Used F16's - EDA 50 ~ 100 Available

[volatile]

Hi,

Common sense tells you---that if you have 20 personal guards with 20 G3's & 80 guards with BOLT action .303's---and if you replace those 80 .303's with 80 AK47's---that your force will increase by 400 times---.

So---tell me---when someone says nothing like that would happen if 150 J10's are added replacing obsolete mirage 3 / 5's and F7's---then is that person a traitor to pakistan or is that person a well wisher of pakistan?

I agree with you on replacing legacy fighters with something more capable in this regard probably 2 Gen head planes there are no denials but unfortunately like all organizations PAF also have Vision and Mission statements
which IMO is confused it self since these dont add each other .

Vision statement
"To be among the most respected Air Force of the world."
Mission statment
"To provide, in synergy with other services, the most efficient, assured and cost effective aerial "
http://www.paf.gov.pk/index.php

For all those advocating about 10 th Gen and 9 th Gen planes these two things Vision/Mission have made clear / how you earn some one respect ? Thru power and its projection ,similarly for mission statement again there are confusions like synergy/efficient /assured and cost ? so there is big confusion among these two narratives as well as ,since any strategy is based on vision and mission and strategy is the bridge between both of these in this case bridge is based on confusion /efficiency .In all management books the word use is effective and efficient and for me cost part just killed it .

So---tell me---when someone says nothing like that would happen if 150 J10's are added replacing obsolete mirage 3 / 5's and F7's---then is that person a traitor to pakistan or is that person a welwisher of pakistan?

I apologize im in no position to give certificate of traitor or hero to anyone as it doesn't matter ,My only hope is that some difference is created thru these discussion .

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

For years---10 plus---on this board---I have stated that the american weapons supplier would never allow its weapon to be neutered at times of war---.

Well those comments were made when things were more predictable---years ago---when conventional wisdom ruled. There were certain expectations---but the things have changed---. There are no ground rules for pakistan---.

Pakistan has so much negativity in the U S---that to put down pakistan and smash its face in dirt---the americans would willfully put Electronic sanctions on their aircraft when it wants to---and that is a given---. That was the talk behind closed doors to the congress when they were debating---why does pakistan need 500 AIM 120C's---.

Really why does pakistan need 500 AIM 120C's---. The only reason the approval went thru when the defence dept convinced the congress that they have ways to neuter the system whenever they want to.

 

[Tiger Awan]

The problem is multivariate and needs to be understood. Yes USA will lean towards India and yes sanctions will come in a war between the two. But people are fooling themselves if they think snctions will not come from sources other than US(THE ONLY EXCEPYION BEING CHINA). For instance the French stopped the supply of Augusta 90B and ROSE mirages during the 2002 stand off between the two countries
A

Completely agree with this.

an example from my field, Pakistan had a contract with France for fuel reprocessing of nuclear fuel ( which enables us to separate Plutonium and Uranium). The complex was under construction and French backed out UNDER US PRESSURE. Pakistan then asked to give us the minimum technology ie mixed oxide fuel (Uranium and Plutonium) and French again under US pressure said NO. and all this happened during 70s when we were buying Mirage V. We can not rely on France

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

Really---cannot rely on France---? They were put under tremendous pressure---. They put sanctions on Israel in the late 60's as well.

How about the Agosta 90-B's---the most advanced submarines of its time in asia---and the propulsion system for it.

In criminal justice system---there are 3 kinds fo crimes---.

1. Infraction-----a minor crime like traffic violations

2. Misdemeanors----mid range crimes----like fighting---minor theft and that kind

3. Felonies-----these are capital crimes---like stabbing---killing highway robbery etc etc----

Please let us not mix up the misdemeanor crime to a felony---.

 

[帅的一匹]

Hi,

For years---10 plus---on this board---I have stated that the american weapons supplier would never allow its weapon to be neutered at times of war---.

Well those comments were made when things were more predictable---years ago---when conventional wisdom ruled. There were certain expectations---but the things have changed---. There are no ground rules for pakistan---.

Pakistan has so much negativity in the U S---that to put down pakistan and smash its face in dirt---the americans would willfully put Electronic sanctions on their aircraft when it wants to---and that is a given---. That was the talk behind closed doors to the congress when they were debating---why does pakistan need 500 AIM 120C's---.

Really why does pakistan need 500 AIM 120C's---. The only reason the approval went thru when the defence dept convinced the congress that they have ways to neuter the system whenever they want to.

