US had stopped Jordan from sending jets to Pakistan in 1971 war

[FaujHistorian]

That is correct..

If that's so, then the whole purpose of this thread and especially OP can crumble to little pieces of lies lies and more lies.


peace.

 

[Capt.Popeye]

If that's so, then the whole purpose of this thread and especially OP can crumble to little pieces of lies lies and more lies.


peace.

I have already made that very point earlier on in this thread. Read through the thread; you may find it interesting.

As far as India and Indians are concerned: that period is really "a coming of age", which is why its so important for us.
It was also the time that USA lost all goodwill in India which the Kennedy era had garnered in so much measure. And it proved to us that American Govts. should be treated with extreme caution.

For me personally; it helped me to understand that Americans in general and Americans in Govt. in particular have just "no sense of history". I always felt amazed that the people of (arguably) the most powerful Nation on Earth could elect rank mediocrities as their Presidents off and on to rule them. Even other Presidents after Nixon seem to attest to that.

That always left me mystified; till a WASP Academic in an Ivy League institution said to me: "we are the biggest collection of mediocrities in the world who can afford to hire some of the best brains in the world to make things work for us."

 

[FaujHistorian]

I have already made that very point earlier on in this thread. Read through the thread;

I tried and this why I asked to confirm with your the exact post #.


You are a good historian.

But

please try to open a new thread if the material becomes too much or too distant from the OP.


Like the case of American policies. I'd love to debate that in a separate thread.

over a virtual cup of hot tea off course.


peace

 

[Capt.Popeye]

I tried and this why I asked to confirm with your the exact post #.


You are a good historian.

But

please try to open a new thread if the material becomes too much or too distant from the OP.


Like the case of American policies. I'd love to debate that in a separate thread.

over a virtual cup of hot tea off course.


peace

I can't see any Post#nos. in this new format of the Forum; so I cannot give you any ref.nos. You'll have go through the thread or track-back through my posts.


And I'm not even a Historian in real-life or in my avatar/nick, so that mantle hardly fits me.

I can brew up a good cup of chai or coffee; or make a good mug of Soup.
Even a stein of Chilled Beer can be on offer, depending on preferences.

 

[FaujHistorian]

I can't see any Post#nos. in this new format of the Forum; so I cannot give you any ref.nos. You'll have go through the thread or track-back through my posts.


And I'm not even a Historian in real-life or in my avatar/nick, so that mantle hardly fits me.

I can brew up a good cup of chai or coffee; or make a good mug of Soup.
Even a stein of Chilled Beer can be on offer, depending on preferences.

Not sure why.

But I can see this your post is #203.

Secondly, I see a little arrow in front of my name. This arrow when clicked, takes you back to my original post.

So there is a way to look for and keep track of older posts.

Hiistorian doesn't have to be in the nick. you brought up facts about planes that others did not.

Peace

p.s. Hot tea/coffee will be a preferred choice of brew as a good stimulant for intellectual exchange.

 

[Capt.Popeye]

Not sure why.

But I can see this your post is #203.

Secondly, I see a little arrow in front of my name. This arrow when clicked, takes you back to my original post.

So there is a way to look for and keep track of older posts.

Hiistorian doesn't have to be in the nick. you brought up facts about planes that others did not.

Peace

p.s. Hot tea/coffee will be a preferred choice of brew as a good stimulant for intellectual exchange.

Lol; for the most intellectual discussions, Bhaang ground into milk is the best stimulant.

 

[illusion8]

I can't see any Post#nos. in this new format of the Forum; so I cannot give you any ref.nos. You'll have go through the thread or track-back through my posts.


And I'm not even a Historian in real-life or in my avatar/nick, so that mantle hardly fits me.

I can brew up a good cup of chai or coffee; or make a good mug of Soup.
Even a stein of Chilled Beer can be on offer, depending on preferences.

I did give him your post numbers yesterday - I think he missed it when that qamar guy went medieval on him

 

[Peshwa]

Why do you spread ignorance bhai.

Muslims in the Hindu Majority Provinces (HMP) were supposed to stay in India
Muslims in the Muslim Majority Provinces (MMPs) wre supposed to be in Pakistan.

--- This is all true with few exceptions (like Partition of Punjab etc.)


However many Muslims from Bihar like our community from Bihar did migrate to E. and W. Pakistan thanks to secured job quota etc.


There was no "choosing" woozing between secular vs. religious mumbo jumbo the way you put it.

please quit typing here the 3rd grade government history book stuff.

With a total of 6-8 million people from either side migrating to India and Pakistan respectively, there most definitely was a choice that people excercised. There were no blockades to prevent muslims from HMP or Hindus from MMP to move across borders. the plan may or may not have entailed such movement or even planned for such (one of the reasons why the migration caused such huge problems for each nation initially), no restrictions were made on people choosing to move to the other side based on their sense of nationality and security. This is the definition of "Choice"

Indian muslims are concentrated in the states of UP and Bihar (northern provinces) and many did decide to move to the earstwhile E.Pakistan as you have stated. So this choice did exist and when i mention Indian muslims "choosing" india, its true because they very well could have migrated to E.Pak or even through punjab. They chose to find financial, religious and social security with India, unlike many of those "muhajir" migrants to Pakistan that chose their destiny as such.

Lastly, I find your tone and style of writing quite condescending and frankly unnecessary. I have highlighted an example above..
Please note that you might consider yourself to be somewhat of an expert on topics of history, but there is no need to belittle others opinions. I will maintain my civility in conversations with you given that you do speak sense in many matters.
but please learn to be respectful as your words can become a polarizing factor.

