Featured US blocks delivery of Turkish gunships to Pakistan

[Jf Thunder]

Pakistan has the Chinese option, so no worries:-

 

[HAIDER]

as a spokesman, what kind of the position that he is putting his country in? can't released a proper statement without mentioning other country?
from US of A to europe, No China, No life these days?

Helicopter engine is the most complicated machine compare to plane engine. Only few countries in the world manufacture helicopter engine. Where US,Canada/licensed, France/lincesed, Russia, Japan are the main source. Rest has assembly licenses. Even Chinese are working with France/Airbus to manufacture engine.
Pakistan should give a shot to Agusta 129 , which been offered before.

(@Signalian Pakistan recently bought 245 50mm SP Mike-10 guns from Italy, it for tanks or only for border deployment ? )

 

[Mentee]

You are mentally retarded.

This isn't a valid argument.

F16 block 70 will still have superior AESA jammers and superior BVR to PL15.

It will also have precision strike capacity

What it will lack(if pass hx is judgement) is antiship and stand off ammunition

its not fair to compare b52 with jf17b3 since its a 20 years old iteration and any future procurement will be of block70.

PAF has weighed this and have come to conculsion; more f16s only if cheaper then block 3 i.e EAD or FMF

Realigning our geo strategic priorties for a bunch of aesa radars which we've already got our hands on anyways ?

 

[MMM-E]

wait for a few years and win the future


Turkish TEI TS-1400 turboshaft Engine will be ready in a few years even its superior to American LHTEC CTS800


TEI TS-1400 Turboshaft Engine

TEI-TS1400 engine was designed for the T625 multirole Helicopter and T629 Attack Helicopter


T-129 Attack Helicopter used LHTEC CTS800 turboshaft engines that have 1,373 shaft horsepower each, created jointly by Rolls-Royce and Honeywell

İndigenous engine TEI TS-1400 which produces 1,660 horsepower

Turkey will be 3rd country in the world that develop 10 tons class heavy Attack Helicopter after The US ( AH-64E ) and Russia ( KA-52 )

Turkey has enough capability to develop its own ATAK-II heavy Attack Helicopter through T-129 Attack Helicopter

Turkey has its own technological capability to produce the main components of the Helicopters

-- fuselage
-- electronics and avionics
-- mission computer
-- Helicopter electronic warfare system
-- Infrared Counter Measure System
-- HELMET Integrated Display System
-- fire control radar
-- the main and tail landing gear
-- Engine
-- the transmission rotor
-- 20mm and 30 mm Gun with buried munition box
-- guided rocket
-- missiles

Turkey has 3 different Attack Helicopter projects 5 tons class T-129 , 6 tons class T-629 and 10 tons class ATAK-II
also 5 and 10 tons class Utility Helicopter projects

so T-629 and ATAK-II Attack Helicopters , T-625 and 10 tons class Utility Helicopters will be 100% indigenous including Turboshaft Engine


even Turkey develops unmanned and electric Attack Helicopter

Pakistan can work with Turkey on Helicopter and UCAV technologies to win the future

İndia has no this capability

 

[T-SaGe]

Which other weapons systems has Turkey exported to other countries with US equipment (or engines) in them after S-400 deal ?

There are mostly problems with the German government in this regard. They blocked SPH exports for a long time, due to the engine it carried. Today, these problems continue with the Altay's MTU-RENK engine and transmission. As of now, Pakistan is the only country where the US has put an obstacle. I would like to remind you that currently Sikorsky-TAI T-70 helicoper program engine production continues in TEI facilities under license.Ongoing production processes in projects such as T70 and the existing logistic & maintenance operations, Turkey's current ATAK improvment activities about overcome the obstacles and Pakistan's new procurement schedule decisions with Turkey rather than focusing on a new heli, all these makes me think that the Problem is not one-dimensional.

Meanwhile, India continues to buy US systems without any problems. Moreover, India also has an S-400 issue ahead. It may be necessary to evaluate this difference of attitude of the USA within China-India-Pakistan triangle.

