Featured US blocks delivery of Turkish gunships to Pakistan

[mike2000 is back]

lets go back to our all weather friend

I guess there must be a reason Pakistan has been insisting on getting the T-129 even after being offered the Z-10 by the chinese at preferential rates for years now . Don't you think your military leaders know what they are doing better than you and I?

CAAC certificates WZ16 turboshaft for AC352

The Civil Aviation Authority of China (CAAC) has certificated the WZ16 turboshaft that will power the AVIC AC352 7t multi-role helicopter.

www.flightglobal.com

CAAC certificates WZ16 turboshaft for AC352
By Greg Waldron11 October 2019

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The Civil Aviation Authority of China (CAAC) has certificated the WZ16 turboshaft that will power the AVIC AC352 7t multi-role helicopter.
The Civil Aviation Authority of China (CAAC) has certificated the WZ16 turboshaft that will power the AVIC AC352 7t multi-role helicopter.
The engine is based on the Safran Ardiden 3C that powers the Airbus Helicopters H175, on which the AC352 is based. It was jointly developed by Safran and the Aero Engine Corporation of China (AECC).
The news follows EASA’s certification of the Ardiden 3C in 2018.
Safran says that the WZ16 “is the first jointly-developed aero engine to be entirely certified by Chinese authorities.”
The specific AECC units involved in the work are Harbin Dongan Engine and Hunan Aerospace Propulsion Research Institute.
“Certification from Chinese authorities marks a major milestone for Safran Helicopter Engines and AECC” says Safran executive vice president Bruno Bellanger.
“It confirms that the WZ16 is now ready to operate in accordance with world-class Chinese safety and performance standards, thanks to an intensive maturation plan conducted by our partners. It is also a historic moment for the Chinese aerospace industry as it is the first-ever jointly-developed aero engine to be entirely CAAC certified, and a major step toward AC352 entry-into-service.”
The AC352 conducted its maiden flight in December 2016, and has been undergoing testing since then.
The WZ16/Ardiden 3C turboshaft falls in the 1,700-2,000shp range

Yes european countries have been more open to collborating with China than US companies. Iran should learn something from this i guess and lure EU companies in joint ventures and investments. Though I don't see that happening anytime soon either given the current climate with the nuclear deal in limbo

 

[Readerdefence]

It might be reconsidered again.
View attachment 723346

Hi you can get them if you have $$ so basically no money no honey situation at the moment so only one left without cash transactions is ChINA at the end PAA will be getting Z10 soon better then late
thank you

 

[Trango Towers]

With the way USA is behaving with component who will install American engines in the future.
Do u remember the air laughed french missiles for Egypt that had American electronic components and America blocked the sale. France now has a law that no American parts in their weapons. In the long term america will lose this war

 

[Cool_Soldier]

So, finally USA did not approve sale. It will pave a way towards better solution.

 

[T-SaGe]

The original Italian A129 upon which the Turkish T129 is based did not/does not use Honeywell engine. They had/have Rolls Royce Gem engines. RR buying Honeywell does not mean that American export laws apply to RR's products/IP. They would only apply to items that Honeywell owns IP for or RR choses to develop/produce in the Honeywell on the American soil. Gems being strictly RR product and produced in Europe are exempted, to the best of my knowledge.

The only problem that I see is that the Honeywell LHTEC T800 are reported to have better performance than the RR's Gem engines. The export versions of A129 (i.e, A129I) are being offered with LHTEC T800.

American restrictions don't apply to T129 per-say. They apply to American equipments onboard T129. If Pakistan can replace them with Italian/European equipment the Americans would not have any control over their exports. For the past couple of decades the Europeans have been trying hard to phaseout American equipments from their technologies because of the American export control laws & they have had considerable success in it.

But again, disclaimer: my knowledge about helicopters in general and A129/T129 is quite meagre.

However, if you search for Turkey's attack helicopter procurement process and test activities that were conducted during that period, you'll see that one of the project's key points LHTEC engines.

BCS the A-129 Mangusta system had a problem of meeting some requirements such as emergency maneuverability under certain special conditions and especially in hot-and-high performance, the relevant project teams have worked on this for years and as a result, a highly altered variant has been created. Of course, as a result of all these cost partnerships and high volume orders, the Italian interlocutors agreed on a comprehensive ToT package and export approval specification for T129 variants, especially with Turkish-indigenization in subsystems.

