US plays 'genocide' card to pressure Turkey on NATO missile system

[Mehmet]

My name is Mehmet not your stereo type name. I can complain as much as I like since YOU admitted that you would COMMIT GENOCIDE on the Turks if you can. And your showing me Russian TV with a very dedicated anti-Turk bastard (who is virtually frothing every time he claims Turks are evil) who claims he has been in Turkey and openly speaks to Turks who think your so called genocide is real? Do you know how many flaws this bastard commits in his first sentence? His words are complete garbage I challenge that bastard to step inside Turkey and see what happens when even the old ladies beat the crap out of him

LOL as the guy who you state should be fired plainly and clearly states, Turkey will never accept a third country deciding upon it's past when it has over a million documents in it's possession that show that no genocide was committed, Armenians were killed but not in the number your side is claiming.

Since your all begging for outside nations to help Armenia is her struggle against Turkey then by all rights Turkey has the right to judge Armenia's actions at best as an excuse to permanently close the border to Armenia or at worst consider it an act of war considering that for Turkey it is Turks who were slaughtered wholesale in the past and not Armenians so the slander of a nation for political points will not be seen kindly.

Let us not forget that Russia prior to Turkey's stance on Israel was strongly anti-Turk and this is plainly demonstrated here as the reported does not allow neutral reporting but rather then question why Turks do not see a genocide having occurred he instead gives strength to the anti-Turk bastard by questioning directly to the Turkish representative that no this was a genocide how else can you call it anything else?

Do you know that over 40 percent of Russians are not aware or believe the so called Armenian genocide? so your campaign of Turkish slander and reviving the dead treaty of sevres is auto failing. Beware Armenians the regions stability is locked to the abandonment of the treaty of Sevres and an attempt to revive will consume your nation in war as the giants of Turkey, Britain, Russia and France seek to redefine Turkey's borders.

It is also interesting that you do not say anything to your Russian friends who printed the Armenian Soviet Encyclopedia back in 1965 to turn Armenian desire for independence and the fact they were conquered by the Soviets into blind rage against Turks.

Did you ever hear of the Assyrian or Greek genocide back in the 60s or the 70s? but today we hear about them and we are told that they for all this time have existed as separate claims under the so called Armenian genocide umbrella and just like this your genocide is also a fabricated story that has hundreds of historical flaws.

Where is Talat Pasha's supposed documents and telegrams that you all claim is proof of the intent of genocide? convenient that they got lost eh? and just about the time when carbon dating technology started become reality.

Did you forget how the falsified blue book was supposedly found (by an Armenian historian who found it under his chair at an opera LMAO!)

 

[Meengla]

Armenia should seek a token apology from Turkey which should be granted by Turkey. I really think both countries need to move on. Atrocities were widespread in wars--they still are. Especially brutal were both WW 1 and II. Nations/Empires were cornered and/or utterly opportunistic during the two Great Wars and so genocides and atrocities were common.
Turkey too was an imperialist power and no amount of claims like Turkey was a just governance of Arabs or Armenians citizens can hide that freedom and self governance were the fundamental rights of Arabs, Armenians etc. They had a right to rebel. This is not singling out the Turkey of pre 1920-era. Indeed, the Brits and the Russian empires too were on the wrong side of history.
As Abu Z. says above, 'prioritize'. Turkey is a rising power. Armenia will commit a big blunder if it goes too far in humiliating Turkey. Armenia simply cannot and should not count on foreign alliances with Americans or Russians or whoever--least of all Iran--to come to its active aid.
I hope the leadership of Armenia and Turkey are better than that of the imbecile political class of India and Pakistan who have condemned 1 billion+ people of the sub-continent to perpetual conflicts and conflicts over 'historic wrongs' done by and to each other.In the immortal words of Dawn.com's Javed Naqvi: Indians and Pakistanis are not intelligent enough to make peace with each other.
Again, I am not saying that Armenia should forget or forgive what happened. But a context of the WW I should be firmly in sight. And a context of future peace dividends should be firmly in sight.
(Sorry for my dense sentences here--denser than usual--it is very early in morning here and no coffee yet).

 

[PacificBeach]

Turkey was a just governance of Arabs or Armenians citizens can hide that freedom and self governance were the fundamental rights of Arabs, Armenians etc. They had a right to rebel.