 

[flameboard]

Making a RELIABLE PROVEN engine is not like building a car or a bike. Lol. It takes huge investment , skills, constant quality checks by putting engine under the most severe stress conditions etc and most of all time. If not many countries will be making engines here and there . So Pakistan will have to wait for quite some time for that.

I thought the same when Pakistan gave them a 1 year grace period...

Which is why I said by some miracle... but I think many people didn’t price that part of my comment

 

[Signalian]

There are mostly problems with the German government in this regard. They blocked SPH exports for a long time, due to the engine it carried. Today, these problems continue with the Altay's MTU-RENK engine and transmission. As of now, Pakistan is the only country where the US has put an obstacle.

If Germans had created trouble for SPH and Altay MBT then Pakistan must be aware of that. Pakistan had been denied more F-16s from Jordan as well as hurdles for funding were created to sell PAF 8 x new F-16s by USA. Furthermore, when TuAF requested pilots for F-16s and PAF's pilots wanted to volunteer, they were denied access by USA. So The issue exists, however, in the backdrop of all these developments Pakistan and Turkey still went ahead to sign a deal for T-129. Surely, there must be guarantees of delivery given by TAI and a backup plan would have been put forth for Pakistan Army to acquire these gunships. This is a $1.5 Billion project/contract. Its hard to believe that TAI and Pakistan did not already see this coming from USA.

I would like to remind you that currently Sikorsky-TAI T-70 helicoper program engine production continues in TEI facilities under license.Ongoing production processes in projects such as T70 and the existing logistic & maintenance operations, Turkey's current ATAK improvment activities about overcome the obstacles and Pakistan's new procurement schedule decisions with Turkey rather than focusing on a new heli, all these makes me think that the Problem is not one-dimensional.

Are T-70 being exported to another countries ?
I think Turkey sold drones to Azerbaijan, TB2 Bayratkar. These have Turkish systems, weapons and propulsion systems. Im interested to see if Turkey sold any USA origin weaponry to other countries, especially after S-400 deal. Do you have any data or links ?

 

[jupiter2007]

Or for the time being turkey fits the helicopter with comparable euro Russian or Ukrainian engines
And latter batches with indigenous ones

Or for the time being turkey fits the helicopter with comparable euro Russian or Ukrainian engines
And latter batches with indigenous ones

Turkish Engine will be best option for Pakistan.

 

[SABRE]

If this is correct than solution is to seek joint venture (JV) with Turkey and get some European companies onboard. This should have been done much earlier but better late than never.

As far as dealing with the American export control laws and rules are concerned this is the case. Any technology/weapon that incorporates American items, be it a small screw, essentially becomes hostage to American approval for re-export. If you remove the American items from it then there is no American jurisdiction over the sale of the concerned technology/weapon. Similar laws/rules apply to the participation of the American scientists and engineers, whose work, contributions and innovations are subject to American export controls. For this reason, CERN refused to include American technologies and personnel in its Hadron Collider project and, from what I have heard, Sweden is also aiming to completely Europeanise its Gripen. In short, if Turkey is able to replace all of the American equipment onboard T129 then there is nothing to stop the sales of it to Pakistan or another country, unless Turkey brought American engineers aboard the developmental programme of its halo.

JV will make sense when
a) You intend on acquiring something in large numbers, at least 100+
b) Partner states see export potential
c) There is nothing in the partner states' inventory that matches the proposed JV item.

Pakistan military acquisitions, however, take place on piecemeal basis. For instance, PA only wanted to acquire 30 T129 in the near term with no concrete commitment for more. Then there is the fact that Europeans pretty much have everything they need. They would instead prefer for Pakistan to acquire what is already in existence. This way they'll get the best of the deal.

The whole T129 debacle raises serious issues on Pakistan's military acquisition process. When it was known from the beginning that some of the key items onboard T129 are American it should have been avoided altogether.

 

[Signalian]

I think it's time to develop a gunship just like the JF 17 program.....

The first step would be towards a light transport helicopter, maybe 3-4 seater apart from pilot/co pilot.

