US Army Shoot Unborn Baby in the Womb

[qsaark]

There's tons of examples about the prosecuted U.S military personnel

Korean My Lai

By Bruce Cumings (Bruce Cumings, chair of the history department at the University of Chicago, is the author, most recently, of North Korea: Another Country)

Repressed memory is the ammunition of history, returning when one least expects it to puncture the complacency of the present. Americans reacted with palpable shock at learning the fate of several hundred Korean civilians, machine-gunned to death by US soldiers in late July 1950 under a bridge near Nogun village. The deeply researched Associated Press account of this massacre made the front pages of major newspapers, leading some of them to run for cover--like the Washington Post, which dismissed the massacre as the unfortunate result of untrained soldiers facing an unknown enemy in the early, chaotic stages of the Korean War. But this was not an isolated incident. The Nogun massacre can help Americans understand what this "forgotten war" was really about. It was a civil and unconventional war that had its origins long before June 1950, and the official repositories of historical truth in Washington and Seoul have been lying about its basic nature for half a century.

Nogun village is located a couple of miles down the road from the county seat of Yongdong in a remote and mountainous region where a strong, indigenous left wing emerged just after Japanese imperialism collapsed in Korea in August 1945. A county people's committee (a ubiquitous political form at the time) took power from the Japanese and then watched as US civil affairs teams grabbed the reins of government from it that fall. The teams quickly re-employed Koreans who had served in the hated colonial police, as part of the establishment of the US military government that ruled south of the 38th Parallel for the next three years. After two years of political turmoil, guerrilla war emerged in and around Yongdong county, long before the "Korean War" began. According to a US doctor, Clesson Richards, who ran a Salvation Army hospital in Yongdong from 1947 to 1950, "Guerrilla warfare was around us all the time. We had many Commies as patients." The police would "keep an eye on them," he blithely told a reporter, "grill them and when they had all possible information, take them out and stand them before a firing squad. This wall was near the hospital. We could hear the men being shot."


Shortly after US troops joined the battle in 1950, the 24th Infantry Division suffered a "ghastly" defeat at Taejon, "one of the greatest ordeals in Army history," according to military historian Clay Blair. As backpedaling US forces tumbled southward from Taejon, they soon arrived in Yongdong. North Korean sources said it had been "liberated" by local guerrillas, something corroborated by the New York Times's Walter Sullivan, who reported that some 300 guerrillas in and around Yongdong harassed the retreating Americans. "The American G.I. is now beginning to eye with suspicion any Korean civilian in the cities or countryside," Sullivan wrote. On July 26 a Communist soldier wrote in his diary that US bombers had swooped over Yongdong and "turned it into a sea of fire."

The popular and guerrilla element of the Korean War has been lost from the collective memory, as if Vietnam were the only intervention where My Lais occurred. But in 1950 what the people in "white pajamas" provoked in Americans was as accessible as your barbershop reading table. What the Pentagon could not find was reported, for example, by John Osborne in Life. He told readers of the August 21, 1950, issue that US officers had ordered GIs to fire on clusters of civilians; a soldier told him, "It's gone too far when we are shooting children." It was a new kind of war, Osborne wrote, with the "blotting out of villages where the enemy may be hiding; the shelling of refugees who may include North Koreans." The commander of the 24th Infantry Division, Gen. John Church, said that Korea was not like the European battles of World War II: "It's an entirely different kind of warfare, this is really guerrilla warfare...essentially a guerrilla war over rugged territory."

Official US sources have always denied that any massacres of civilians occurred at any point in this three-year war. Routine denials by officers on the scene in Yongdong were followed by official military histories that blamed the North Koreans for all atrocities and by years of stonewalling by two governments--right up to the Pentagon's claim for the past two years that it found "no information that substantiates the claim." The offending First Cavalry Division wasn't even in the area, it said. But it took me exactly five minutes to find Clay Blair's statement in The Forgotten War, based on declassified unit records, that "the 1st Cav would relieve the shattered 24th Division at Yongdong" on July 22.

If, under President Clinton's prodding, the Pentagon proposes finally to open up the real history of the Korean War, I can point out a couple of places to begin. One week before the Nogun village incident, according to ten witnesses who spoke to a North Korean Army detachment that arrived there on July 20, US troops herded some 2,000 civilians into the mountains near Yongdong and then slaughtered them, apparently mostly from the air, although the account also said several women were raped before being shot. An internal intelligence memorandum two months later, sent to Maj. Gen. Clark Ruffner, suggested that the ubiquitous guerrillas could be dealt with by organizing "assassination squads to carry out death sentences passed by ROK Government in 'absentia' trials of guerrilla leaders."

