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US responsible for the Murder of Pakistani Troops - Pak Rejects NATO Probe

Today is December 26th. It is been one month now. :laugh:

Congratulation to Pakistan stand up !

Unfortunately, there is nothing about this matter to be congratulated on. There is nothing to be happy about, there is nothing to cheer about. We didn't win anything. We lost 28 brave soldiers. Ask their families if they're celebrating the strong stance of Pak.
 
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Unfortunately, there is nothing about this matter to be congratulated on. There is nothing to be happy about, there is nothing to cheer about. We didn't win anything. We lost 28 brave soldiers. Ask their families if they're celebrating the strong stance of Pak.

Their families appreciate the consquences response by Pakistan government unlike previous attacks. I know the lost brave soldiers can't bring back but the response is very important. I hope this will continue to make them straight. I don't know if their families will consider heavy compensations offer by NATO but one month sanctions is example of how we resist US pressures and Pakistan's long stand up in ten years of WOT.
 
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There were many mistakes on both sides; it would be unfair to blame PAF exclusively. Their main role is to defend the skies against attacks from the East. PAF does not serve this duty by escalating the situation on its Western flank.

both sides? what was Pakistan's mistake, may I ask? lemme see, Pak placed their Post there. We're sorry we got in the way of your attack helicopter. :rolleyes:
 
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both sides? what was Pakistan's mistake, may I ask? lemme see, Pak placed their Post there. We're sorry we got in the way of your attack helicopter. :rolleyes:

The reason I said that is communications could have been better on both sides. This is not to minimize the egregious mistakes made by NATO alone. I do not excuse those at all.
 
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There is no doubt that US is at fault in this incident and many other... But if somebody care to analyse there attitude towards Pak, specially after Hilary clinton visit, then he will not surprise why they don't give a damn abt PAK. What have done now should have done at that time instead. She was blunt while dealing with common Pak citizen and if somebody read US press of tht visit then he can understand wht they think abt Pak as a whole. Acc. to US:-

1. it is not only their WAR. It is ur WAR as well.

2. Enemy of Pakistan is not due to US.

3. If u are ready to give up quarter of ur country then fine we are ready to stop drone attacks.

4. and most blunt : If u don't want our aid money then we are not pressurizing u to fight for our WAR.

Most of the PAkistani says Mush got ultimatum and PAK have no other choice.

I think it is just face saving exercise, a mere propganda. The moment they don't recognize u as their ally is the last thing for u toremain with them.
 
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^^the incident was a blessing in disguise...
if you know what i mean.
 
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^^the incident was a blessing in disguise...
if you know what i mean.

and this is another popular belief in Pak. If u are thinking that

No AID money = No need to fight a war. then u are only thinking abt urself. It is American hypocracy tht they think they fight and get out this place without PAK. and definetly for Face saving they require Pakistan to show up to them again and tell

" this time I am serious and I am going to fight this war".... open my bank account plz. The reason is it is not multipolar world.

and to get this done they pressurize Pakistan by alientating it from international community. Like they are doing by getting waiver in NSG, then nuclear deal, then australia and today Japan showed up with so called " trade packages"
 
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Attacks on posts: Probe report reveals crucial Nato delays


The report, for the first time, portrays lack of urgency by the Nato officers in notifying their superiors of the unfolding late-night debacle.

WASHINGTON: A military investigation has concluded that it took about 90 minutes for Nato officers to notify a senior commander about Pakistan’s calls that its outposts were under attack, underscoring a lack of timely senior-level “override” measures to avoid deadly cross-border errors like last month’s air strikes that killed 24 Pakistani soldiers.

Once alerted, the commander immediately halted American attacks on two Pakistani border posts.

But by then, military communications between the two sides had sorted out a chain of errors and the shooting had already stopped.

The delays — by two different officers — raise questions about whether a faster response could have spared the lives of some Pakistani soldiers.

An unclassified version of the report, released on Monday by the military’s Central Command on its website, also revealed for the first time that an American AC-130 gunship flew two miles into Pakistani territory to return fire on Pakistani troops who had attacked a joint American-Afghan ground patrol just across the border in Afghanistan. (Crap)

The 30-page report, which expanded upon a telephone briefing last week by the chief investigator, Brig Gen Stephen A. Clark of the Air Force, also found that competing Nato and American rules of engagement related to border-area and cross-border operations “lacked clarity and precision, and were not followed”.

The full report alters and expands upon the impression of the inquiry’s findings created by General Clark`s briefing, which had stressed how checks and balances on both sides failed.