At the time Yankee found out Bin Laden lived in Pakistan, they didn't trust Pakistan any more. I was quite surprised back then.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Boy folks are so hyper these last few days nothing more then a defence purchase
Some F16 are available , if Airforce might have some interest they will seek it.

Do so F16 have contributed positively in last 10-15 years for national defence needs.

And J10B just was not ready in 2008 as it's engine was still being researched and improved

We have option to but 12-18 F16 but as most folks know , we did not agree to financial term
strictly business here


Let us review history what took place

• 2005 - 2006 -2007 , We had floods and Earth quake problem in Pakistan , due to this reason we could not get F16 as we needed to fund for quake releif effort etc. It was decision by Pakistan's Government to not seek F16 as we needed funds for releif effort

• 2007-2008 , we had political chaos , Lal Masjib issue , and Terrorism problems and not to mention political movement by Lawyers against Musharaf Sahib. While he did arrange for a J10B deal it was only a conditional purchase as engine technology was not ready , Benazir died etc so there was tremendous cloud

• 2009-2013 : Zardari's political Dance, where there was no real purchase, energy crisis prevented any real focus on defence sector. Gas shortages , Power shortages , Water shortages. Funds were diverted to some projects to revive power in country

• US offered some planes in 2013-2016, however once again , due to financial disagreement we could not purchase the additional 12-18 new F16 C/D. Note the discount on F16 deal (Grant conditional) , but Pakistan could always purchase the planes in open market

From a neutral prespective, it seems that Pakistan had some financial issues from 2007 onward not allowing for sufficient focus on a new purchase for Pakistan Airforce. And to some extent the JF17 program was improving the airforce at a modest pace.


Now at end of day , before we criticize any one we also have to take some level of responsibility that yes , we did had financial and other major problems regionally which prevented a large purchase for Airforce.

• We could not conclude order for F16 , in 2007 , We backed out of the order

• Then we Backed out of the J10B deal , engine was not ready 2012-2013, 1-2 year before actual delivery date

• Then we backed out of the 2016 F16 purchase deal

Fast forward 2017

• Some EDA F16 available
  
• Some possible talk of Mirage 2000
• Some interest in Typhoon
  
• Some positive move on JF17 Block 3
• J20, J31 more ready and flying
• French Mirage 2000, or Rafale or Tech collaboration
• Some talk of local production

So it is really is up to Pakistan to ensure that the funds are ready first
Also it is 100% responsibility of Pakistani Ambassador to ensure , sufficient updates are sared with US media on how Pakistan has successfully fought Terrorism and also take the case on different diplomatic channel.

• As for certain fugative who was later caught , I think Pakistani Government had volunteered any kind of assitance and the cooperation to capture key members was only possible due to Pakistani Government / Military's global cooperation against Terrorism

Pakistan maintains a steady focus to combat Terrorism


Postives:

• We did made 86 JF17 Thunder planes
• We got 12-14 Jordanian F16 modest improvements
• We did get brand new F16 C/D 18 Units during this timeframe as well

 

[MastanKhan]

At the time Yankee found out Bin Laden lived in Pakistan, they didn't trust Pakistan any more. I was quite surprised back then.

Hi,

I guess you missed out---. The finding of Osama was linked to Gen Kiyani, Gen Pahsa, Asif Zardari,---it was with their permission the action was taken---even though Gen Kiyani kept quiet---and I have written it many a times over here of his complicity in the action.

They had given between 10000---15000 visas to american operators. Gen Kiyani did not want his name to be brought out---he kept quiet.

It is not the american govt that is mad---it is the american public that is mad---because Gen Kiyani did not come forward to own it---.

Next---due the american military failure in the afg---they had to blame someone for their failures---so that the american pulic dumps its anger at someone.

Boy folks are so hyper these last few days nothing more then a defence purchase
Some F16 are available , if Airforce might have some interest they will seek it.

Do so F16 have contributed positively in last 10-15 years for national defence needs.