Obviously personal yaar.

Legal immigration from Bihar/UP to Paksitan is not open. So many of them are stuck there even when they want to move to Pakistan for better opporunities.

They look at the fb pictures of our homes and cars and they want to have the same, even though the Karachi is not well known for stability and peace. But the wealth is still there. People do change new model cars every year and live in mansions. That is totally not possible for a lower/Middle class Muslim in Bihar and UP>


I don't want to start Pak-Ind flame war, just sharing personal experience.

peace

Listen my friend, in a thread about India-Pakistan, personal experiences are of little value since they could be coming from a place of bias and are very hard to prove correct or incorrect.
I respect you as a poster and dont doubt your credibitlity. But if I were to take your "personal experiences" as "proof", we have to do the same for every other member....credible or not!
Following this, an Indian might claim his personal experience as proof for Pakistans involvement in state terrorism....thats not enough now is it nor would you accept it right?

I would recommend we stick to openly available statistics and news items (from credible sources) as proof of making claims regarding such things.

Peace
Peshwa

 

[FaujHistorian]

With a total of 6-8 million people from either side migrating to India and Pakistan respectively, there most definitely was a choice that people excercised.

Please do not confuse lakh with million.

We do that so many times and mess up the statistics by adding 10 times the number

Anyone spreading ignorance about 1930s and 40s in this day and age, should be called what he/she is: Ignorant.

Why would that be considered condescending.

It is just stating the obvious.

If I don't know something, well tell me, that I am ignorant and provide some references even wiki.

Thank you.

 

[Peshwa]

Please do not confuse lakh with million.

We do that so many times and mess up the statistics by adding 10 times the number

Anyone spreading ignorance about 1930s and 40s in this day and age, should be called what he/she is: Ignorant.

Why would that be considered condescending.

It is just stating the obvious.

If I don't know something, well tell me, that I am ignorant and provide some references even wiki.

Thank you.

You need to mend this attitude that everyone else is speaking from their whims and fantasies when making a point.

Below is a source that shows that total migration inflowing and outflowing was in the range I have mentioned, maybe even higher taking into account the missing persons.

I dont see where you're getting the lakhs figure for total migration.

http://www.hks.harvard.edu/fs/akhwaja/papers/Big March EPW Publish08.pdf

If I were you, I wouldnt proclaim to be an "expert" if you still have much to learn as you yourself claim....let others bestow that title on you..
Hardly are you in a position to make judgements about "ignorance"..
I request you again to keep such comments in check, no matter how obvious or troubling they are to your evolved ego.

 

[FaujHistorian]

You need to mend this attitude that everyone else is speaking from their whims and fantasies when making a point. .

Wish you follow your own advice before writing ignorant stuff like the following.

Indian Muslims are Indians first and chose their destiny with a secular and free state to practice their religion with other like minded people of different faiths..

 

[Peshwa]

Wish you follow your own advice before writing ignorant stuff like the following.

Please do tell how my statement has any level of ignorance in it?

Which part has gotten you so upset?
That Indian muslims are Indian first? Are you doubting their loyalty to India? If so, please prove otherwise..
That they chose their destiny with a secular and free state (india)? Please show me the Indian constitution that does not guarantee freedom and right to practice religion like any other Indian...
That they have their right to practice their religion with other like minded people?

Please prove these statements incorrect....show me my ignorance, my whimsical beliefs or whatever else you think i have displayed through these statements...

Either way, I will be here to listen and provide my perspective...

Looking forward to your reply.

 

[FaujHistorian]

Please show me the Indian constitution that does not guarantee freedom and right to practice religion like any other Indian...
.

Indian constitution wasn't signed until the end of 1949,

Back then both India and Pakistan wrote very similar constitutions. Because Islamism had not been brought into Pakistan yet.

Therefore

People opting for either Pakistan or India were not opting for a superior/secular constitution.

such statements are naive and they are an effort to rewrite history to fit the present.

Thank you

 

[Peshwa]

Indian constitution wasn't signed until the end of 1949,

Back then both India and Pakistan wrote very similar constitutions. Because Islamism had not been brought into Pakistan yet.

Therefore

People opting for either Pakistan or India were not opting for a superior/secular constitution.


Thank you

Migration occoured till 1951 as stated in the link i provided earlier...This means that many people made a conscious decision until 1951 of choosing India or Pakistan. Some before 1949 at the thought of living in a country with a clear Hindu majority vs. that with a Muslim majority. Others post the installation of the secular constitution in 1949.
Either way, the ones that decided to stay past 1949 did so knowing that they would always live being minority and made that choice feeling safe and rejecting the idea that Hindus and Muslims could not live together and were two seperate people and nations. Which is the premise of my argument that Indian muslims are Indians first, where nationality preceeds religion.

 

[FaujHistorian]

Migration occoured till 1951 as stated in the link i provided earlier...This means that many people made a conscious decision until 1951 of choosing India or Pakistan. Some before 1949 at the thought of living in a country with a clear Hindu majority vs. that with a Muslim majority. Others post the installation of the secular constitution in 1949.
Either way, the ones that decided to stay past 1949 did so knowing that they would always live being minority and made that choice feeling safe and rejecting the idea that Hindus and Muslims could not live together and were two seperate people and nations. Which is the premise of my argument that Indian muslims are Indians first, where nationality preceeds religion.

Most of the migration aka bulk was complete in 1947 end.

later ones were economic migrants. Mostly from UP and Bihar to Karachi thanks to the guaranteed quota in federal and state jobs.

peace.