Pakistan

Because Mastan Khans argument its bordering on stupidity and complacency

He has his opinion and I have mine. I have explained at great length what the whole picture is all about. Read it first and then answer or make up your mind. However you make your mind up remember in acquisitions there is never any black and white. There are many shades of gray which are never discussed. Suffice it to say this is my opinion.
Regards

 

[SQ8]

So you Acknowledge that USA will lean towards india

AND you think having the F16 as the ace in the pack is STILLA WISE move from Pakistan

Because Mastan Khans argument its bordering on stupidity and complacency

USA leaning towards India is irrelevant in the week or ten day conflict expected.
Pakistan spent the last ten years amassing spares for the F-16 from every corner of the globe- as for the argument that the F-16 is the only egg, it is based on a hot air statement that purposely ignores the other assets the PAF has and repeats like a mindless parrot the various efforts made to acquire a strike asset. From the original M2k effort in the 1990s, to the second attempt in the early 2000s to the FC-20 effort, to others. All unfortunately sabotaged or abandoned due to lack of funds or otherwise. Ironically , apart from the Chinese- the only supplier willing and eventually comitted to selling to us has been the US once it goes past their congress.

I would suggest looking at the actual logical and factual merits of an argument, not just on verbose repetition of the same baseless accusations.

The PAF has published books, AFM has articles, and we have interviews which should be the core base for knowledge , rather than some hot air cooked up out of imagination.

That is how knowledge is gained and researched, not from reading one line and making an entire conclusion from it.

Once you have a grip on that information should you then venture into accepting "sources" and opinions.

The F-16 is one platform that is seamlessly integrated into the PAF doctrine and is not even on the table for discussion. There is a role gap for a deep strike fighter which the PAF has wanted ALONG with the F-16 to replace the mirages: that gap is still unfulfilled unfortunately.

However, roles and platforms are not one to one puzzle pieces , they are more akin to venn diagrams(which are ever changing according to the enemy)where a capability can be added to an existing platform to somewhat compensate for the gap. This is what the PAF has done.

So while it may not have been most efficient at it, it is in the right direction.

 

[MastanKhan]

. This may well happen in the (purely hypothetical) case of a war between US and Pak or perhaps Israel and Pak but not in any other scenario. The reputation of US arms industry depends on the reliability of its equipment. Disabling equipment in a case of war tentamounts to effectively killing your own industry as No one will ever buy US equipment. So the results will be analysed carefully and a victory of a Rafale or MKI over a16 or the other way will be used as a means of demonstrating the effectiveness of your own weapons. So it is imperative that PAF treads carefully in analysing what it buys and how much spare stores are kept in reserve.


A

Hi,

Plz give me credit for sharing this for 10 years + on this board---for which you had no concept of---.

Thank you.

 

[volatile]

An excellent debate to follow ,I like the fury and i like how there are conflict in thought process ,In the end all are patriots and well wishers of PAF ,coming to the topic and areas i like to point out is

Negotiation and settlements

My arguments are based on COld Start doctrine / Intl community intervention soon after capturing and inevitable Nuke strike / Enemy changing doctrine of surprize Nuke attack on PAK facilities / Also lastly there have been tremendous investment by India in improving the survivability in case of Neutron explosions.

After any conflict or even skirmishes a party who will always negotiate better or on their own terms is the one holding higher grounds or supremacy . e.g Tomorrow there are skirmishes or we see Cold start doctrine and enemy some how manages to gain decisive grounds thru superior armaments / air force and use it to bargain Azad Kashmir will we nuke our own land ? are we ready to go such extent ? If yes than there is a fundamental error in this strategy and that is showing your trump card on first move . Our Armour div has developed some sort of defense mechanism against aerial targets but real question remains where will be our Air Force ? 76+100 = 176 ,he who rules the skies rule the battlefield and he who rules the battle field rules the negotiations . East Pakistan 1971 is one example .

I dont know much of nitty gitties and im glad i dont know that makes me unbiased over specifications of certain plan ,my objective here is strategic in nature and in current scenario sanction prone planes should not be welcome weather Italy/France/US/UK . it's better to have low tech fighter than to have sanction prone ones . Personally my assessment shows F16 numbers shouldn't go above 100 (due to economies of scale and F16 is in the last stage of product it self) .

Regarding PAst whats done is done we cant rewind 1990 and M2K saga and personally J10 (my heart cries as it would have been the game changer as ZDK`s are and it has shown if your one type is down you can keep your readiness thru another platform of similar or little inferior specs , infact PAF is in love with these now as most of the time these birds are performing above expectation .

http://classicalchristianity.com/2011/07/24/salvation-is-a-journey-not-an-event/
Salvation is a Journey, Not an Event

We have better books and most honourable prophet we should have learned the lesson .

Traitors or incompetency or in our corporate world we call capability VS capacity since in every organization we promote the Yes man not the right man this is due to the fact we didn't study in 1900 as muslims of India ,As as a society we need to evolve and promote competency not Yes Sir `s .Rule of 10 is there always for 10 th person to disagree

 

[MastanKhan]

MK.
If anyone has still got and heart feelings please email me and I can try and rectify the matter to the best of my abilities.
A

Sir,

You should have used the EMAIL option yourself before you insulted a friend of pakistan and a very prominent member of UAE on this board---.

And for other members,

Anyone who tells you---that ELECTRONIC sanction are not possible---they are LYING to you---they are sabotaging your safety---.

Electronic sanctions on U S equipment is a reality---it is like daylight in a bright and shining sun.