The Truth and Reconciliation Commission in South Africa defined that vexing term "truth" in four ways: factual or forensic truth, personal or narrative truth, social or "dialogue" truth, and healing or restorative truth. The revelations of the Nogun village massacre establish all those meanings of truth for the courageous survivors who have pressed their case against all odds for years--those like Chun Choon Ja, a 12-year-old girl at the time, who witnessed US soldiers "play[ing] with our lives like boys playing with flies." For Americans, the forensic truths establish lies at all levels, perpetrated for half a century, but they also (in the commission's words) "reduce the number of lies that can be circulated unchallenged in public discourse." It is now up to others to take the personal truths of the survivors and turn them into a restorative truth, a requiem for the "forgotten war" that might finally achieve the reconciliation that the two Koreas have been denied since Dean Rusk first etched a line at the 38th Parallel in August 1945.

 

[qsaark]

There's tons of examples about the prosecuted U.S military personnel

Iran Air Shot Down - July 3, 1988


Summary: On patrol in the Persian Gulf, the USS Vincennes shot down an Iranian passenger jet that it had mistaken for a hostile Iranian fighter aircraft. U.S. Navy Captain Will C. Rogers III ordered a single missile fired from his warship, which hit its target and killed all 290 people aboard the commercial airbus. The attack came towards the end of the Iran-Iraq War, while U.S. vessels in the Persian Gulf had been patrolling to ward off Iranian attacks on Kuwaiti oil tankers. The international community was outraged by the American attack on a large civilian aircraft, but the Pentagon and White House defended the action. The United States claimed that the aircraft was outside the commercial jet flight corridor, flying at only 7,000 feet, and on a descent toward the Vincennes. One month later, U.S. authorities admitted that both the Vincennes and the airbus had been within a recognized commercial flightpath, and that the Iranian jet was flying at 12,000 feet and not descending. The U.S. Navy's final report blamed crew error caused by psychological stress on men in combat for the first time.

Details: An Iran Air passenger plane, Flight 655, was shot down by the U.S.S. Vincennes--a U.S. Navy warship--killing all 290 passengers and crew as the plane flew over the Strait of Hormuz in the Persian Gulf. Stationed in the Gulf during the Iran-Iraq war, U.S. presence was intended to escort and defend Kuwait oil tankers registered under the U.S. flag. The crew of the Vincennes, in battle with gunboats of the Iranian Revolutionary Guard that were harassing the passing oil tankers at the time, apparently misidentified the plane as an Iranian F-14 fighter. Tracking the plane's approach, the Vincennes radioed repeated warnings to the Iran Air plane not to approach. When it became obvious that the crew of the plane would not concede, the Vincennes fired two surface-to-air missiles, exploding the plane.

Questions abounded about how the bulky passenger plane could have been mistaken for an F-14 fighter plane, which is much smaller and sleeker--about a third of the size of the Boeing 747 passenger plane. However, due to the sand haze from the Arabian Desert that shrouded the Gulf, the approaching plane was not visible to the naked eye, even at the nine-mile mark where the Vincennes fired. Additionally, the plane was flying towards the warship head-on, showing a smaller dot on the radar than it would have from the side. Further adding to the confusion, the passenger flight had taken off from Bandar Abbas airport, which served both civilian and military craft and happened to be the center of Iran's F-14 operations. Any plane lifting off from Bandar Abbas was automatically tracked and assumed hostile until shown to be otherwise. No Air Force Airborne Warning and Control System or Navy Hawkeye sentry planes were positioned over the Gulf to provide further identification of the aircraft, leaving the ship to rely on its own communication tools and instinct to make a decision.

Several contradictions exist in the telling of the events surrounding the attack on Flight 655. U.S. Navy Capt. Will C. Rogers III had received orders earlier to stay in a position where the Vincennes could monitor the movement of the Iranian gunboats. When the Vincennes fired on the Iran Air flight, claiming that it was four miles outside of the standard commercial flight path from Bandar Abbas airport in Iran to Dubai, in the United Arab Emirates, records show that the Vincennes was actually inside of Iran's territorial waters, not forty miles south (where the ship had been ordered by fleet headquarters to stay) as Rogers and government reports had claimed. Furthermore, Flight 655 was directly inside of its commercial flight path, not four miles outside of it--as Rogers and the Vincennes crew also claimed.