And J10B just was not ready in 2008 as it's engine was still being researched and improved

We have option to but 12-18 F16 but as most folks know , we did not agree to financial term
strictly business here



Let us review history what took place

• 2005 - 2006 -2007 , We had floods and Earth quake problem in Pakistan , due to this reason we could not get F16 as we needed to fund for quake releif effort etc. It was decision by Pakistan's Government to not seek F16 as we needed funds for releif effort

• 2007-2008 , we had political chaos , Lal Masjib issue , and Terrorism problems and not to mention political movement by Lawyers against Musharaf Sahib. While he did arrange for a J10B deal it was only a conditional purchase as engine technology was not ready , Benazir died etc so there was tremendous cloud

• 2009-2013 : Zardari's political Dance, where there was no real purchase, energy crisis prevented any real focus on defence sector. Gas shortages , Power shortages , Water shortages. Funds were diverted to some projects to revive power in country

• US offered some planes in 2013-2016, however once again , due to financial disagreement we could not purchase the additional 12-18 new F16 C/D. Note the discount on F16 deal (Grant conditional) , but Pakistan could always purchase the planes in open market

From a neutral prespective, it seems that Pakistan had some financial issues from 2007 onward not allowing for sufficient focus on a new purchase for Pakistan Airforce. And to some extent the JF17 program was improving the airforce at a modest pace.


Now at end of day , before we criticize any one we also have to take some level of responsibility that yes , we did had financial and other major problems regionally which prevented a large purchase for Airforce.

• We could not conclude order for F16 , in 2007 , We backed out of the order

• Then we Backed out of the J10B deal , engine was not ready 2012-2013, 1-2 year before actual delivery date

• Then we backed out of the 2016 F16 purchase deal

Hi,

You conveniently forgot the day Musharraf agreed to the day the earthquake happened---there was 4 years and approximately 12 days for Paf to have signed a deal for an aircraft---ie---before the earthquake hit---.

Any of you people---if your mothers or children were dying due to lack of medicine---you would be running out to get it the day it became available---and not wait for 4 years and 12 days and then the money to charity to be looted and plundered by corrupt.

Another problem over here is that they bought 500 Aim 120's---WTF is the Paf going to do about so many 120's.

Where the fck is it going to use the 500 aims if they don't get another 100 F16's---.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Well there will always be 2 side of coin , people who understand and work closely with Pakistan Military Government know the positive effort from our end, infact we launched 2 major offensive.

No one can obviously control "Tabloids" or sensationalized news outlets, on US side etc the only official channel we have is by virtue of Diplomatic ambassadors who arrange for Visas or other cooperative deals , or Military to Military cooperation for regional stability.

Obviously , we have such relations with multiple countries in region

• I think recently we did get some MRAP vehicles to combat Terrorism http://quwa.org/2017/02/19/pakistan-orders-40-maxxpro-mrap-vehicles-u-s/

So in general there is cooperation with countries who we have neutral relations with

• What plane will Pakistan get or not depends on really financial side from Pakistan

We do have various friendly nations who offer solutions , and plus there is also input from the Leadership in Airforce who have planned ahead on what they need to get for short term and long term

• Pakistan - China, COOPERATION is extraordinary we can't debate that even then we could not follow up on J10B order in 2008 plane was not ready or financial burden we had in economy in that time period

• Who knows may be Pakistan Airforce will close out some deal , we never know all depends on financial planning

• Responsibility also lies with Poor Tax collection system in Pakistan for not gathering enough $$$ yearly , people not paying tax or people not paying Agricutural land tax , is the real issue.

 

[Khafee]

Bro you have a vast knowledge about the forces
But my meagre thought is china has recently bought su35 from Russia
So now Pakistan can have anything between j11/j16
Although the learned members might not agreed to coz of bla bla
Sale to the third country but my thoughts are china if china wants to sell those
They can as they have the leverage against Russia

J11 & J16's are unlicensed copies of the Su-27. Russia, has made it very clear, that these should not be exported, China has agreed, and that is that. China is still reliant on Russia for things like aircraft engines, S400, etc. it will not risk irritating Russia.

Now as you would agree that the PAF has been looking for a long range deep strike aircraft, lets focus on what that could be, and will a new platform come, before the 5th Gen's or not.

Secondly, these new EDA Vipers present a new challenge, to be, or not to be.

USA leaning towards India is irrelevant in the week or ten day conflict expected.
Pakistan spent the last ten years amassing spares for the F-16 from every corner of the globe- as for the argument that the F-16 is the only egg, it is based on a hot air statement that purposely ignores the other assets the PAF has and repeats like a mindless parrot the various efforts made to acquire a strike asset. From the original M2k effort in the 1990s, to the second attempt in the early 2000s to the FC-20 effort, to others. All unfortunately sabotaged or abandoned due to lack of funds or otherwise. Ironically , apart from the Chinese- the only supplier willing and eventually comitted to selling to us has been the US once it goes past their congress.

