US offers help for next generation aircraft carrier

[Indo-guy]

Do we really need that many aircraft carrier? Acc are so expensive to maintain and it needs lot of protection. Instead investing on acc, we should invest in conventional subs, nuclear subs, frigates, amphibious landing craft etc which are more important and useful.

Indeed if we look at current scenario ....India does not need as many Aircaft carriers ....

3 are just good enough ! rather than invest heavily in one single platform ....we should add several more smaller assets like subs , frigates etc ....

I totally agree with you .

We need to draw a line and maintain balance in terms of all minimum military assets we should have within constrains of our economy !!!

 

[Indo-guy]

And all this time, you guys were so skeptical of the US. Just wait and watch...The US is a great ally as long you act like an ally. I hope India-US relations reach the moon and the stars. There is a great deal we all can learn from the US. Stop focusing solely on the negative and focus on their positives.

I seriously doubt that ....history is testimony to the fact that US actions are guided by their self interests alone everything else is secondary ....

Their actions during WW II and Post WWII , height of Cold war and till date are quite clearly indicate this . US has only one ally and that is US itself ...rest all are temporary exigencies !


At the height of WW II when Britain contributed men ,material , money towards Project Manhattan ( which eventually lead to genesis of Atomic weapons ) . As US realized strategic importance of these weapons ....despite being the closest ally, US literally kicked Britain out of this project refusing to share the secret of mighty weapon which it intended to keep itself ! Only when UK independently pursued Nuke project and tested first weapon in 1952 and as the Nukes become commonplace as Russia,france and China eventually tested their own weapons ....that was the time when US and UK re-aligned their nuclear programmes again .


This is just small example of US 'mean' minded-ness ....history is replete with numerous such examples ....


Seems you have not read history at all !

 

[Abingdonboy]

Of course there's no such thing as a free lunch however it seems the US is embarking on a very different sales pitch to India. They now seem to appreciate India values cooperation and JVs over off the shelf purchases and it's possible the new DPP of India has made the Yanks sit up and reasses their position. It's also possible they are now trying to pressurise India into signing certain agreements it has previously point-blank refused to sign such as the LSA and CISMOA, they've tried the stick (stripping certain tech from Indian purchases) but that tactic having failed (India simply went to others to fill the plugs) they are now trying the carrot approach.


Talking specifically about this EMALS offer, firstly excellent news it has actually been offered- thus had been speculated but not a really confirmed until now. Secondly the IN was interested in this system enough that they'd likely have gone for off the shelf procurement anyway- if the US are now offering industrial benefits to India- no matter how small, this is certainly a bonus- something is better than nothing.

Even though it's not mentioned, i wonder if the US would still be interested in a package deal wherein EMALS comes with other tech for the IN's future ACCs or whether the US is really willing to offer the EMALS as a stand alone sale.

 

[Dillinger]

Of course there's no such thing as a free lunch however it seems the US is embarking on a very different sales pitch to India. They now seem to appreciate India values cooperation and JVs over off the shelf purchases and it's possible the new DPP of India has made the Yanks sit up and reasses their position. It's also possible they are now trying to pressurise India into signing certain agreements it has previously point-blank refused to sign such as the LSA and CISMOA, they've tried the stick (stripping certain tech from Indian purchases) but that tactic having failed (India simply went to others to fill the plugs) they are now trying the carrot approach.


Talking specifically about this EMALS offer, firstly excellent news it has actually been offered- thus had been speculated but not a really confirmed until now. Secondly the IN was interested in this system enough that they'd likely have gone for off the shelf procurement anyway- if the US are now offering industrial benefits to India- no matter how small, this is certainly a bonus- something is better than nothing.

Even though it's not mentioned, i wonder if the US would still be interested in a package deal wherein EMALS comes with other tech for the IN's future ACCs or whether the US is really willing to offer the EMALS as a stand alone sale.

It'll be clubbed with the E-2, not aerial combat platforms which will comprise the carrier airwing though. The same thing they did with the French when providing the catapults. Its no loss for the IN since the E-2 is still the only fixed-wing long range carrier operable AEW&C in the world.

Although the journos need to start toning down the hyperbole and getting everyone excited.

 

[Abingdonboy]

It'll be clubbed with the E-2, not aerial combat platforms which will comprise the carrier airwing though. The same thing they did with the French when providing the catapults. Its no loss for the IN since the E-2 is still the only fixed-wing long range carrier operable AEW&C in the world.