The reason for Rogers moving the Vincennes so far away from his ordered post? The warship was purportedly off to defend its helicopter, which had been deployed--under orders from fleet headquarters--on a reconnaissance mission, to check out the group of gunboats hovering further north. Anti-aircraft rounds from one or more of the gunboats were fired, giving Rogers reason to approach; when the Vincennes arrived on the scene, lookouts reported that a few of the gunboats were headed towards the ship. It remains unclear whether this was actually the case: the gunboats likely couldn't see the Vincennes, with their low profiles and amidst the sandy haze hovering over the gulf; also, the gunboats were within Iranian territorial waters--firing on them here would be a breach of international law.

Unfortunately, that is exactly what Rogers decided to do. It was in the midst of this gunfire that Flight 655 took off, and was (as is routine) identified initially as a hostile aircraft by the Vincennes' AEGIS monitoring system. The first person to try to establish the plane's identity was Petty Officer Andrew Anderson, who sent out the electronic query, "Identify, Friend or Foe?" The automated response from Flight 655 came back as "commair"--a commercial airliner. Anderson tried to confirm this, but in checking navy listings of scheduled flights over the Gulf, Anderson apparently missed Flight 655, possibly confused by the Gulf's four different time zones. The Vincennes sent out the first of four warnings over the military emergency channel for the plane to change its course. Three subsequent warnings were sent out over the civilian emergency channel as well, although none were broadcast over air traffic control--despite the Vincennes having the capability. It is speculated that inside the cockpit of Flight 655, all channels were in use communicating with ground control, since the plane had just taken off. When Anderson again sent out the "Identify, Friend or Foe?" query, he received a different response: military aircraft. Rogers' decision to fire was made while under the impression that the query was correct--in fact, Anderson had forgotten to reset the system after the first query, and the response he received was probably from a fighter plane on the runway back at Bandar Abbas. Rogers held that, at the time that he ordered for the crew to fire, the plane was descending and rapidly approaching--in fact, Flight 655 was actually ascending, and its speed was holding steady.

Still more factors come into play. The captains of all of the ships stationed in the Persian Gulf were under specific "Rules of Engagement" at that time, with orders to fire to avoid being fired upon. The heightened response to aircraft was due to an incident the previous year when the USS Stark was fired upon by an Iraqi fighter plane, killing thirty-seven American sailors. Navy officials reported also that on at least eight separate counts, Iraqi commercial planes had flown over commercial warships in what they deemed "a threatening manner"--possibly leading to anxious crew conditions. In fact, the U.S. military later issued a statement holding the crew accountable for the shooting, but held that their actions were influenced by the stress of being in battle for the first time.

In the end, nothing in the way of punishment happened to Rogers and his crew. Rogers became a military instructor, and then retired in 1991. The crew of the Vincennes received combat-action ribbons. The air warfare coordinator on board, Lt. Cmdr. Scott Lustig, received a commendation medal for his ability to "quickly and precisely complete the firing procedure"--the same firing procedure that shot down Flight 655.

Source: Military Blunders - Iran Air Shot Down

 

[qsaark]

There's tons of examples about the prosecuted U.S military personnel

The Vietnam War Crimes You Never Heard Of

By Nick Turse (Mr. Turse is a Columbia University graduate student completing a dissertation on American war crimes during the Vietnam War.)

On October 19, 2003, the Ohio-based newspaper the Toledo Blade launched a four-day series of investigative reports exposing a string of atrocities by an elite, volunteer, 45-man "Tiger Force" unit of the U.S. Army's 101st Airborne Division over the course of seven months in 1967. The Blade goes on to state that in 1971 the Army began a four and a half year investigation of the alleged torture of prisoners, rapes of civilian women, the mutilation of bodies and killing of anywhere from nine to well over one hundred unarmed civilians, among other acts. The articles further report that the Army's inquiry concluded that eighteen U.S. soldiers committed war crimes ranging from murder and assault to dereliction of duty. However, not one of the soldiers, even of those still on active duty at the time of the investigation, was ever court martialed in connection with the heinous crimes. Moreover, six suspected war criminals were allowed to resign from military service during the criminal investigations specifically to avoid prosecution.