The transition from A-129 to T-129 means not only adapting the logistics system of the helicopter to the Turkish defense industry but also optimizing it to perform better in Anatolian geography and climatic conditions. Today, we have moved to another stage with the Phase-2 study, but I do not go into too much detail so as not to distract the subject. I want to say very briefly that There is a gradual roadmap and Turkey will have Itar-free(which it will stop of being a problem) platform with the transition to T-629. In determining the requirements of upcoming platforms, we can assume that external demands on a scale to increase export competitiveness are taken into account, besides TAF requirements.

There are of course many factors that cause Pakistan have problems with supply of LHTEC engines. As some of these problems were caused by Turkey's role, it also a result of the problematic relationship between the US and Pakistan recently in another aspect. I understand some of them better when Pakistani friends write something on these issues. But, I would like to say a few things about the Turkey side of the problem by your leave.

Normally, project requests could proceed with performance and competency-oriented approach, but the political risks and the unsuitable intervention attitudes from the past of the relevant states should also be taken into account. TAF never settles for less in the systems it demands. I can give you dozens of examples from the Altay project to the new type of missile boat project. In system planning related to these projects: Even a group of sub-systems that are being manufactured in Turkey already, can not achieve priority if it does not reach the highest level of competence. If the system integrator can reach better from abroad, turns to that products within the logic of industrial production.

All industrial areas in Turkey are in free-market conditions and domestic competition open to the whole world. In this sense, we can clearly say the regulations that could provide privileged advantages to domestic companies are still very weak. Turkey has an industrial infrastructure integrated with the global economy. Based on raw materials, intermediate goods, or end products; this integration is valid in all production processes. Therefore, the early industrialization process in the defense industry has also developed with this. It is possible to see the traces of this in many areas of the Turkish defense industry.

However, when Turkey started to catch state-of-art competitiveness in these industrial areas, or its regional interests begin the conflict with some partner countries for example; this unusual situation began to drift Turkey to something unique position. Maybe Turkey was not seemingly isolated first But started to become another country that was forced to contend with an implicit embargo or political sanctions measure. This is an extremely complex and long story but when you look at the Altay project current status, or when you look at past export blockings such Fırtına, or Atak today. it is possible to get a summary of this story. All these planning mistakes are examples showing how a country's industrial strategies and foreign policies should be carried out in harmony.

 

[Suika]

How many countries are still flying these Cobras? Plenty I take it and spares are not an issue really. We are still flying Sea Kings that are a decade older than the Cobras and they seem to be doing just fine in the more corrosive marine environment. I think if Japan and Thailand can still fly these AH-1F models, so can we. Again, I dont see any urgency on PA part to replace them even if it would have liked to by now. Refurbish them the best you can (look at Iran doing it) and install upgrades as you see fit.

While Japan introduced 90 cobras to the JGSDF, they have been used a lot and have started to age. As of 2016, about 60 were actually in service. I seem to recall a more recent article of around 2018 or 2019 saying about 55 Cobras in service but cannot find that reference. Here's a 2016 report saying the "about 60".
https://www.sankei.com/premium/news/160727/prm1607270002-n2.html

Japan will need to start looking for a replacement attack helicopter not too long from now, perhaps within 10 years, if still seen valuable enough in the new coming age of drone warfare.





On another matter, the Philippines also tried to obtain a handful of T129 but faced the same issue so will likely end up with Vipers.

https://maxdefense.blogspot.com/2020/05/atak-vs-viper-vs-apache-latest-updates.html

Interesting timing is that the USMC is going through restructuring such as giving up its tanks and some artillery, and helicopters in exchange for balistic missile units. I seem to recall that the USMC will also be giving up some of its Vipers. These Vipers might be easy to hand over to any international buyers.

 

[Mentee]

So PAF will not buy western equipment if its not offered on discount ..hence PAF will not procure f16 on its own money

Cost of the weapon platform is considerable but capability is the key determining factor in this equation . As per the expert opinion and stats jf17's and j10's far outperforms the limited and scaled down paf F16's inventory almost in every aspect which is only good at carrying jamming pods and bvr's but then a block b jf17 if not good is equally capable of performing the CAP duties


Besides f16 also worked as a token of loyalty to a global power in rainy days not anymore

think it's time to develop a gunship just like the JF 17 program

The threat calculus isnt in favour of wasting a decade , may be at some latter stage?

 

[Signalian]

it also a result of the problematic relationship between the US and Pakistan recently in another aspect.

Which other weapons systems has Turkey exported to other countries with US equipment (or engines) in them after S-400 deal ?

