US Army Shoot Unborn Baby in the Womb

[shukla_swapnil]

GOSH, when is this riot going to end. So much pain, so many losses.

Any ideology may win /lose US may win or Taliban may but there is something that has already been lost - Humanity Insaniyat

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

It really gets amazing when people start to realize that wars are a brutal business. The largest numbers of victims of wars are WOMEN AND CHILDREN. Innocent bystanders, particpants and sacrificial lambs to satisfy the altar ego of men and their machines.

A war is always someone else's problem---till the fire starts to burn out door frame. This war should have been avoided at every cost----tragically the warriors in pakistan and afghanistan had no vision of what this firestorm would bring to the region.

Did anyone in pakistan had analyzed the psycholgical profile of George Bush and Dick Cheney before the war and realized where it would lead a poor stone age nation into. I guess---the generals---retired and active were living in a pipe's dsreams---waiting for another vietnam---not understanding the cost of war on civilians.

You people over here being mad at the americans and challenging the americans for a death match---the blood of the innocent afghans is equally on your hands----when you wake up on judgement day and Allah asks you---what did you do to save my people from death and destruction---did you do everything possible in your means and resources to avoid war---what are you people going to say---what are you people going to say---every war monger after 9/11 is responsible. This war was avoidable---pakistan should have found a way to execute Bin Laden and Zawaheri and his cohorts---to keep america out of afghanistan at all costs.

You people should have raised the slogan---kill Bin Laden Kill Zawaheri---kick the foreigners out of our house---let them fight their own wars---save our afghans---save our brothers---save ourselves from the wrath of Allah.

Just like the sudanese did---kicked out Bin Laden after the bombings in africa---no islamic brotherhood obver there---survival of the nation is first and foremost.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Lesley Stahl on U.S. sanctions against Iraq: We have heard that a half million children have died. I mean, that's more children than died in Hiroshima. And, you know, is the price worth it?

Secretary of State Madeleine Albright: I think this is a very hard choice, but the price--we think the price is worth it.

Honestly, I think there is a major difference in the attitudes of Pakistanis on one side and Americans and Indians on the other.

On the US/Indian side, the media and vocal opinion is largely supportive of 'collateral damage' such as that inflicted in Iraq or Kashmir in the interest of the 'long term goal'. Indians on this forum often say that what happens in Kashmir, occupation against the will of the people, violation of prior commitments and agreements, atrocities - all these means are justified in order to retain control of Kashmir as part of India, because 'its the desire of a billion plus people'.

Many Americans, though not a majority by any means, continue to argue that all the violence and boodshed in Iraq was worth it, and even in the media the discussion about Bush's legacy has already been framed in terms of whether Iraq will be a stable country down the road.

'Down the road'? So if Iraq is a model democracy in 20 or 50 years we have cause to celebrate Bush's actions? Could an alternate means of action not have accomplished similar goals without the bloodshed and rise in extremism?

In this 'legacy writing' is an attempt IMO to rewrite this flawed chapter in American history in some sort of positive terms, to try and assuage the American psyche that all is well and even patently wrong actions canbe justified in some way.

In Pakistan however, perhaps because of what happened in East Pakistan, our media and civil society are bleeding heart liberals when it comes to cracking down on the Baluch militants, or for that matter the Taliban.

We must talk to them, we must negotiate, they are our Muslim brothers, we have wronged them through too little development blah blah blah.

Imagine if a Pakistani leader said that half a million Pakhtun Tribesmen killed, albeit a 'hard choice', was justified in the pursuit of stability.

We are moving towards justifying genocide with this rationale IMO.

 

[Rabbit.Rabbit]

And this is where, Mr. Agnostic Muslim, you lose your judgment.

Lets put aside East Pakistan because the racial overtones of that genocide are too glaringly obvious to be ignored.