When they can sabotage your cell phone---sabotage you laptop camera---sabotage your smart tv---just think about it---what does the aircraft has that it cannot be sabotaged electronically---.

If anything has a datalink---it can be neutered and will be neutered---.

 

[Darth Vader]

Which Came First, the Chicken or the Egg?
and we are Back to The Same Point ,
People tend to Imagine Many things
@MastanKhan Like Always Blaming Puny Race of Pakistanis

Hi,
That is the height of ARROGANCE---shows how superior we think that we are---and some of those nations with thousands of years of military history are bunch of idiots---that they are seeking diversity---.
You prove me right about my previous post---Pakistan has no historical precedence---they are are clueless as yet what a lack of option does.
The nation has to be destroyed one time---for some to change their mindset.

Thousands of years of Military History ? what are you even talking about ?
You Seem to Forget one very Important Thing These Same Clueless people were the one flying these nations jets and Training them , Protecting them from a far smaller Nation i think you are forgetting Few Past Decades
From the Known History to human kind Tell me one nation which didnt do blunders , Pakistan is not even a child in human history so Please Give them a break
You are always keep blaming them, answer my one simple Question , What gives you the right to Point fingers on Some other nations military , If you give taxes and are the citizen of that nation than you Can point that the corruption and use proper approach Go to Courts with your Proves
and other did you served in military ? so You have Proper knowledge if No than better is to Quit it and shut Your Mouth
because when you dont have facts and keep running around like headless chicken no Good Will come out of it

As Few Points Why Pakistan is Going will select f 16 in next at least 1 decade
1 Pakistan have the Proper Infrastructure to Support these Birds in case of War they wont need to wait
2 Experience Knowing the Limits of the Platform
3 Funds For Newer platform Pakistan Will be saving and adding Newer 5th Gen Bird, While adding the 4+ Gen Birds into there fleet in short Time
4 Pakistan Dont Need Twin Fighters jets For now Why 1st Funds , 2nd war time Availability of spares , experience and most important point the Need Which Pakistan doesn't have Pakistanis Major enemy is India , Unless you are thinking you wanna invade Antarctic and Fight against Green Little Guys from Mars Pakistan Wont need these birds
Few Squads of 5th Gen With 250 to 300 Fleet of thunder + upgraded fleet of F16 block 50 Will be enough to Stop any Enemy Even with higher Numbers with Good Air Defence
The only Benefit twin Get will provide in short term is Range , and Capacity , with more Chance of Survival if one engine Stops working
Pakistan is Already Taking a more matured approach to evolve thunder , upgrade f16s , Create Eco System which can Support and build Gets and save funds to Go for Other platforms when the time comes

 

[MastanKhan]

An excellent debate to follow ,I like the fury and i like how there are conflict in thought process ,In the end all are patriots and well wishers of PAF ,coming to the topic and areas i like to point out is

Negotiation and settlements

My arguments are based on COld Start doctrine / Intl community intervention soon after capturing and inevitable Nuke strike / Enemy changing doctrine of surprize Nuke attack on PAK facilities / Also lastly there have been tremendous investment by India in improving the survivability in case of Neutron explosions.

After any conflict or even skirmishes a party who will always negotiate better or on their own terms is the one holding higher grounds or supremacy . e.g Tomorrow there are skirmishes or we see Cold start doctrine and enemy some how manages to gain decisive grounds thru superior armaments / air force and use it to bargain Azad Kashmir will we nuke our own land ? are we ready to go such extent ? If yes than there is a fundamental error in this strategy and that is showing your trump card on first move . Our Armour div has developed some sort of defense mechanism against aerial targets but real question remains where will be our Air Force ? 76+100 = 176 ,he who rules the skies rule the battlefield and he who rules the battle field rules the negotiations . East Pakistan 1971 is one example .

I dont know much of nitty gitties and im glad i dont know that makes me unbiased over specifications of certain plan ,my objective here is strategic in nature and in current scenario sanction prone planes should not be welcome weather Italy/France/US/UK . it's better to have low tech fighter than to have sanction prone ones . Personally my assessment shows F16 numbers shouldn't go above 100 (due to economies of scale and F16 is in the last stage of product it self) .

Regarding PAst whats done is done we cant rewind 1990 and M2K saga and personally J10 (my heart cries as it would have been the game changer as ZDK`s are and it has shown if your one type is down you can keep your readiness thru another platform of similar or little inferior specs , infact PAF is in love with these now as most of the time these birds are performing above expectation .

http://classicalchristianity.com/2011/07/24/salvation-is-a-journey-not-an-event/
Salvation is a Journey, Not an Event

We have better books and most honourable prophet we should have learned the lesson .

Traitors or incompetency or in our corporate world we call capability VS capacity since in every organization we promote the Yes man not the right man this is due to the fact we didn't study in 1900 as muslims of India ,As as a society we need to evolve and promote competency not Yes Sir `s .Rule of 10 is there always for 10 th person to disagree

Hi,

In a debate---if there is no blood and gore---and blood splatters around the walls---that means---it was all kiss and tell---.

Second thing I firmly believe is---there are always those wearing your flag colors that make you feel good even though you are weak---they tell you about capabilities that you do not have---they tell you that new & extra equipment does not add any strength---.

Common sense tells you---that if you have 20 personal guards with 20 G3's & 80 guards with BOLT action .303's---and if you replace those 80 .303's with 80 AK47's---that your force will increase by 400 times---.

So---tell me---when someone says nothing like that would happen if 150 J10's are added replacing obsolete mirage 3 / 5's and F7's---then is that person a traitor to pakistan or is that person a welwisher of pakistan?