Brother there is no such thing as "a right to rebel". However there exists situations in which a rebellion would be justified of course... Approximately %40 of California is Hispanics. Do they have a right to rebel? A good portion of Texans would like nothing more a secession from the union Do you think they will be allowed to do that?

Especially for Muslims, as long as the ruler is just and governing with respect to principles of Islam, we have to obey... period. If he blatantly does not, then he has to replaced. We can not just let the Ummah be divided with whims and desires of people. If we do, we end up with the situation we are in now...

and also how does rebellion scheme work when people of different ethnicity live together in a city or region?

 

[Meengla]

@PacificBeach,
This is going to start to get 'off topic' but I think I must share my general thoughts about 'freedom', 'independence', 'right of self determination', at least briefly here.
I have to say that 'right to rebel' is perhaps a too loose and 'loaded' term to be used without elaboration. I will attempt a one here. I am still not sure if I can agree with your ideas about ruling 'with respects to the principles of Islam' etc. Armenians were not Muslims. Arabs were not Turks. You may think that the Ottoman Turks were entitled to rule other linguist, ethnic, or religious groups because of various reasons but those subjects may not, rightly, agree with your reasoning.
I have always thought that Arabs had the right to rise up against the Ottoman rule--especially around in early 20th century against an imploding and sick Ottoman Empire--despite sharing the same religion. Similarly, Armenians were too different from the Turks.
The Ottomans were imperial. Like the Russians or the Brits around WWI. Today Americans are imperials. The 'sole Superpower'. There is no hiding that.
My stress is on rejection of imperialism under any guise. While I have not fully thought through all aspects I think I can probably support a Hispanic California breaking away from the United States IF the majority of the population there decides to do so. I think, in the same vein, I can support even a Baluchistan separate from Pakistan if the majority decides to break away. Similarly I think Kashmir can be independent. And similarly a free Kurdistan....

Will this world model lead to anarchy? Probably, in the short term. But then what are all these 200+ countries of the world, as we know them? Look at their histories. NONE of them are like the laws of physics. All these are man-made boundaries. Made by powerful, persuasive human beings and armies. If there are 200 countries now then there can be 2000 'countries' tomorrow. So long as the 'paradigm' shift to allow human being its dignity then there is no harm in allowing more countries in this world. Nothing is sacred to me except freedom and independence. All nation-states as we know it are too-new to be made into some divine guidelines.

I will expound on these thoughts more.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

Sir,

For you it does not----but how about them---and who is to judge for ancient history---. How about the genocide against the blacks in africa---how about the slave trade and the slave traders---.

How about the genocide in iraq in the 2003 war---or the genocide in afghanistan from 2002 till now---close to a million afghans killed here---close to a million and a half muslims killed in iraq- in the name of war---in the name of war on terror---.

In the sub-continent during british conquest---whole cities population massacred by the east india company soldiers---who should pay for those war crimes---.

The muslim population of spain executed after the victory of Ferdinand and Isabella in the 1400's---spain---ruled by muslims for 700 years---and within years after the christian conquest---no muslims found alive in spain----the jews talk about being persecuted----the jews a small minority in spain----what happened to the huge majority of muslims in spain after they were defeated---what happened to that christian church catholic / papal sanctioned genocide---.

what about the native Americans in modern day U.S. ??

we could keep going on and on about it


year is now 2011; world faces several new challenges. Leave history to the historians, not to politicans trying to win political mileage

 

[Mehmet]

@PacificBeach,
This is going to start to get 'off topic' but I think I must share my general thoughts about 'freedom', 'independence', 'right of self determination', at least briefly here.
I have to say that 'right to rebel' is perhaps a too loose and 'loaded' term to be used without elaboration. I will attempt a one here. I am still not sure if I can agree with your ideas about ruling 'with respects to the principles of Islam' etc. Armenians were not Muslims. Arabs were not Turks. You may think that the Ottoman Turks were entitled to rule other linguist, ethnic, or religious groups because of various reasons but those subjects may not, rightly, agree with your reasoning.
I have always thought that Arabs had the right to rise up against the Ottoman rule--especially around in early 20th century against an imploding and sick Ottoman Empire--despite sharing the same religion. Similarly, Armenians were too different from the Turks.
The Ottomans were imperial. Like the Russians or the Brits around WWI. Today Americans are imperials. The 'sole Superpower'. There is no hiding that.
My stress is on rejection of imperialism under any guise. While I have not fully thought through all aspects I think I can probably support a Hispanic California breaking away from the United States IF the majority of the population there decides to do so. I think, in the same vein, I can support even a Baluchistan separate from Pakistan if the majority decides to break away. Similarly I think Kashmir can be independent. And similarly a free Kurdistan....