The Toledo Blade articles represent some of the best reporting on a Vietnam War crime by any newspaper, during or since the end of the conflict. Unfortunately, the articles tell a story that was all too common. As a historian writing his dissertation on U.S. war crimes and atrocities during the Vietnam War, I have been immersed in just the sort of archival materials the Toledo Blade used in its pieces, but not simply for one incident but hundreds if not thousands of analogous events. I can safely, and sadly, say that the "Tiger Force" atrocities are merely the tip of the iceberg in regard to U.S.-perpetrated war crimes in Vietnam. However, much of the mainstream historical literature dealing with Vietnam War atrocities (and accompanying cover-ups and/or sham investigations), has been marginalized to a great extent -- aside from obligatory remarks concerning the My Lai massacre, which is, itself, often treated as an isolated event. Unfortunately, the otherwise excellent reporting of the Toledo Blade draws upon and feeds off this exceptionalist argument to a certain extent. As such, the true scope of U.S.-perpetrated atrocities is never fully addressed in the articles. The men of the "Tiger Force" are labeled as "Rogue GIs" and the authors simply mention the that Army "conducted 242 war-crimes investigations in Vietnam, [that] a third were substantiated, leading to 21 convictions... according to a review of records at the National Archives" – facts of dubious value that obscure the scope and number of war crimes perpetrated in Vietnam and feed the exceptionalist argument.

Even an accompanying Blade piece on "Other Vietnam Atrocities," tends to decontextualize the "Tiger Force" incidents, treating them as fairly extraordinary events by listing only three other relatively well known atrocity incidents: former Senator, presidential candidate and Navy SEAL Bob Kerrey's raid on the hamlet of Thang Phong; the massacre at Son Thang -- sometimes referred to as the "Marine Corps' My Lai"; and the war crimes allegations of Lt. Col. Anthony Herbert -- most famously chronicled in his memoir Soldier. This short list, however, doesn't even hint at the scope and number of similar criminal acts.

For example, the Toledo Blade reports that its "review of thousands of classified Army documents, National Archives records, and radio logs reveals [the "Tiger Force"] ... carried out the longest series of atrocities in the Vietnam War [from May and November, 1967]...." Unfortunately, this seven month atrocity-spree is not nearly the longest on record. Nor is it even the longest string of atrocities by one unit within its service branch. According to formerly classified Army documents, an investigation disclosed that from at least March 1968 through October 1969, "Vietnamese [civilian] detainees were subjected to maltreatment" by no less than twenty-three separate interrogators of the 172d Military Intelligence (MI) Detachment. The inquiry found that, in addition to using "electrical shock by means of a field telephone," an all too commonly used method of torture by Americans during the war, MI personnel also struck detainees with their fists, sticks and boards and employed a form of water torture which impaired prisoners' ability to breath.

Similar to the "Tiger Force" atrocities chronicled by the Blade, documents indicate that no disciplinary actions were taken against any of the individuals implicated in the long-running series of atrocities, including 172d MI personnel Norman Bowers, Franciszek Pyclik and Eberhard Gasper who were all on active duty at the time that the allegations were investigated by Army officials. In fact, in 1972, Bowers's commanding general pronounced that "no disciplinary or administrative action" would be taken against the suspected war criminal and in a formerly classified memorandum to the U.S. Army Chief of Staff, prepared by Colonel Murray Williams on behalf of Brigadier General R.G. Gard in January 1973, it was noted that the "...determination by commanders to take no action against three personnel on active duty who were suspected of committing an offense" had not been publicly acknowledged. Their crimes and identities kept a secret, Bowers, Pyclik and Gasper apparently escaped any prosecution, let alone punishment, for their alleged actions.

Similarly, the Toledo Blade pays particular attention to Sam Ybarra, a "notorious suspect," who was named in seven of the thirty "Tiger Force" war crimes allegations investigated by the Army -- including the rape and fatal stabbing of a 13-year-old girl and the brutal killing of a 15-year-old boy. Yet, Ybarra's notorious reputation may well pale in comparison to that of Sergeant Roy E. "the Bummer" Bumgarner, a soldier who served with the 1st Cavalry Division and later the 173d Airborne Brigade. According to a former commander, "the Bummer" was rumored to have "personally killed over 1,500 people" during a forty-two week stretch in Vietnam. Even if the number was exaggerated, clues on how Bumgarner may have obtained high "body counts" came to light in the course of an Army criminal investigation of an incident that took place on February 25, 1969. According to investigation documents, Bumgarner and a subordinate rounded up three civilians found working in a rice paddy, marched them to a secluded area and murdered them. "The Bummer" then arranged the bodies on the ground with their heads together and a grenade was exploded next to them in an attempt to cover-up their crime. Assorted weapons were then planted near the mutilated corpses to make them appear to have been enemy troops.