The report, for the first time, portrays unexplained delays and a lack of urgency by Nato officers in notifying their superiors of the unfolding late-night debacle that plunged relations between the two countries to new lows.—Agencies
 
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U.S. Report Faults NATO Delays on Pakistan Strike

By ERIC SCHMITT

WASHINGTON — A military investigation has concluded that it took about 45 minutes for a NATO operations officer in Afghanistan to notify a senior allied commander about Pakistan’s calls that its outposts were under attack, one of several breakdowns in communication that contributed to airstrikes that killed 26 Pakistani soldiers last month.

Once alerted, the commander immediately ordered a halt to American attacks on two Pakistani border posts. By then, communications between the two militaries had sorted out a chain of errors and the shooting had stopped. The delay, by at least one officer and possibly a second, raises questions about whether a faster response could have spared the lives of some Pakistani soldiers.

Officials “did not respond correctly, quickly enough or with the sense of urgency or initiative required given the gravity of the situation and the well known sensitivity surrounding the Afghan-Pakistan border region,” the report found.

An unclassified version of the report, released Monday by the military’s Central Command, also revealed for the first time that an American AC-130 gunship flew two miles into Pakistan’s airspace to return fire on Pakistani troops who had attacked a joint American-Afghan ground patrol just across the border in Afghanistan.

The 30-page report, which expanded upon a briefing last week by the chief investigator, Brig. Gen. Stephen A. Clark of the Air Force, also found that competing NATO and American rules of engagement related to operations along the border “lacked clarity and precision, and were not followed.”

The full report alters and expands upon the impression of the inquiry’s findings created by General Clark’s briefing, which had emphasized how checks on both sides failed.

Among the reason the checks failed, he said, were because American officials did not trust Pakistan enough to give it detailed information about American troop locations in Afghanistan, and Pakistan had not informed NATO of the locations of its new border posts.

The details released Monday add to those failures unexplained delays and a lack of urgency by NATO officers in notifying their superiors of the unfolding late-night debacle that has plunged relations between the two countries to new lows.

The report recommended nine changes, including reviewing and harmonizing all directives related to border operations, increased training and coordination, improved surveillance before missions, and more current information on the location of border installations on both sides of the boundary.

Most of all, General Clark said, the two countries must take steps toward resolving the deep mistrust that prevented both sides from sharing vital information about their locations and operations.

“The way to long-term peace and stability along the border is to be found in resolving the longstanding border disputes that perpetuate a state of uncertainty and mistrust,” he wrote.

In a statement on Monday, Gen. James N. Mattis, who leads the Central Command, directed the top allied officer in Afghanistan, Gen. John R. Allen, to carry out most of the recommendations “as soon as operationally possible.”

The episode, the worst in nearly a decade of fatal cross-border mistakes, exposed the flaws in a system devised to avoid such mistakes. The report criticized an allied practice, in place since at least August, of not divulging to Pakistan the precise location of allied ground troops in Afghanistan for fear Pakistan might jeopardize their operations.

Indeed, the report said that in October allied troops were forced to abort an assault on the same target — the village of Maya, Afghanistan, where as many as 50 Taliban fighters were believed to be operating — when they came under heavy rocket-propelled-grenade fire. Allied troops suspected Pakistani sympathizers had tipped off the insurgents.

In his briefing last week, General Clark outlined a series of miscommunications on both sides that he said contributed to the accident. But the report offered new details.

At 12:35 a.m. on Nov. 26, about halfway through the episode, a NATO liaison officer in Pakistan notified the night director in an allied operations center in Afghanistan that Pakistan said its troops were under attack, presumably from NATO aircraft. The liaison officer did not alert a top general in Afghanistan, Maj. Gen. James Laster, until 1:20 a.m., after the firefight had ended.

Before the mission began, General Laster had ordered two precautions to reduce the risk of accidental contact. He moved the ground patrol’s helicopter landing zone farther away from the Pakistani border, and he requested the location of any nearby Pakistani outposts. The list he received was outdated.

Pakistan has insisted that its forces did nothing wrong, and that they did not fire the first shots. Senior Pakistani military and civilian officials have accused the United States of intentionally striking the border posts, even after Pakistani officers called their counterparts to complain that they were under allied attack.

General Clark’s report acknowledged that a pivotal allied mistake was not informing Pakistan about the patrol. Without that warning, the Pakistani soldiers would not have known to expect allied forces nearby. NATO and Pakistani forces are supposed to inform each other about operations on the border to avoid this kind of mistake.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/27/w...istan-strike-reveals-crucial-nato-delays.html
 
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Pakistan disputes U.S. findings on deadly airstrike

Washington (CNN) -- Pakistan's government has formally disputed the findings of a U.S. investigation into a November airstrike that killed 24 Pakistanis, saying the bombardment went on long after it reported its troops were under fire.

