US had stopped Jordan from sending jets to Pakistan in 1971 war

[neehar]

"admiral i heard you the first time" i love that attitude.if only we have some leader like that now

 

[RescueRanger]

What you don't like in our way of life is YOUR problem sir, not ours.

Ummah is proven by our authentic texts. One should learn to respect others before expecting the same for his culture.

^ I have to agree with you sir, we should not be expected to "tow" the line... In a manner of speaking, we have our own culture, society, norms and attitudes. We should not force our views on other, and nor should we tolerate others forcing their views on us.

 

[INDIC]

US sent 7th fleet for saving Pakistan but still usual America bashing here.

 

[KRAIT]

What you don't like in our way of life is YOUR problem sir, not ours. Ummah is proven by our authentic texts. One should learn to respect others before expecting the same for his culture.

I have no problem with the concept but its the blatant double standard of few posters and you know who, on this forum, some with executive power.

If some ways of your life is wrong, and some people are suffering, then I have every right to speak against it.

 

[Bang Galore]

Recently a book of the same name has been written in USA based on all the de-classified materials just released by Washington.

I have read that - by Gary Bass and it must be standard reading for anyone who wants to discuss the events leading to the 1971 war.

It also smashed to bits the rubbish propaganda that the U.S. had no part to play in Jordan's transfers. Jordan transferred the planes to Pakistan(illegal under U.S. laws) on the direct request of President Nixon relayed on Kissinger's orders directly to King Hussein & to the Shah of Iran. Nixon & Kissinger circumvented the official sanctions keeping both the state department & the congress deliberately out of the loop. There are numerous transcripts now declassified which make that very clear.

"As Kissinger frankly told Nixon "Four Jordanian planes have already moved to Pakistan, 22 more are coming. We're talking to the Saudis, the Turks we've now found are willing to give five. So we're going to keep that moving....."

- The Blood Telegram - Gary J. Bass

 

[Kompromat]

@KRAIT

Right sir, the defination of 'Right and Wrong' depends on you. You think what you have to since you are a product of a different culture than us, we cannot have identical views.

Just don't hope to go uncontested.

 

[Mav3rick]

So many countries wanted to either help or already helping Pakistan (Like US sent its aircraft carrier to the Bay of Bengal), still Pakistan lost the war.

So an Aircraft Carrier sitting idly 500 km's outside could have influenced the outcome of an internal war?? Was there any attempt to assist Pakistan in any way whatsoever? Internal unrest could have been resolved only by resolving the internal conflicts.

Obviously because Pakistan Army were killing their own people. Karma has to rebound anyways.

Pakistan Army had to engage anti Pakistan forces, even if that meant their 'own' people.

 

[Gautam]

So an Aircraft Carrier sitting idly 500 km's outside could have influenced the outcome of an internal war?? Was there any attempt to assist Pakistan in any way whatsoever? Internal unrest could have been resolved only by resolving the internal conflicts.





Pakistan Army had to engage anti Pakistan forces, even if that meant their 'own' people.

I agree with the bold part.

Though I believe that the US aircraft fighter could have influenced the war, had the war escalated. Fortunately, the war ended in 13 (or 14) days, and the aircraft never got the chance to influence it.

Moreover, had sending the aircraft been useless... the US would have never sent it in the first place.

 

[Capt.Popeye]

I have read that - by Gary Bass and it must be standard reading for anyone who wants to discuss the events leading to the 1971 war.

It also smashed to bits the rubbish propaganda that the U.S. had no part to play in Jordan's transfers. Jordan transferred the planes to Pakistan(illegal under U.S. laws) on the direct request of President Nixon relayed on Kissinger's orders directly to King Hussein & to the Shah of Iran. Nixon & Kissinger circumvented the official sanctions keeping both the state department & the congress deliberately out of the loop. There are numerous transcripts now declassified which make that very clear.

About that Conversation between 'Dick' Nixon and his 'Sancho Panza' Kissinger pertaining to the transfer of the planes; here is the transcript of that telcon:

http://www2.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB79/BEBB28.pdf

Go to pg.7 line.11

Kissinger replies to Nixon's question above that 17 planes are in the transfer pipeline.

So much for the whole BS that this thread is built upon.

Now do you want to read about the F-5s that were routed to PAF via Iran?

 

[Mav3rick]

US sent 7th fleet for saving Pakistan but still usual America bashing here.

Had America wanted to prevent the independence of Bangladesh, the 7th Fleet could have been catastrophic for any adversary. When has Russia not backed down??

I agree with the bold part.

Though I believe that the US aircraft fighter could have influenced the war, had the war escalated. Fortunately, the war ended in 13 (or 14) days, and the aircraft never got the chance to influence it.

Moreover, had sending the aircraft been useless... the US would have never sent it in the first place.

I believe the real purpose of the ACC was to ensure that the war did not continue on the other side. Bangladesh was a forgiven conclusion. Had the US wanted, even the surrender of Pak Forces in Bangladesh could have been reversed.