Will this world model lead to anarchy? Probably, in the short term. But then what are all these 200+ countries of the world, as we know them? Look at their histories. NONE of them are like the laws of physics. All these are man-made boundaries. Made by powerful, persuasive human beings and armies. If there are 200 countries now then there can be 2000 'countries' tomorrow. So long as the 'paradigm' shift to allow human being its dignity then there is no harm in allowing more countries in this world. Nothing is sacred to me except freedom and independence. All nation-states as we know it are too-new to be made into some divine guidelines.

I will expound on these thoughts more.

The rise of nationalism during world war 1 caused great amount of loss to the Ottoman empire, we must remember that the concept of self rule although it existed for centuries before world war 1 did not exist in such a strong state before or since it, prior to the Ottoman empire's conquest of the lands in it's domain the Arabs, Greeks. Armenians and many other ethnic groups existed as micro states or as already subsumed members of another power.

While imperialism is definitely wrong today and empires of the future will be empires of influence; not conquest, the Ottoman empire did nothing wrong in the days when empires of conquest were the norm where every ethnicity was attempting to or dreaming of creating their own empire.

Towards the end of the Ottoman empire and in retrospect I can comfortably say that groups such as Armenians, Greeks and Arabs had the right of self governance however the Ottoman empire who had for centuries administered the judicial and administrative functions of the lands in question had the right to defend it from both external threats and from internal rebellions. Remember that the UN did not exist prior to world war 2 therefore their was no legal precedence to claim that the invasion of land and conquest by a more powerful group of people was illegal.

Let us also not forget that the political entities of modern day Greece and Armenia and many of the Arabic nations today did not exist prior to their secession from the Ottoman empire these newly formed nations could have been reconquered legally given that they did not exist prior in history, remember that throughout history when a political entity is formed at the expense of the other it has always been seen as a rogue and often reconquered or absorbed into another political entity. A perfect example of this is the Confederacy who during the American civil war was only recognized by those that stood to benefit from it's existence and was considered a rogue by all others (all those who had maritime capability to remain in contact with the new world (Americas).

The Ottoman Empire (soon to be the republic of Turkey) greatest loss and greatest right at the time of reconquest would have been Iraq given that the British created the political entity that we know as Iraq simply to deny the Ottoman Turks in the future access to large volumes of oil and it is one of the causes of Iraq's problem today as the nation is composed of vast numbers of different ethnicities thrown together without any thought of future interaction at the time by the British.

 

[Mehmet]

Still waiting for Armenians to reply to my post that I made on the 25th at 9:11pm about where is Talat's pasha documents? which is a primary source of information for their genocide claims and which apparently constitutes undeniable intent to carry out this supposed genocide. As well as their response to the blue book and the story of it's discovery which can be easily seen by anyone as a fictional story. It was apparently discovered under a theater chair during a performance

They are usually very fast in responding, it is interesting to note that they have nothing to say when somebody catches them out, as I have done on quite a few other threads even though I am what people would still call a newbie to

 

[Azatavrear]

What the hell you talking about Talat Pasha's documents being the main proof. Do you really want me to flood this thread with information from archives from New York Times to court martial of individuals by your own short lived government after the defeat in WWI? How about eye witness reports, president's personnel statements, book, embassador letters, government officials, etc? No I wont because for the hundred times I don't want to talk about especially with little rat like you who is opsessed with this. Believe whatever you want I don't care, I am not here to prove to anyone about the fact of AG that the world has recognized but if I see you Turks talking crap about my people or put them down then I am your mama bear.

You want a answer kid? There is a old Persian saying: "Javabeh Ablahan ghamoushiss"
Fools deserve no answer.