 

[Pakistan Space Agency]

... The United States announced the first blockade in July 2019, days before a meeting between the former US president, Donald Trump, and Prime Minister Imran Khan in Washington. ...

The deal should had been cancelled in July 2019. Not sure why Pakistan and Turkey were still hopeful of receiving export licenses for the engines despite President Donald Trump made it crystal clear to Cartoon-e-Azam PM Imran Khan. Two years wasted.

I always favoured the purchase of Z-10 Attack helicopters from China but Pakistani Generals just can't get over their obsession with everything thats Western. Daft.

 

[HAIDER]

The deal should had been cancelled in July 2019. Not sure why Pakistan and Turkey were still hopeful of receiving export licenses for the engines despite President Donald Trump made it crystal clear to Cartoon-e-Azam PM Imran Khan. Two years wasted.

I always favoured the purchase of Z-10 Attack helicopters from China but Pakistani Generals just can't get over their obsession with everything thats Western. Daft.

Z10 had altitude problem and harness catch moist after flying crossing certain height. But, hopefully they come over these main issue. Plus , had gun problem.

 

[LeGenD]

The deal should had been cancelled in July 2019. Not sure why Pakistan and Turkey were still hopeful of receiving export licenses for the engines despite President Donald Trump made it crystal clear to Cartoon-e-Azam PM Imran Khan. Two years wasted.

I always favoured the purchase of Z-10 Attack helicopters from China but Pakistani Generals just can't get over their obsession with everything thats Western. Daft.

This pursuit is not a matter of obsession but that of desired capabilities in extreme heat and high altitude conditions.

First choice = The Bell AH-1Z Viper
Second choice = The TAI/AgustaWestland T129 ATAK

American decisions are not making it feasible to source either option in numbers. Therefore, PA might have to look at other alternatives now.

One should strive for the best by DEFAULT. Baaki hamari qismat.

 

[Pakistan Space Agency]

Maybe you can tell the same thing to PAF officials and Pilots who show immense confidence in not-so-best F-16's, maybe these highly trained Pilots and Officials should listen to you more.

Well, the first Pakistani pilot to fly the F-16 also built the JF-17 Thunders.

According to him (Air Marshal (retd) Shahid Latif), the JF-17 Thunders are based on the F-16 design and Block-3 have supercede the Pakistani F-16s.

 

[TheDebSahab]

You are mentally retarded.

Pdf defence "experts" would likely ditch a cost effective and state of the art weapon system in favour of any thing handicapped if has western origin -------


e.g a Pakistani version of f16 would still perfrom way better in war than a j10/j17 even though it has no aesa ,standoff weapon carrying capability and is over priced without Pakistani having access to its source codes ------- still is "best"

 

[ziaulislam]

Cost of the weapon platform is considerable but capability is the key determining factor in this equation . As per the expert opinion and stats jf17's and j10's far outperforms the limited and scaled down paf F16's inventory almost in every aspect which is only good at carrying jamming pods and bvr's but then a block b jf17 if not good is equally capable of performing the CAP duties


Besides f16 also worked as a token of loyalty to a global power in rainy days not anymore


The threat calculus isnt in favour of wasting a decade , may be at some latter stage?

F16 block 70 will still have superior AESA jammers and superior BVR to PL15.

It will also have precision strike capacity

What it will lack(if pass hx is judgement) is antiship and stand off ammunition

its not fair to compare b52 with jf17b3 since its a 20 years old iteration and any future procurement will be of block70.

PAF has weighed this and have come to conculsion; more f16s only if cheaper then block 3 i.e EAD or FMF

 

[Pakistan Space Agency]

This pursuit is not a matter of obsession but that of desired capabilities in extreme heat and high altitude conditions.

First choice = The Bell AH-1Z Viper
Second choice = The TAI/AgustaWestland T129 ATAK

American decisions are not making it feasible to source either option in numbers. Therefore, PA might have to look at other alternatives now.

One should strive for the best by DEFAULT. Baaki hamari qismat.

Bro, if that was the case, the Chinese could've resolved it for Pakistan on urgent basis.

But the fact is, Pakistan had the 3 Z-10 helicopters with the Pakistan Army "testing" for years while they were busy negotiating deals for T-129 and AH-1Z. As soon as the deals were signed, Pakistan made the altitude and heat excuses and Just rejected the Z-10 outright, not even bothering to request China to make Pakistan specfic enhancements.

Were the T-129s and AH-1Zs tested in Pakistan as vigorously as much as the Z-10s were?