Let us also stop fooling ourselves about the non-violent varnish that you are trying to paint the Pakistani state with. No sir. There is nothing in the ideology of Pakistan, nothing in the Pakistani culture, psyche or state policy which remotely suggests, even hints, a non-violent approach towards ANYTHING.

In the light of this, ascribing the complete paralysis of your state in the face of an ultra-violent, regressive and ruthless enemy to some bleeding-heart 'liberal' attitude is nothing but self-deception.

The plain fact is that the Pakistani state is unable to fight an enemy which claims to fight for the very same ideology which it seeks to represent. How can it, when its own people associate themselves with that very same enemy. Would it not tear the country apart? Would it not tear the state, even perhaps the armed forces, apart? That is the real dilemma.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

And this is where, Mr. Agnostic Muslim, you lose your judgment.

Lets put aside East Pakistan because the racial overtones of that genocide are too glaringly obvious to be ignored.

There was no genocide, there is no concrete evidence indicating anything close to the numbers claimed- this is a patent lie promoted by revisionist historians from Bangladesh and India, and has been shown to be a lie in threads in the history section.

This lie is essential for India to justify its intervention, to make itself look good, sort of how the measure of US success is now being painted in terms of what Iraq will look like decades down the road.

Disingenuous in and dishonest in both cases.

Atrocities yes, as are expected in any conflict, and to be regretted.

Let us also stop fooling ourselves about the non-violent varnish that you are trying to paint the Pakistani state with. No sir. There is nothing in the ideology of Pakistan, nothing in the Pakistani culture, psyche or state policy which remotely suggests, even hints, a non-violent approach towards ANYTHING.

There is clear evidence of that available in the Media, in the views of ordinary people in the media and in the statements by the political leadership of Pakistan.

In fact what you have offered is nothing but an unsubstantiated opinion, soaked with 'racial overtones' and prejudice, the sort of thinking that went into the figure fudging of the casualties in East Pakistan.

In the light of this, ascribing the complete paralysis of your state in the face of an ultraviolent, regressive and ruthelss enemy to some bleeding-heart 'democratic' attitude is nothing but self-deception.

The plain fact is that the Pakistani state is unable to fight an enemy which claims to fight for the very same ideology which it seeks to represent. How can it, when its own people associate themselves with that very same enemy. Would it not tear the country apart? Would it not tear the state, even perhaps the armed forces, apart? That is the real dilemma.

Oh there is State paralysis no doubt, and the a large part of the reason behind that paralysis is exactly what I described:

'We must talk to them, we must negotiate, they are our Muslim brothers, we have wronged them through too little development".

You look at the media, and the argument against decisive military action, in favor of the Shariah in Swat, is almost always couched in terms of the suffering of innocents, in terms of the use of dialog to avoid collateral damage.

A flawed line of thinking perhaps, but that is the reality of a majority of opinion in Pakistan today.

 

[Rabbit.Rabbit]

I think its best if we avoid discussion regarding Bangladesh, so moving on:

'They are our Muslim Brothers'.

That is not an appeal to liberal humanism. That is an appeal to religious identity. Isn't that obvious? The Taliban, however ruthless they are. However many people they kill, how much ever hatred they express for Pakistan, they can never be hated back because somehow, the Islamic identity trumps the Pakistani one in the minds of your people.

 

[H2O3C4Nitrogen]

Such events will increase the distance btw the coalition forces and the local population. The hate for US will grow to an unmeasureable mark.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

I think its best if we avoid discussion regarding Bangladesh, so moving on:

I wasn't the one raising the eternal bogey of 'Bangladesh genocide', so glad to.

'They are our Muslim Brothers'.

That is not an appeal to liberal humanism. That is an appeal to religious identity. Isn't that obvious? The Taliban, however ruthless they are. However many people they kill, how much ever hatred they express for Pakistan, they can never be hated back because somehow, the Islamic identity trumps the Pakistani one in the minds of your people.

That identity includes Pakistaniat as well.

There is for example tremendous outrage against the Afghans. Why? They are Muslims too after all.