In a letter to the U.S. Congress, Pakistan said its troops came under fire at well-identified border posts and that NATO commanders knew helicopter gunships were firing on Pakistani forces "within the first fifteen minutes" -- yet the attack continued for more than another hour.

"This attack was the most recent example of the losses Pakistan has suffered fighting alongside the United States to combat terrorism and extremism," the letter states. The strike has strained ties between Washington and a key ally in the region, and "an apology by the U.S. Department of Defense to the people of Pakistan would not be inappropriate," the letter states.

The Pentagon said last week that the incident began shortly after 11 p.m. on November 25, when a U.S. contingent came under fire near the Pakistani border in southeastern Afghanistan. Brig. Gen. Stephen Clark, who led an investigation into the incident, said a lack of trust between NATO and Pakistani forces led to critical missteps by both sides.

At one point, about an hour into the confrontation, Clark said the Pakistani military reported to the Americans that they were under attack. But when asked for their location, the Pakistanis didn't want to give their location up, arguing that the coalition forces must know where they were because they were firing at them, he said.

Meanwhile, allied forces who had the exact coordinates of where their troops were only gave the Pakistanis a general location of where they were, Clark said -- and because of an inaccurate map, the description the coalition forces gave was not accurate, he said.

But in its letter to Congress, Pakistan said the incident "has raised suspicions in the rank and file of the Pakistan Army that it was a premeditated attack and was conducted to undermine the sovereignty and stature of Pakistan." The Pakistanis say their border posts came under fire first, and that any claim to the contrary is "baseless."

The letter argues that "the complete NATO chain of command" knew allied gunships were attacking Pakistani forces by 1:15 a.m. on November 26, but kept pounding the Pakistanis until about 2:20.


"At this point NATO was knowingly attacking Pakistani soldiers," it states. NATO commanders were well aware of the Pakistani positions, it added.

Pakistan's response was sent to U.S. lawmakers via the lobbying firm of Locke Lord Strategies, which acts as an agent for the Pakistani government in Washington.

Pakistan disputes U.S. findings on deadly airstrike - CNN.com
 
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An unclassified version of the report, released Monday by the military’s Central Command, also revealed for the first time that an American AC-130 gunship flew two miles into Pakistan’s airspace to return fire on Pakistani troops who had attacked a joint American-Afghan ground patrol just across the border in Afghanistan.

So the bases were 2KM inside Pak border? or just the AC-130 flew in to target precisely?
 
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Inquiries and coups


Brian Cloughley

Tuesday, December 27, 2011





“Pakistan rejects US findings on deadly air strike” was a typical western headline on December 23, following the report on the killing of 24 Pakistani army soldiers in Mohmand on November 26. It is hardly surprising that the army’s first reaction was to state that the report was “short on facts”, if only because the Pakistani account of events was not considered in any way.

The story, now, is that Pakistan refused to take part in the inquiry, and, like all skilful propaganda, the yarn has a modicum of truth.

Pakistan was informed it would not have equal status in the inquiry, so it was decided not to accept an inferior position, as Pakistanis would be excluded from the most important information. There was no question of it having equivalent representation. Can you imagine the US allowing a Pakistani brigadier to question a US air force pilot who had been involved in the Mohmand air strikes? Or having access to the record of computer exchanges? Not the remotest hope.

At the head of the inquiry was US Air Force Special Forces Brigadier General Stephen Clark whose last job involved responsibility “for preparing air force special operations forces (SOF) for missions worldwide in support of the army, navy and marine corps special operations forces and USAF counterparts.” Just the man to be objective and totally impartial about the killing of foreign soldiers by a US aircraft supporting a special mission.

Here he is speaking on December 22 about the shambles: “in the background is a series of telephone calls from Pakistani LNOs (liaison officers) to their RC – regional command element liaisons to say that their forces are under fire. There is confusion caused by this because there is a lack of precision as to where this is occurring. When asked, the general answer back was, well, you know where it is because you’re shooting at them, rather than giving a position. So again, understanding that there was no – understanding that there were border positions in the area, people trying to do the right thing and nail down specifics so they can take action caused quite a bit of confusion.” (Google ‘DOD News Briefing Gen Clark’ for the entire performance.)

In spite of most of that being gobbledegook, there is no confusion about the essential facts: there was, that night, only one series of US airstrikes along the border. They were on the Pakistani army positions in Mohmand that had detected movement in an area in which they had not been informed there was to be activity by the US forces. So the soldiers fired on what they reasonably supposed to be a Taliban incursion from Afghanistan, similar to that in October that killed two Pakistani soldiers.