I would suggest looking at the actual logical and factual merits of an argument, not just on verbose repetition of the same baseless accusations.

The PAF has published books, AFM has articles, and we have interviews which should be the core base for knowledge , rather than some hot air cooked up out of imagination.

That is how knowledge is gained and researched, not from reading one line and making an entire conclusion from it.

Once you have a grip on that information should you then venture into accepting "sources" and opinions.

The F-16 is one platform that is seamlessly integrated into the PAF doctrine and is not even on the table for discussion. There is a role gap for a deep strike fighter which the PAF has wanted ALONG with the F-16 to replace the mirages: that gap is still unfulfilled unfortunately.

However, roles and platforms are not one to one puzzle pieces , they are more akin to venn diagrams(which are ever changing according to the enemy)where a capability can be added to an existing platform to somewhat compensate for the gap. This is what the PAF has done.

So while it may not have been most efficient at it, it is in the right direction.

Agree on all points, except one. When Pentagon steps in, Congress steps out.

 

[Thorough Pro]

1- (in red) could only be termed as stupidity of epic proportions at best and treason at worst. take your pick.
2- (in blue) What will happen if the enemy gets the required numerical/qualitative advantage while we are still waiting for the parity to "happen" in some future date?
3- (in pink) Wise people hope for the best but prepare for the worst, only idiots rely on the first part only and history is full of their stories.

If anyone can't see that Indians are preparing for a decisive/final war with Pakistan, then nobody can help them.

Can any country in their right mind ever think of going against USA? But they still keep investing billions in military research, keep coming up with super advanced weapons despite possessing the worlds largest stockpile of nukes.

Military and weapons are not a medicine to cure conflicts, they are Vaccines to prevent conflicts from happening. It's not that we want to win our wars with weapons, we want them to deter the enemy from even thinking about it.

The problem.....
The problem which PAF faces is an appropriate platform at a manageable price in germs of maintenance manpower training and depot level maintenance setup. This may well be one of the reasons for slower setup of the JFT. THE 30 yrs of experience which PAF has in manpower, setup and familiarity is what makes PAF go for the 16s knowing fully well the unreliability of the supply chain.
Another factor which needs to be taken into account is where we are with generagion change. The acquisitions of our richer neighbour means that a suitable alternative needs to be acquired. The picki gs i this case from our friends are meagre or unavailable. So we atw left with interim arrangements. The real question is whether ot happens to be another platform of 4 or 4.5 generation or we wait till a 5th generation plat9frm becomes available and thos may give us some parity.
You also have to analyze the role of the Nukes in this whole picture. To date there has never been a fight between 2 nuclear armed countries. Although there will undoubtedly be one in the future we hope that better sense prevails and people back down before actual start of war.
A

 

[Khafee]

An excellent debate to follow ,I like the fury and i like how there are conflict in thought process ,In the end all are patriots and well wishers of PAF ,coming to the topic and areas i like to point out is

Negotiation and settlements

My arguments are based on COld Start doctrine / Intl community intervention soon after capturing and inevitable Nuke strike / Enemy changing doctrine of surprize Nuke attack on PAK facilities / Also lastly there have been tremendous investment by India in improving the survivability in case of Neutron explosions.

After any conflict or even skirmishes a party who will always negotiate better or on their own terms is the one holding higher grounds or supremacy . e.g Tomorrow there are skirmishes or we see Cold start doctrine and enemy some how manages to gain decisive grounds thru superior armaments / air force and use it to bargain Azad Kashmir will we nuke our own land ? are we ready to go such extent ? If yes than there is a fundamental error in this strategy and that is showing your trump card on first move . Our Armour div has developed some sort of defense mechanism against aerial targets but real question remains where will be our Air Force ? 76+100 = 176 ,he who rules the skies rule the battlefield and he who rules the battle field rules the negotiations . East Pakistan 1971 is one example .

I dont know much of nitty gitties and im glad i dont know that makes me unbiased over specifications of certain plan ,my objective here is strategic in nature and in current scenario sanction prone planes should not be welcome weather Italy/France/US/UK . it's better to have low tech fighter than to have sanction prone ones . Personally my assessment shows F16 numbers shouldn't go above 100 (due to economies of scale and F16 is in the last stage of product it self) .