Although the journos need to start toning down the hyperbole and getting everyone excited.

Yes I'd agree and, like you said, that's no major issue as the IN were very interested in the E-2D on its own anyway. I'd also say the US/IN might throw in a few S-70Bs to the package as these helos will be in IN service by then anyway. I'd be interested to see if the FireScout or ScanEagle or even BAMS were included in the deal as the IN has shown serious interest in every single one and has even been briefed on all 3 products. The IN might just get these indudvually in separate deals for the entire fleet and not IAC-2 alone.

 

[Indo-guy]

Now, that is a game changer indeed! With EMALS, IAC-2 could be a full fledged mini (combat) air force and project air power anywhere. FWIK, the initial cost of EMALS is high, but the operational costs are much lower than steam powered catapults. And they require less maintenance and fewer crew to operate.

The combat efficiency of the naval air wing would grow multifold, if they can have AEWACs and refuellers on board the carriers. The US has everything to gain in sharing the tech with India, because if India commits to this technology, it would mean not just paying for the EMALS, but also for the carrier borne refuellers and AEWACs (E-2Ds) from the US, since no other country makes anything similar.

Needless to say, it will revolutionize our carrier aviation doctrine.

Isn't it too early ? and too much ?

I think the news is too good to be true ....

anyway we need to seriously look into several aspects ....conditions imposed ....strings attached ....and most important US intentions .


we should not become pawn in Sino-US chess board to be used to check mate each other .

while it is natural for US and India to get closer ....

and the co-operation will be to large extent beneficial to India . Yet India needs to draw clear cut line between US relations with China in mind .

Any temptation to get drawn in US side as against China will be not good for India .

I believe this is the larger subtext of US actions which we need to read carefully .


I ma not saying no to Indo-US co-operation ....but India clearly need to maintain Independent policy .


Just as US pressurized India to vote against Iran using nuclear bait ....

US will not hesitate to arm twist India at any juncture ....

so lines of engagement needs to be drawn carefully .


India should not make itself wholly dependent on any country whether US , Russia , France or any other country ...


India should seek enough of help to make itself self sufficient as soon as possible !!! so any co-operation envisaged should not make us dependent or tied to any one particular country ....even if that country happens to be mighty US !!!

 

[Abingdonboy]

Isn't it too early ? and too much ?

I think the news is too good to be true ....

anyway we need to seriously look into several aspects ....conditions imposed ....strings attached ....and most important US intentions .


we should not become pawn in Sino-US chess board to be used to check mate each other .

while it is natural for US and India to get closer ....

and the co-operation will be to large extent beneficial to India . Yet India needs to draw clear cut line between US relations with China in mind .

Any temptation to get drawn in US side as against China will be not good for India .

I believe this is the larger subtext of US actions which we need to read carefully .


I ma not saying no to Indo-US co-operation ....but India clearly need to maintain Independent policy .


Just as US pressurized India to vote against Iran using nuclear bait ....

US will not hesitate to arm twist India at any juncture ....

so lines of engagement needs to be drawn carefully .


India should not make itself wholly dependent on any country whether US , Russia , France or any other country ...


India should seek enough of help to make itself self sufficient as soon as possible !!! so any co-operation envisaged should not make us dependent or tied to any one particular country ....even if that country happens to be mighty US !!!

I'm slightly perplexed as to why some people can't accept this news.


The IN has said they want at least a 3 carrier navy.


There is nothing particuarly out of the blue about this news- the IN has for some time stated they are looking at a 65,000+ ton CATOBAR congfured ACC design as a follow on to the IAC-1.

They've said they'd want fixed wing AWACS (and have thus been briefed on the E-2D twice AFAIK and the USG has even cleared the sale of the E-2D to India).

Bare in mind the timeline for induction is not tommorow or even 5 years time but ~2022-4.

I think a much more interesting question to ask is where will the IN stop? 3 ACCs enough for them? IIRC a IN CNS said that ideally the IN would like 5-6 ACCs in the mid to long term. And if so will the IAC-2 design became the standard for any follow-on ACCs or will the IN draw up yet ANOTHER design possibly larger? Possibly nuclear powered? Possibly both?

 

[Dillinger]

I'm slightly perplexed as to why some people can't accept this news.


The IN has said they want at least a 3 carrier navy.