Pad yourself more on the back, you are doing great.......Grow up kid.

 

[Azatavrear]

Again, I am not saying that Armenia should forget or forgive what happened. But a context of the WW I should be firmly in sight. And a context of future peace dividends should be firmly in sight.
(Sorry for my dense sentences here--denser than usual--it is very early in morning here and no coffee yet).

Armenia has shown tolerance and willingness to normalize relations with Turkey without any preconditions even though Turkey closed its border with Armenia in solidarity with Azerbaijan, which by itself is an act of war. The ball is in their court.

 

[TrMhMt]

You armenians are reall losers !!!

You have murdered thousands of innocent Turkish civilians durring WW1 with Russia and UK's helps. You are really shameless and the biggest liar. My grandfather was a witness of your terrorism durring ww1. His dad took his family from Van to Kayseri for saving their life. He was telling us what's happened? how did you kill people in cold blood. how did you kill pregnant women by cutting up their stomachs with a game named guess "is it gilr or boy?". Still we find bones of that victims.

I remember a few years ago we have found new mass grave area.The UE sent an inspector to investigate it. They were sure that bones were belong to armanians who murdered by Turks. But they were belong to TUrKS who murdered by armenians.

Shameless inspector said "this time we couldn't find but one day we will fnd". Maybe this happend more than 10 years. They have been diggind everywhere around southeastern of Turkiye. They couldn't find anything axcept new mass grave area and bones wich belong murdered TurKs ....

Sometimes i am really sad coz Ottoman gov. didnt kill you only expatriate to Syria. If they have killed you all, the world could be cleaned from you and your lies .... Expatriate to Syria was not fair. All armanians must have killed as guilty. That could be a justic and revenge for us........

 

[TrMhMt]

Little boy killed by armenian sniper. Martın was 8 years old. Murderers are still working .............

 

[JayAtl]

question: do you guys who say a well documented genocide never took place- think the Holocaust was also a hoax?

 

[damm1t]

question: do you guys who say a well documented genocide never took place- think the Holocaust was also a hoax?

question: why you are so idiot? you come here sided and try to judge our past, what do you know about ottoman history have you ever visited ottoman or armenian archieves, i dunno armenians but ours is all open for anyone, nothing to hide. Im sick of people who come here try to give history lesson with their limited knowledge or some google search..
i will sup up for you, so-called armenian genocide is a big lie, in that era armenians tried to stab ottomans from back co-op with russians to get some land, as a result they have been deported, they killed a mass number of turks in reverve they have been killed too, a systematicly genocide or holocaust never happened. that was a war term, no army or soldier ottomans had luxury to seperate for killing 1,5 ml. armenians.. however you will not understand its clear your aim to involve this

 

[TrMhMt]

question: why you are so idiot? you come here sided and try to judge our past, what do you know about ottoman history have you ever visited ottoman or armenian archieves, i dunno armenians but ours is all open for anyone, nothing to hide. Im sick of people who come here try to give history lesson with their limited knowledge or some google search..
i will sup up for you, so-called armenian genocide is a big lie, in that era armenians tried to stab ottomans from back co-op with russians to get some land, as a result they have been deported, they killed a mass number of turks in reverve they have been killed too, a systematicly genocide or holocaust never happened. that was a war term, no army or soldier ottomans had luxury to seperate for killing 1,5 ml. armenians.. however you will not understand its clear your aim to involve this

Armenia and russia don't want open their archives. They claims england archives say bllaahhhh bbllaaahhh and photoshoped pictures. I want to ask them, if you say that is happened, where are the dead peoples' bones? Why always we find bones of murdered Turks and mass graves of Turks? Since 1990 EU sends inspectors, they dig like earthworms everywhere at southeastern Turkiye. Why didnt they find something?

 

[TrMhMt]

I have only two questions.

The average human body consist of 208 bones.

The avarage human skull is 21-22 cm long and 17-18 cm wide.That means that the volume of a skull is 5,595 litres.

The claim is that 1,5 million Armenians are death.

Where are this 312.000.000 piece of bones ?

Where is the hill of skulls that is 8.392 cubic meters ? ( 8392 cubic meters means a volume of total 560 cars)

I need answers not empty arguments.