During an Army criminal investigation of the incident, men in Bumgarner's unit told investigators that they had heard rumors of the sergeant carrying out similar acts in the past. Said one soldier in a sworn statement to Army investigators:

"I've heard of Bumgarner doing it before -- planting weapons on bodies when there is doubt as to their military status. I've heard quite a few rumors about Bumgarner killing unarmed people. Only a couple weeks ago I heard that Bumgarner had killed a Vietnamese girl and two younger kids (boys), who didn't have any weapons."

Unlike Sam Ybarra, who had been discharged from the military by the time the allegations against him came to light and then refused to cooperate with investigators, "the Bummer" was charged with premeditated murder and tried by general court martial. He was convicted only of manslaughter and his punishment consisted merely of a demotion in rank and a fine of $97 a month for six months.Moreover, after six months, Bumgarner promptly re-enlisted in the Army. His first and only choice of assignments -- Vietnam. Records indicate he got his wish!

Military records demonstrate that the "Tiger Force" atrocities are only the tip of a vast submerged history of atrocities in Vietnam. In fact, while most atrocities were likely never chronicled or reported, the archival record is still rife with incidents analogous to those profiled in the Blade articles, including the following atrocities chronicled in formerly classified Army documents:

A November 1966 incident in which an officer in the Army's Fourth Infantry Division, severed an ear from a Vietnamese corpse and affixed it to the radio antenna of a jeep as an ornament. The officer was given a non-judicial punishment and a letter of reprimand.

An August 1967 atrocity in which a 13-year-old Vietnamese child was raped by American MI interrogator of the Army's 196th Infantry Brigade. The soldier was convicted only of indecent acts with a child and assault. He served seven months and sixteen days for his crime.

A September 1967 incident in which an American sergeant killed two Vietnamese children -- executing one at point blank range with a bullet to the head. Tried by general court martial in 1970, the sergeant pleaded guilty to, and was found guilty of, unpremeditated murder. He was, however, sentenced to no punishment.

An atrocity that took place on February 4, 1968, just over a month before the My Lai massacre, in the same province by a man from the same division (Americal). The soldier admitted to his commanding officer and other men of his unit that he gunned down three civilians as they worked in a field. A CID investigation substantiated his confession and charges of premeditated murder were preferred against him. The soldier requested a discharge, which was granted by the commanding general of the Americal Division, in lieu of court martial proceedings.

A series of atrocities similar to, and occurring the same year as, the "Tiger Force" war crimes in which one unit allegedly engaged in an orgy of murder, rape and mutilation, over the course of several months.

While not yielding the high-end body count estimate of the "Tiger Force" series of atrocities, the above incidents begin to demonstrate the ubiquity of the commission of atrocities on the part of American forces during the Vietnam War. Certainly, war crimes, such as murder, rape and mutilation were not an everyday affair for American combat soldiers in Vietnam, however, such acts were also by no means as exceptional as often portrayed in recent historical literature or as tacitly alluded to in the Blade articles.

The excellent investigative reporting of the Toledo Blade is to be commended for shedding light on war crimes committed by American soldiers of the 101st Airborne Division in 1967. However, it is equally important to understand that the "Tiger Force" atrocities were not the mere result of "Rogue GIs" but instead stem from what historian Christian Appy has termed the American "doctrine of atrocity" during the Vietnam War -- a strategy built upon official U.S. dictums relating to the body count, free-fire zones, search and destroy tactics and the strategy of attrition as well as unofficial tenets such as "kill anything that moves," intoned during the "Tiger Force" atrocities and in countless other atrocity tales, or the "mere gook rule" which held that "If it's dead and Vietnamese, it's VC." Further, it must also be recognized that the "Tiger Force" atrocities, the My Lai massacre, the Herbert allegations and the few other better-known war crimes were not isolated or tangentially-related incidents, but instead are only the most spectacular or best publicized of what was an on-going string of atrocities, large and small, that spanned the entire duration of the war.

The headline of one Blade article proclaims, "Earlier Tiger Force probe could have averted My Lai carnage," referring to the fact that the 101st Airborne Division's "Tiger Force" troops operated in the same province (Quang Ngai), with the same mission (search and destroy) months before the Americal Division's men committed their war crimes. But atrocities were not a localized problem or one that only emerged in 1967. Instead, the pervasive disregard for the laws of war had begun prior to U.S. buildup in 1965 and had roots in earlier conflicts. Only by recognizing these facts can we hope to begin to understand the "Tiger Force" atrocities and the history of American war crimes in Vietnam, writ large.