There is nothing particuarly out of the blue about this news- the IN has for some time stated they are looking at a 65,000+ ton CATOBAR congfured ACC design as a follow on to the IAC-1.

They've said they'd want fixed wing AWACS (and have thus been briefed on the E-2D twice AFAIK and the USG has even cleared the sale of the E-2D to India).

Bare in mind the timeline for induction is not tommorow or even 5 years time but ~2022-4.

I think a much more interesting question to ask is where will the IN stop? 3 ACCs enough for them? IIRC a IN CNS said that ideally the IN would like 5-6 ACCs in the mid to long term. And if so will the IAC-2 design became the standard for any follow-on ACCs or will the IN draw up yet ANOTHER design possibly larger? Possibly nuclear powered? Possibly both?

If the up-scaling by DEA occurs within time then the propulsion system will change from the IAC-2 itself- or else it won't hurt us to settle for a JFK class carrier.

People are constantly expecting the forces to conform to their expectations, nothing new and Indoguy's one of the cooler and saner posters.

 

[Abingdonboy]

If the up-scaling by DEA occurs within time then the propulsion system will change from the IAC-2 itself- or else it won't hurt us to settle for a JFK class carrier.

People are constantly expecting the forces to conform to their expectations, nothing new and the Indoguy's one of the cooler and saner posters.

You really think it is wise to make the IAC-2 a CVN outright? I mean the IAC-2 is going to be challenging and unlrecedented enough for the IN and Indian shipyards WITHOUT adding a nuclear propulsion aspect to it. And also the IN can't afford to be sat around waiting for the DEA to deliver results. The design of the IAC-2 needs to be finalised sooner rather than later and there's no point in turning this into a QE-class affair where late in the day you're changing fundamental design elements and adding nothing but delay and costs to the entire project.

One thing that has occurred to me though is the enormous power demands the EMALS may demand. And as such if you want EMALS maybe n-power is the only logical choice you have?

One thing that has occurred to me though is the enormous power demands the EMALS may demand. And as such if you want EMALS maybe n-power is the only logical choice you have?

 

[Dillinger]

You really think it is wise to make the IAC-2 a CVN outright? I mean the IAC-2 is going to be challenging and unlrecedented enough for the IN and Indian shipyards WITHOUT adding a nuclear propulsion aspect to it. And also the IN can't afford to be sat around waiting for the DEA to deliver results. The design of the IAC-2 needs to be finalised sooner rather than later and there's no point in turning this into a QE-class affair where late in the day you're changing fundamental design elements and adding nothing but delay and costs to the entire project.

One thing that has occurred to me though is the enormous power demands the EMALS may demand. And as such if you want EMALS maybe n-power is the only logical choice you have?

One thing that has occurred to me though is the enormous power demands the EMALS may demand. And as such if you want EMALS maybe n-power is the only logical choice you have?

EMALS requires a butt-load of power. Unlikely to be provided by a conventional MGT or MGT+electric propulsion.

The induction motor requires a large amount of electric energy in just a few seconds—more than the ship's own power source can provide. The EMALS energy-storage subsystem draws power from the ship and stores it kinetically on rotors of four disk alternators. Each rotor can store more than 100 megajoules, and can be recharged within 45 seconds of a launch, faster than steam catapults.

So picking EMALS itself might seal the decision on the propulsion system. It depends though, if the PWR on the Arihant comes out of the trials without any hitches then it won't be an astronomical challenge since up-scaling the PWR is relatively simpler. But given how the MOD operates in terms of apex level decision making the lord only knows which way it will swig and how efficient shall be the execution.

 

[Lostsoldier]

We need allocate more funds ... We need to spend atleast 6% of GDP ! atleast for next 10 years ...We are not facing Pakistan any more which can be handled with 2-3% of GDP .. Its China and Pakistan combained threat is not just a wet dream anymore . They will attack India Any time soon ! And do u think Akula and Viki is cheaper to maintain or what ? LOL




It is not 65 or 71 . India is a neutral power . It can gain from all sides . We need to learn about American's Tech and Russian Production rate ! We must be cautioned for sure !

respected member one who does not learn frm past is fool

 

[Indo-guy]

Of course there's no such thing as a free lunch however it seems the US is embarking on a very different sales pitch to India. They now seem to appreciate India values cooperation and JVs over off the shelf purchases and it's possible the new DPP of India has made the Yanks sit up and reasses their position. It's also possible they are now trying to pressurise India into signing certain agreements it has previously point-blank refused to sign such as the LSA and CISMOA, they've tried the stick (stripping certain tech from Indian purchases) but that tactic having failed (India simply went to others to fill the plugs) they are now trying the carrot approach.