 

[Asian.Century]

FCK USA - from Pakistan.

The blockade could “cause more harm” to US interests, Mr Kalin Turkish spokeman added.

 

[jupiter2007]

If Germans had created trouble for SPH and Altay MBT then Pakistan must be aware of that. Pakistan had been denied more F-16s from Jordan as well as hurdles for funding were created to sell PAF 8 x new F-16s by USA. Furthermore, when TuAF requested pilots for F-16s and PAF's pilots wanted to volunteer, they were denied access by USA. So The issue exists, however, in the backdrop of all these developments Pakistan and Turkey still went ahead to sign a deal for T-129. Surely, there must be guarantees of delivery given by TAI and a backup plan would have been put forth for Pakistan Army to acquire these gunships. This is a $1.5 Billion project/contract. Its hard to believe that TAI and Pakistan did not already see this coming from USA.

Are T-70 being exported to another countries ?
I think Turkey sold drones to Azerbaijan, TB2 Bayratkar. These have Turkish systems, weapons and propulsion systems. Im interested to see if Turkey sold any USA origin weaponry to other countries, especially after S-400 deal. Do you have any data or links ?

USA is famous for ”Lara Lappa”. They never keep their promises. We have examples from 1971,1979-1989, 2001, 2011, 2017 and now.
Our army is in love with their goods and overlook everything else, maybe because of the free shopping and gifts they get from the contractor.

 

[PDF]

USA is famous for ”Lara Lappa”. They never keep their promises. We have examples from 1971,1979-1989, 2001, 2011 and now.

It doesn't change the fact that they produce great machines and despite all the cons when going for their equipment, Pakistan loves it.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

If Germans had created trouble for SPH and Altay MBT then Pakistan must be aware of that. Pakistan had been denied more F-16s from Jordan as well as hurdles for funding were created to sell PAF 8 x new F-16s by USA. Furthermore, when TuAF requested pilots for F-16s and PAF's pilots wanted to volunteer, they were denied access by USA. So The issue exists, however, in the backdrop of all these developments Pakistan and Turkey still went ahead to sign a deal for T-129. Surely, there must be guarantees of delivery given by TAI and a backup plan would have been put forth for Pakistan Army to acquire these gunships. This is a $1.5 Billion project/contract. Its hard to believe that TAI and Pakistan did not already see this coming from USA.

Are T-70 being exported to another countries ?
I think Turkey sold drones to Azerbaijan, TB2 Bayratkar. These have Turkish systems, weapons and propulsion systems. Im interested to see if Turkey sold any USA origin weaponry to other countries, especially after S-400 deal. Do you have any data or links ?

The guarantee was that the Turks put money aside from their national budget to finance this deal. Not only that, but the specs of the PAA T129s are identical to those of the Turkish military ones. So, if things go south (as they have), the Turks just take delivery, and we don't pay a dime.

 

[Signalian]

USA is famous for ”Lara Lappa”. They never keep their promises. We have examples from 1971,1979-1989, 2001, 2011, 2017 and now.
Our army is in love with their goods and overlook everything else, maybe because of the free shopping and gifts they get from the contractor.

PAA is looking at different gunships and acquiring the ones it can get its hands on. Initially there were 20 AH-1S, which were later upgraded to AH-1F. PAA got more AH-1 and the final tally were 51 AH-1F with 3 crashes, leaving 48 in total. Alongside PAA evaluated other gunships like Z-10, Mi-28, i think EC Tiger, Mi-35, etc. Then PAA went ahead and finalized Mi-35 and AH-1Z, out of which Mi-35 got delivered. After that, T-129 and Z-10 came into light. So the suppliers for gunships are USA, Russia, possibly Turkey and maybe China.

The guarantee was that the Turks put money aside from their national budget to finance this deal. Not only that, but the specs of the PAA T129s are identical to those of the Turkish military ones. So, if things go south (as they have), the Turks just take delivery, and we don't pay a dime.

So its a safe bet, almost. Pakistan might secure a similar deal with Chinese for Z-10, if some version of Z-10 will fly in PAA colors finally.