If the US high command did not know exactly where their aircraft were firing, then matters have come to a sad professional pass in the most hi-tech military in the world. These aircraft know to the exact metre where they are striking. The sensible thing to have done would have been to order ‘Stop!’, and conducted some basic checks as to what was going on. It is that simple. “You know where it is because you’re shooting at them” has an inescapable logic.

Then we come to the “misunderstandings” about where the Pakistan army positions are located, and I say, from first-hand knowledge, that the denial of this by the US is not credible. I travelled in Mohmand at the beginning of November and had a comprehensive briefing by the 77 Brigade on all aspects of operations. I am satisfied that the “coalition forces” in Afghanistan know the exact location of every post of the Pakistan army along the border. Later details from Afghanistan (from an Isaf source) and Pakistan have reinforced my conviction. But there is another side to this.

The suave and articulate Brigadier General Clark was asked by a reporter: “were you saying that when the US has given....information to the Pakistanis, the US operations have been compromised?”

Clark’s reply was that “It was US or Isaf operations were believed to be compromised due to that. And again, that was not the scope of the investigation, so that was told to us as part of the atmospherics within the Isaf headquarters on down. We did not dig into that; we did not validate it. That was just indicated to us. In fact, there was an operation on October 5 in the same region where, when they went to in-fill the helicopters, they were hit with RPG fire, so that lends to their mindset as well – so, Isaf operations being compromised by sharing that information.”

This is not altogether intelligible (although “in-fill” is a wonderful construction), but what comes out, loud and clear, is that Clark didn’t “validate” the important, the vital, evidence that information concerning US operations on the border with Pakistan is not given to Pakistan.


Little wonder that the Pakistan army doesn’t trust the US military and states, correctly, that the Clark investigation is “short on facts”.

And while we’re on the subject of fairy stories, I’ll tell you that there is not going to be an army coup. Apart from the fact that Gen Kayani has made it quite clear for many years that he will not involve the army in anti-constitutional antics, he would be somewhat unwise to take over the country in the state it’s in. And all the politicians’ hysteria and media hype to the contrary is ludicrous. As Brigadier General Clark said in his comical media foray: it’s all “part of the atmospherics” that “lends to their mindset”.



The writer is a South Asian affairs analyst. Website is www.beecluff.com





Inquiries and coups - Brian Cloughley
 
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...........An unclassified version of the report, released Monday by the military’s Central Command, also revealed for the first time that an American AC-130 gunship flew two miles into Pakistan’s airspace to return fire on Pakistani troops who had attacked a joint American-Afghan ground patrol just across the border in Afghanistan.

So the bases were 2KM inside Pak border? or just the AC-130 flew in to target precisely?

The bases were 200m inside the border. The flightpath of the AC-130 around the targets it engaged took it in a circular path around them on all sides per its SOP.
 
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The arrogance that the Americans have displayed in their report just adds fuel to the fire and their supply routes will remain shut no bones for the rabid dogs to chew on
 
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Attacks on posts: Probe report reveals crucial Nato delays


The report, for the first time, portrays lack of urgency by the Nato officers in notifying their superiors of the unfolding late-night debacle.

WASHINGTON: A military investigation has concluded that it took about 90 minutes for Nato officers to notify a senior commander about Pakistan’s calls that its outposts were under attack, underscoring a lack of timely senior-level “override” measures to avoid deadly cross-border errors like last month’s air strikes that killed 24 Pakistani soldiers.

Once alerted, the commander immediately halted American attacks on two Pakistani border posts.

But by then, military communications between the two sides had sorted out a chain of errors and the shooting had already stopped.

The delays — by two different officers — raise questions about whether a faster response could have spared the lives of some Pakistani soldiers.

An unclassified version of the report, released on Monday by the military’s Central Command on its website, also revealed for the first time that an American AC-130 gunship flew two miles into Pakistani territory to return fire on Pakistani troops who had attacked a joint American-Afghan ground patrol just across the border in Afghanistan. (Crap)

The 30-page report, which expanded upon a telephone briefing last week by the chief investigator, Brig Gen Stephen A. Clark of the Air Force, also found that competing Nato and American rules of engagement related to border-area and cross-border operations “lacked clarity and precision, and were not followed”.

The full report alters and expands upon the impression of the inquiry’s findings created by General Clark`s briefing, which had stressed how checks and balances on both sides failed.

The report, for the first time, portrays unexplained delays and a lack of urgency by Nato officers in notifying their superiors of the unfolding late-night debacle that plunged relations between the two countries to new lows.—Agencies
Yeah - why would the US/NATO rednecks respond 'promptly' when receiving calls about 'Pakistan soldiers coming under US/NATO attack', its just '****'s dying', who cares about them ...
 
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