Talking specifically about this EMALS offer, firstly excellent news it has actually been offered- thus had been speculated but not a really confirmed until now. Secondly the IN was interested in this system enough that they'd likely have gone for off the shelf procurement anyway- if the US are now offering industrial benefits to India- no matter how small, this is certainly a bonus- something is better than nothing.

Even though it's not mentioned, i wonder if the US would still be interested in a package deal wherein EMALS comes with other tech for the IN's future ACCs or whether the US is really willing to offer the EMALS as a stand alone sale.

I really doubt that US has suddenly woken up to realize its mistakes ....reasons to put such state of the art military platforms on platter can be only to lure India ? First question we should ask why ? and next question should be Why now ?

I think any of the US move needs to be analyzed from greater Geo-political perspective .

Ever since Condoleeza Rice proposed and single handedly pursued this India policy ....US administration had shown remarkable and unbelievable turn around ....suddenly Perennial India -haters in Washington DC have become India lovers ....


The change in US's India policy can be seen at different levels of administration .....sudden pre eminence of Immigrant Indian community has to some extent fuelled these changes ....

But most decisive factor for this major turnaround in US foreign policy is the rise of China .

CIA has singularly failed in predicting or realizing two of the greatest developments in recent Global politics : first was fall of USSR and second as spectacular rise of China .

US had been caught unaware by rather fast rise of China ....Been engaged in wars in middle east in 1990's and then in Iraq -Afghanistan US simply missed to truly gauge the significance of the accelerating rise of China ....by the time real threat of Chinese decrowning US dawned upon its government ....it was too late . Only thing US could realize was to scarble its diplomacy to forge hasty alliance to contain China.
Initial attempts to build Indo-Japanese-Australian alliance failed ....India proved to be too hard nut to crack ....The deeply entrenched mutual distrust as well as contempt was one reason but India's remarkably independent foreign policy turned major impediment ...
Indian nuclear tests were the last straw ...it announced inevitable arrival of India at nuclear high table ....This was followed by another defining incident and it is that of resilience of Indian economy in face of US sanctions !
The quickness with which US rolled back US sanctions and re-engaged with India demonstrates the impact of these two incidents on US thinking ....

So rise of China followed by rise of India , imminent threat posed by China's rapid ascent to US global supremacy and rise of Indian community in US all these factors shaped US's India policy .

US has gone back over its decades old 'India' syndrome .....and is able to see India differently ....yet US does not see India anything better than a counterweight to China .

Those of us who believe US has woken up to realize Indian values and etc etc ....are too naïve to understand complexities on International politics which basically involves pitting one against another and putting one above another !


If we are to see through America's great Asian gamble ....it is truly and rightly threatened by China ....and it desperately needs countries like India to check mate China's imminent rise....

More China remains entangled in Asia better it is for US ....


This is the whole crux of so called Asia pivot which is aimed at China ....


I am inclined to see the ongoing US gestures towards India as part and parcel to this larger US strategy in Asia .


India has but no choice to play this game ...and to avoid getting check mated even as She plays this game between not so Black and white sides !!!

 

[Abingdonboy]

EMALS requires a butt-load of power. Unlikely to be provided by a conventional MGT or MGT+electric propulsion.



So picking EMALS itself might seal the decision on the propulsion system. It depends though, if the PWR on the Arihant comes out of the trials without any hitches then it won't be an astronomical challenge since up-scaling the PWR is relatively simpler. But given how the MOD operates in terms of apex level decision making the lord only knows which way it will swig and how efficient shall be the execution.

Indeed this was what I was trying to get at with my last sentence. The decision to get EMALS may actually point to the decision for n-power on an IN ACC having being made or merely a formality now. Whilst I think my points about walking before going for a run still remain I guess that may be entirely irrelevant now.

Whatever way you cut it building and desiging the IAC-2 for a nation like India is going to be a MAMMOTH project.