 

[RescueRanger]

If some ways of your life is wrong, and some people are suffering, then I have every right to speak against it.

Krait, kind sir... I understand your intentions, but please enlighten me, WRONG is such a subjective word, Wrong by who's standards?

Eating pigs is wrong to us, but I don't join a European forum and pontificate to them that swine meat is bad... It's their prerogative, similarly female circumcision is HARAM and WRONG, but I don't go and lecture the African's that practice it to STOP because MY belief, culture and society feels it is wrong...

Homosexuality is widely accepted and seen as a hip thing to do these day, forget what us EVIL backward Muslims think about it, here is an excerpt from genesis about the sins of Homosexuality and the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah:

Genesis 19:4-13:

Before they lay down, the men of the city, the men of Sodom, surrounded the house, both young and old, all the people from every quarter; and they called to Lot and said to him, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us that we may have relations with them." But Lot went out to them at the doorway, and shut the door behind him, and said, "Please, my brothers, do not act wickedly. Now behold, I have two daughters who have not had relations with man; please let me bring them out to you, and do to them whatever you like; only do nothing to these men, inasmuch as they have come under the shelter of my roof." But they said, "Stand aside." Furthermore, they said, "This one came in as an alien, and already he is acting like a judge; now we will treat you worse than them." So they pressed hard against Lot and came near to break the door. But the men reached out their hands and brought Lot into the house with them, and shut the door. And they struck the men who were at the doorway of the house with blindness, both small and great, so that they wearied themselves trying to find the doorway. Then the men said to Lot, "Whom else have you here? A son-in-law, and your sons, and your daughters, and whomever you have in the city, bring them out of the place; for we are about to destroy this place, because their outcry has become so great before the Lord that the Lord has sent us to destroy it."
---- END---

Despite this, KRAIT I do not judge homosexuals not preach to them that their practice is wicked and sinful, WHO AM I TO JUDGE! I AM NO ONE!

The right to speak is your and your alone, it is guaranteed to you by the freedom of your conscious, you exist therefore you are! You are unique Krait, there will never be another who will experience what you experience, who will say what you say or do what you do. Your path is your's to walk, and who you wish to share it with is your freedom alone.

But in this freedom of thought, in this freedom of expression and the ecstatic emancipation it offers, do try to remember that whilst you are your own man, with your own belief's and your voice is there to be heard, YOUR Judgement need not be heeded nor warranted.

Sorry if i babbled on.

 

[Capt.Popeye]

The Jordanian 104's did arrive later in the war.

@Oscar; you do know the facts then!
They arrived at PAF Masroor (Mauripur) Air Base on December 13, 1971.
And were flown by RJAF Pilots till the last days of the war.

 

[Gautam]

Had America wanted to prevent the independence of Bangladesh, the 7th Fleet could have been catastrophic for any adversary. When has Russia not backed down??



I believe the real purpose of the ACC was to ensure that the war did not continue on the other side. Bangladesh was a forgiven conclusion. Had the US wanted, even the surrender of Pak Forces in Bangladesh could have been reversed.

I agree. Thats why i said that they could have influenced it, had the war escalated. We cant not deny the fact that they were (and are) the super power. They could have reversed the outcome of the war.

I had also read somewhere (cant remember where) that USSR was trying to block the US aircraft for the same reason.

 

[SQ8]

@Oscar; you do know the facts then!
They arrived at PAF Masroor (Mauripur) Air Base on December 13, 1971.
And were flown by RJAF Pilots till the last days of the war.

Nine F-104As of the RJAF arrived at Masroor (Mauripur) Air Base on December 13, 1971. The Jordanian pilots who ferried them were all operational pilots and they flew many air defense missions on these fighters within the Pakistani air space. The PAF did not allow them to fly cross-border offensive missions over the Indian territory.
Royal Jordanian AF F-104A in Pakistan: 56-767, 56-774, 56-775, 56-777, 56-789, 56-799, 56-839, 56-843, 56-845.

It was decided to use the RJAF aircraft for night air defence without missiles (i.e. gun only), making the wingtips available for carriage of drop tanks instead of carrying them under wings, which increased the drag by about 45%. The rationale was that with the limited effort available, staying in the air for a longer duration was a better pay-off in terms of deterrence, rather than carrying out futile night interceptions in the absence of an effective low level GCI radar or a worthwhile AI radar.

916 Starfighter

 

[Capt.Popeye]

I agree. Thats why i said that they could have influenced it, had the war escalated. We cant not deny the fact that they were (and are) the super power. They could have reversed the outcome of the war.

I had also read somewhere (cant remember where) that USSR was trying to block the US aircraft for the same reason.

1971 was a different era, amigo. From your post it appears that you did not come into existence then.

There were TWO SUPER-POWERS then USA and USSR. As a matter of fact the USSR, under Leonid Brezhnev was then at the the Zenith of its Imperial powers. They out-manuevered the US in every move at that time.
The USA could neither influence the final outcome nor could they have even hoped to reverse it.

Read up on the history of that period; its quite fascinating and intriguing!