 

[sergente rehan]

All this shows that it's not the first time in the history that such horrible actions have been taken out by U.S. armed forces.....what is the disgrace for U.S.A. is that hey ner punished these horrible actions why? they don't have the right to do all they want then simply excuse themselves (some time they even don't excuse)...they are not the superior beings!

 

[MastanKhan]

Even if saddam had moved out of kuwait the US would have still put him under sanctions and could of easily attacked iraq without international help.....sooner or later he was going down.

During the American television network NBC News Decision ‘92s third round of the Presidential Debate, 1992 presidential candidate Ross Perot was quoted as saying:
"...we told him (Saddam) he could take the northern part of Kuwait; and when he took the whole thing we went nuts. And if we didn’t tell him that, why won’t we even let the Senate Foreign Relations Committee and the Senate Intelligence Committee see the written instructions for Ambassador Glaspie?"

US Ambassador Glaspie:
"We have no opinion on your Arab-Arab conflicts, such as your dispute with Kuwait. Secretary (of State James) Baker has directed me to emphasise the instruction, first given to Iraq in the 1960s, that the Kuwait issue is not associated with America."




But you had no problem with bin laden defending your family-land when you needed help but now it his turn ,you want to turn him over.



It will only slow the attck on pakistan down...it wont stop until pakistan is impotent.

Hi,


Wake up my man----we didnot ask him to protect our family land---but even if we did---the job was done and complete---he was on the run---we gave him refuge and sanctuary---the debt if there was any was paid in full both ways. 10 years had passed by---russians were gone and done with---now there came a rule of terror within afghanistan---Bin Laden had left afghanistan / pakistan in the early / mid 90's---he found refuge in sudan---but then again went on a killing rampage in africa agaianst the u s interests---when the americans bombed sudan, he got kicked out and got refuge in afghanistan---we didnot have any debt to pay him---but then to top it all up came 9/11.

Bin Laden was not our guest---he was the guest of the taliban---plus there is no debt in the world that would make anyone seek the destruction of their nation, the killings of their women, children and men just to provide sanctuary to two men.

No foreigner has any right to bring death and destruction to some one else's native land to meet their personal agendas. Bin Laden should have moved out---IF HE HAD ANY BIT OF ARAB HONOUR AND DIGNITY LEFT, he would have laid down his life for the cause of afghanistan to prevent the american invasion.

Now to slow the attack on pakistan----are we pakistani become so stupid---is this the hallmark of our intellect that we are going to show the world---is this what the history books will remember us by---is this what our chil;dren will know us by---" the aatack was imminent---so we didnot do anything to preveny it ".

What a tragedy---what a travesty---now we are taking defence strategy to a new height---our new motto becomes---let us not do anything to dull the enemies advantage---let us not plan a startegy to spopil the enemies plan---the enemy has already planned---so there is no need to do anything---let them come---so that they can come and kill us---destroy our property---.

You know---you wonderful peole----these measures that you want to take for the wel-being of your country----why don't you take these measure first for protecting your personal wealth and property, the life of your children---your brothers, sisters, parents----the strategy of theislaimc world is do nothing---looters are coming to loot you---do nothing---it will just slow them down---also do something to excite the looters so that---they are not looking at you---do something big, so that they can divert their attention to you. Wallah----what a marvellous game plan from the upcoming warriors of islam.

 

[MastanKhan]

Qsaark,

I didnot expect a paste and post---riding someone else's bull from you. But then if you already know what the u s is capable of doing---then why not take every measure to prevent some thing like this from happening.

It is just like---you knew what the mongols were capable of---but then you still send them an invitation to visit your household as well. Wonderful.

 

[SurvivoR]

All this shows that it's not the first time in the history that such horrible actions have been taken out by U.S. armed forces.....what is the disgrace for U.S.A. is that hey ner punished these horrible actions why? they don't have the right to do all they want then simply excuse themselves (some time they even don't excuse)...they are not the superior beings!

And it will also not be the first time Americans will get away with all these crimes and murders in the name of
collateral damage. And I wonder if the current American or coming American generations from vast opinion making fields like media and other entities will have such strong conscience to condemn these atrocities committed by US since decades in the name of protecting their long-term interests. Will the Americans be honest enough to accept without (mincing words) the crimes by their mighty US army and their neo-cons policy makers just like they condemn and will continue to condemn the Nazis?