Regarding PAst whats done is done we cant rewind 1990 and M2K saga and personally J10 (my heart cries as it would have been the game changer as ZDK`s are and it has shown if your one type is down you can keep your readiness thru another platform of similar or little inferior specs , infact PAF is in love with these now as most of the time these birds are performing above expectation .

http://classicalchristianity.com/2011/07/24/salvation-is-a-journey-not-an-event/
Salvation is a Journey, Not an Event

We have better books and most honourable prophet we should have learned the lesson .

Traitors or incompetency or in our corporate world we call capability VS capacity since in every organization we promote the Yes man not the right man this is due to the fact we didn't study in 1900 as muslims of India ,As as a society we need to evolve and promote competency not Yes Sir `s .Rule of 10 is there always for 10 th person to disagree

For another thread - but you have raised a very interesting point, how exactly would China and KSA react to a cold start attack on Pakistan.

Best Regards

 

[Thorough Pro]

How do we know India can't fight more than 10 days? What guarantees India would stop after 10 days and not finish the problem once and forever (or for a long time)?

USA leaning towards India is irrelevant in the week or ten day conflict expected.
Pakistan spent the last ten years amassing spares for the F-16 from every corner of the globe- as for the argument that the F-16 is the only egg, it is based on a hot air statement that purposely ignores the other assets the PAF has and repeats like a mindless parrot the various efforts made to acquire a strike asset. From the original M2k effort in the 1990s, to the second attempt in the early 2000s to the FC-20 effort, to others. All unfortunately sabotaged or abandoned due to lack of funds or otherwise. Ironically , apart from the Chinese- the only supplier willing and eventually comitted to selling to us has been the US once it goes past their congress.

I would suggest looking at the actual logical and factual merits of an argument, not just on verbose repetition of the same baseless accusations.

The PAF has published books, AFM has articles, and we have interviews which should be the core base for knowledge , rather than some hot air cooked up out of imagination.

That is how knowledge is gained and researched, not from reading one line and making an entire conclusion from it.

Once you have a grip on that information should you then venture into accepting "sources" and opinions.

The F-16 is one platform that is seamlessly integrated into the PAF doctrine and is not even on the table for discussion. There is a role gap for a deep strike fighter which the PAF has wanted ALONG with the F-16 to replace the mirages: that gap is still unfulfilled unfortunately.

However, roles and platforms are not one to one puzzle pieces , they are more akin to venn diagrams(which are ever changing according to the enemy)where a capability can be added to an existing platform to somewhat compensate for the gap. This is what the PAF has done.

So while it may not have been most efficient at it, it is in the right direction.

 

[ziaulislam]

For another thread - but you have raised a very interesting point, how exactly would China and KSA react to a cold start attack on Pakistan.

Best Regards

i dont expect much reaction from them.

its upto us to prevent that.
even within the current budget smart decisions should be made, instead of army(like vipers, more arterillery, more advance tanks) for THE TIME BEING more funds should go to air force, as on viz to viz bases its at a greater disadvantage, even if we manage to just increase the thunder production rate that would be a welcoming sign, used f-16s will be cherry on the cake, i dont see why Pakistan cannot use its diplomacy to get these

I am assuming we will not get more funding, yes if we have funding that buy j-10, new f-16s, su 35, j-11, Rafael and typhoon and f-35 lol

 

[Khafee]

i dont expect much reaction from them.

its upto us to prevent that.
even within the current budget smart decisions should be made, instead of army(like vipers, more arterillery, more advance tanks) for THE TIME BEING more funds should go to air force, as on viz to viz bases its at a greater disadvantage, even if we manage to just increase the thunder production rate that would be a welcoming sign, used f-16s will be cherry on the cake, i dont see why Pakistan cannot use its diplomacy to get these

I am assuming we will not get more funding, yes if we have funding that buy j-10, new f-16s, su 35, j-11, Rafael and typhoon and f-35 lol

The PAF does, (and rightly so) that's why I brought it up.

Completely agree with this.

an example from my field, Pakistan had a contract with France for fuel reprocessing of nuclear fuel ( which enables us to separate Plutonium and Uranium). The complex was under construction and French backed out UNDER US PRESSURE. Pakistan then asked to give us the minimum technology ie mixed oxide fuel (Uranium and Plutonium) and French again under US pressure said NO. and all this happened during 70s when we were buying Mirage V. We can not rely on France

To discount France so easily would be very naive. Out of the western suppliers, France has more credibility than anyone else, without a doubt.

 

[SQ8]

How do we know India can't fight more than 10 days? What guarantees India would stop after 10 days and not finish the problem once and forever (or for a long time)?

Because by the tenth day either we have a ceasefire or nuclear war