Some points on the E-2D anyway:


Cleared by the USG for sale to India
..:: India Strategic ::.. Navy News: US clears Hawkeye E-2D aircraft for India



NG resonponded to a 2010 RFI by the IN for 4 of these Beauties
AERO INDIA: Indian navy assesses E-2D for carrier based AEW missions


In Indian Navy colours (meaningless I know but cool nonetheless)

 

[Abingdonboy]

I really doubt that US has suddenly woken up to realize its mistakes ....reasons to put such state of the art military platforms on platter can be only to lure India ? First question we should ask why ? and next question should be Why now ?

I think any of the US move needs to be analyzed from greater Geo-political perspective .

Ever since Condoleeza Rice proposed and single handedly pursued this India policy ....US administration had shown remarkable and unbelievable turn around ....suddenly Perennial India -haters in Washington DC have become India lovers ....


The change in US's India policy can be seen at different levels of administration .....sudden pre eminence of Immogrant indian community has to some extent fuelled these changes ....

But most decisive factor for this major turnaround in US foreign policy is the rise of China .

CIA has singularly failed in predicting or realizing two of the greatest developments of recent defining moments in Global politics : first was fall of USSR and second as spectacular rise of China .

US had been caught unaware by rather fast rise of China ....Been engaged in wars in middle east in 1990's and then in Iraq -Afghanistan US simply missed the accelerating rise of China ....by the time real threat of Chinese decrowning US dawned upon its government ....it was too late . only thing US could realize was to forge hasty alliance to contain China .
Initial attempts to build Indo-Japanese-Australian alliance failed ....India proved to be too hard nut to crack ....The deeply entrenched mutual distrust as well as contempt was one reason but India's remarkably independent foreign policy turned major impediment ....
Indian nuclear tests were the last straw ...it announced inevitable arrival of India at nuclear high table ....This was followed by another defining incident and it is that of resilience of Indian economy in face of US sanctions !
The quickness with which US rolled back US sanctions and re-engaged with India demonstrates the impact of these two incidents on US thinking ....

So rise of China followed by rise of India , imminent threat posed by China's rapid ascent to US global supremacy and rise of Indian community in US all these factors shaped US's India policy .

US has gone back over its decades old 'India' syndrome .....and is able to see India differently ....yet US does not see India anything better than a counterweight to China .

Those of us who believe US has woken up to realize Indian values and etc etc ....are too naïve to understand complexities on International politics which basically involves pitting one against another and putting one above another !


If we are to see through America's great Asian gamble ....it is truly and rightly threatened by China ....and it desperately needs countries like India to check mate China's imminent rise....

More China remains entangled in Asia better it is for US ....


This is the whole crux of so called Asia pivot which is aimed at China ....


I am inclined to see the ongoing US gestures towards India as part and parcel to this larger US strategy in Asia .


India has but no choice to play this game ...and to avoid getting check mated even as She plays this game between not so Black and white sides !!!

This is not at all a "sudden" move that has come out of the blue but a product of an almost decade long engagement policy by the US and India. The two sides have vowed to improve ties since the early 2000s. This most recent US sales strategy is actually just a different tactic the way I see it. Before it was the stick and when that didn't work the US is trying to use the carrot.


Either way it is to meet their own ends.

 

[Hyperion]

You summed it up perfectly. Furthermore, all these initiatives are more part and parcel of US testing the viability of 'Asia-Pivot', to specifically poke China, rather than, all of a sudden developing lovey-dovey feelings for India. Interesting times ahead, I'll reserve rest of analysis for later.

At the moment what India should do? Milk as much tech as possible from them, as the USA is eventually going to recognize that China can not be contained, not any longer.

Back to square one. One wonders if the two broad divisions present in the production process of any such equipment are known- and if so then exactly what "ToT" shall be imparted. There is this daft notion that ToT facilitates R&D growth and capacities that can be retrenched into subsequent projects- no it can't, given that most ToT is actually M-ToT. Secondly, no one is jointly developing the Javelin, its warhead shall be optimized for high altitude operations jointly and the system might take on a different name, nothing more and nothing less. The only relief here is that CISMOA might be worked around. Brain dead journos reaching the wrong conclusion even after having quoted Carter's exact words. Cooperation will go up, but its not the sort of cooperation (neither in terms of quantum or depth) that people think it is. Although floor level management practices and process streamlining would be important lessons that can be accrued if one is willing. No transfer of know-how is going to occur albeit transfer of know-why might occur if systems are assembled in country.
@Hyperion I see you're here, difficult to explain things, no?