 

[dabong1]

Hi,


Wake up my man----we didnot ask him to protect our family land---but even if we did---the job was done and complete---he was on the run---we gave him refuge and sanctuary---the debt if there was any was paid in full both ways. 10 years had passed by---russians were gone and done with---now there came a rule of terror within afghanistan---Bin Laden had left afghanistan / pakistan in the early / mid 90's---he found refuge in sudan---but then again went on a killing rampage in africa agaianst the u s interests---when the americans bombed sudan, he got kicked out and got refuge in afghanistan---we didnot have any debt to pay him---but then to top it all up came 9/1.

Thankyou for the history lesson but you forgot to mention that Bin Ladin left afghanistan becauce he did not want to be involved the power struggle between the warlords.

Bin Laden was not our guest---he was the guest of the taliban---plus there is no debt in the world that would make anyone seek the destruction of their nation, the killings of their women, children and men just to provide sanctuary to two men..

Neither the taliban or Bin Ladin destroyed afghanistan that was done by the americans......You think its okay to bomb an entire nation for the crimes of two men?

No foreigner has any right to bring death and destruction to some one else's native land to meet their personal agendas. ..

Try telling that to the american regime.

Bin Laden should have moved out---IF HE HAD ANY BIT OF ARAB HONOUR AND DIGNITY LEFT, he would have laid down his life for the cause of afghanistan to prevent the american invasion...

I have to disagree.....if it had not been one thing it would have been another.
HONOUR AND DIGNITY......maybe thats the reason why the taliban protect Bin Ladin.

Now to slow the attack on pakistan----are we pakistani become so stupid---is this the hallmark of our intellect that we are going to show the world---is this what the history books will remember us by---is this what our chil;dren will know us by---" the aatack was imminent---so we didnot do anything to preveny it ".
What a tragedy---what a travesty---now we are taking defence strategy to a new height---our new motto becomes---let us not do anything to dull the enemies advantage---let us not plan a startegy to spopil the enemies plan---the enemy has already planned---so there is no need to do anything---let them come---so that they can come and kill us---destroy our property---.
You know---you wonderful peole----these measures that you want to take for the wel-being of your country----why don't you take these measure first for protecting your personal wealth and property, the life of your children---your brothers, sisters, parents----the strategy of theislaimc world is do nothing---looters are coming to loot you---do nothing---it will just slow them down---also do something to excite the looters so that---they are not looking at you---do something big, so that they can divert their attention to you. Wallah----what a marvellous game plan from the upcoming warriors of islam.

And whats your plan?

 

[dabong1]

It is just like---you knew what the mongols were capable of---but then you still send them an invitation to visit your household as well. Wonderful.

Why can't we carry the question on and ask...now you know the mongols are coming what are you going to do?......join hands with them...accept them as your rulers....or the fight?

 

[sergente rehan]

Bro you forget that they are Americans, they will never accept all those war crimes and about Nazis they only condem them because Nazis killed some jews more then 60 years ago....i don't understand why they always condem only Nazis actions gainst jews; celebrates shoa and other BS like the day to remember when in these last 60 years U.S., Israel, Russians & other nations have done horrible crimes against humanity! war crimes which are far away more Atrocious then those of Nazis....what have the Serbs done to the poor innocent Bosnian Muslims?? why the world don remember that? what have done U.S. in Vietnam? what are they doing in Iraq, Afghanistan and all the Muslim countries now days?! we Muslim have to wake up...lets condem these crimes against humanity, better to say racism, Discrimination and war crimes against Muslim world!! we Muslims are treated like jews back in 1940's....we must stand against all these actions!

 

[qsaark]

Qsaark,

I didnot expect a paste and post---riding someone else's bull from you. But then if you already know what the u s is capable of doing---then why not take every measure to prevent some thing like this from happening.

It is just like---you knew what the mongols were capable of---but then you still send them an invitation to visit your household as well. Wonderful.

I am a Scientist, and that is how we work. We fortify our claims through the pre-existing evidence found in the literature published be experts in the field. Judiciary also works like that; they make decisions based on the existing examples. I have pasted all this stuff so certain members know what has happened in the past so they can understand what to be expected in the future. This is not someone's bull, the writers are all highly educated people, professors and doctors, I am sorry but I have to give weight to what they say.

There have always been oppressors, Pharoas, Haman, Shaddad, Greeks, Romans, Mughals, Tatars, Ottomans, British, USSR, and now USA and at the same times there have always been few resistance forces. Though little in number and insignificant in force, they have always challenged the oppressors, have made remarkable sacrifices and have always rose victors. This is the promise of Allah, and the promise of his Rasool.

"Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not do aggression, for Allah loves not the aggressors. Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth not aggressors. And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers. But if they desist, then lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah. But if they desist, then let there be no hostility except against wrongdoers." (Al-Baqarah 190-194).

And of course, there have always been people who have put their heads down in the love of their wealth, family and worldly things and instead of worshiping Allah, started worshiping the oppressors of the time.

As Allama Iqbal has said:

Woh ek sajda jise tu garaaN samajhta hai
hazaaroN sajdoN se deta hai aadmi ko nijaat

 

[Munir]

War is never fair. But... those that advocate to be correct and democratic are fundamentally wrong when using violence. Suddenly Geneva conventions are passed cause Guantanomo is different... Suddenly lying the the UN is enough to invade a nation... Suddenly bombing factories is ok cause it is done by Israel. Suddenly mass murdering in Lebanon or Gaza... Suddenly destroying people (and I mean women that are pregnant, children and elderly like Sheikh Yasin) with chemical weapons or hellfires is accepted like candies...

So if you ask me... Certainly those nations that mark others as evil should try to see a mirror.

 

[Munir]

There aren't many that impress me that fast.. Qsaark, you are defining new borders and sharp discussions. You have the ability to understand the past and be able to use that in a very valuable way. Without being negative, you have the same logic often used by Malcom X's speeches. Sometimes the opponent has his ill defined reality. Shaking that up is pretty much the best option and sometimes it takes not only brainpower to achieve that but certainly a lot of guts. I had to say this.

 

[MastanKhan]

Qsaark,

If you are a scientist then you would understand this better---but before that---you are just riding someone else's analysis without your input.

Secondly---once you knew all the terriblwe things that the u s did in the past to other occupying nations or otherwise---why would you not do everything in your power to keep them away from you. Isn't that what common sense teaches us. Isn't that survival is all about.

You are a microbilogist---next time when you go to your lab---access the sample for bubonic plague virus without any prtotection---maybe take some home with you as well and share it with your children---did I get your attetion now----I dare you to do that---I don't think you have the guts to do that---you will never put your children's life in danger---you know what----take some extra samples and share them with people who agree with your post and tell them I brought over some deathly virus for you as a gift---come one come all----let us breathe it in unison.

I don't think anybody with any common sense would done anything insane like that----then I ask this question to anyone and all---why would you do something like this to your motherland----why would you incur the wrath of the world super power to unleash the demon of death and destruction upon you---why would you let the FOURTH HORSEMAN ride into your lager without putting any effort to keep it away.

Why is it that when we make decisions---our decisions are different for what we want for our motherland---than what we want for our immediate family. Why are we so different and callous towards the life and property of others---but them when it comes time for our children and our house and our money----we play with a different set of rules.


It is so easy to paste and post what Allah wants and what Allah desires---but never bring out in what context it is in. Never bring out the talk of strategy and tactics in how to defeat the enemy outside the borders---Qsaark---you are a good man---and life is a learning experience as well---this translation that you posted of what Allah desires---doesnot hold true in this case---not enough was done to keep the americans away from afghanistan---not every stone was unturned to keep them away from a muslim nation---muslims should have joined in eliminating al qaeda with tooth and nail from afghanistan, to keep the christian army from entering a muslim state----Bin Laden and Zawaheri---if they had an aota of islam in them---would never had allowed a christian army to be enforced upon another muslim nation afghanistan----here they were talking about amwerican army in saudi arabia----guess what---instead of eliminating christian army from one muslim nation----they allowed it to capture one more muslim nation---and are on their way to force control over another muslim country pakistan----they should have killed themselves---made a sacrifice of their lives to keep the christians away from another muslim nation. isn't this the ultimate of all the ironies---that the man who wants to keep americans away from his motherland SAUDI ARABIA doesn't give a damn when thiose same americans want to follow him to another muslim country.

Think about what I am saying----tell me something different----I have been hearing what you stated for the last 40 plus years----tell me something new to combat the foreign troops. Give me a strategy---show me a war plan---show me tactics---just plain rhetoric is cheap.

 

[BaburCM]

There is a thin line between the ethics of the Nazi's and the Americans. They proclaim to be the staunchest supporters of democracy and what have you... Yet, these are the same people that make a mockery out of these norms and values. Americans have time and time again proven that they are a bunch of hypocrites full of sheer lies. The difference is that they can get away with their wrongdoings by covering up and masking the truth. The usual rotten apple argument is enough to silence the critics. There is nothing civilized or humane about the Americans. The bitter truth is that the Americans are no different than any other power hungry empire that's about to diminish significantly.