Religion forms part of the identity, Pakistaniat the rest.

I didn't really 'label' this attitude XYZ amongst Pakistanis, I just pointed out that there is significant opposition in Pakistani society to using overwhelming military force (resulting a widespread collateral damage - lets say for now against other Pakistanis), which can be seen in its opposition to the use of force in Baluchistan and the North West.

 

[notsuperstitious]

I think its best if we avoid discussion regarding Bangladesh, so moving on:

'They are our Muslim Brothers'.

That is not an appeal to liberal humanism. That is an appeal to religious identity. Isn't that obvious? The Taliban, however ruthless they are. However many people they kill, how much ever hatred they express for Pakistan, they can never be hated back because somehow, the Islamic identity trumps the Pakistani one in the minds of your people.

Absolutely, whatever pakistani media i've followed, those who support these radicals under different pretexts hardly ever use humanitarian grounds, its always the jew or the hindu or the 'west' and a conspiracy theory. just taliban sympathisers, hardly bleeding heart liberals.

the true liberals call for the destruction of the ideology of taliban, read Fatman or Muse's artcles here. first it was the west that was responsible for taliban, then the indians and now the liberals!!!

 

[Rabbit.Rabbit]

I wasn't the one raising the eternal bogey of 'Bangladesh genocide', so glad to.

Its an appeal to ones identity, but that identity includes Pakistaniat as well.

There is for example tremendous outrage against the Afghans. Why? They are Muslims too after all.

Well you brought up Bangladesh, but never mind.

No Agnostic, it does not include Pakistaniat. That is because the Taliban do not claim to represent Pakistan, only puritanical Islam.

I also do not see any outrage towards the Afghans at all. Perhaps outrage towards the Afghan government, perhaps towards the Indian presence there, but towards the Afghan people? No. I see the same 'brotherly' attitude.

I didn't really label this attitude amongst Pakistanis, I just pointed out that there is significant opposition in Pakistani society to using overwhelming military force (resulting a widespread collateral damage - lets say for now against other Pakistanis), which can be seen in its opposition to the use of force in Baluchistan and the North West.

You stated that the Bangladesh 'episode' (lets call it that for the sake of carrying on with the discussion) somehow made Pakistanis loath to cause civilian casualties on a large scale. At the same time you accused the US and India of immorally causing widespread civilian casualties in order to pursue their 'dishonest' policies. This clearly implied that you were essentially blaming Pakistan's and Pakistanis' greater regard for the sanctity of human life for the lack of action against the Taliban. I am merely challenging this notion by pointing out that the reasons are quite different - they are an appeal by Religious forces (sometimes cloaked in more moderate tones) not to kill 'fellow muslims' - because it is immoral to do so according to Islamic law. This is rather strange considering that those who you refuse to fight are proclaiming loudly that you are kuffars - non muslims - who can be killed at will.

 

[qsaark]

You people over here being mad at the americans and challenging the americans for a death match---the blood of the innocent afghans is equally on your hands----when you wake up on judgement day and Allah asks you---what did you do to save my people from death and destruction---did you do everything possible in your means and resources to avoid war---what are you people going to say---what are you people going to say---every war monger after 9/11 is responsible. This war was avoidable---pakistan should have found a way to execute Bin Laden and Zawaheri and his cohorts---to keep america out of afghanistan at all costs.

War was not avoidable. Even if the Osama or his aides were killed or handed over to US, Pentagon had already finalized plans to attack on Afghanistan and topple the Taliban Government much before the 9/11. This is well documented and needs no further debate. In USA, the secret documents are de-classified every 25-30 years. However, Mr. Bush signed an order of not de-classifying 9/11 reports even after 30 years! what they want to hide?

And Mastan Saheb, please don’t bring Allah into this, because than there are so many issues that perhaps you don’t even want to hear let alone to answer. Suffice to say that protecting Muslims from the oppression of non-Muslims is also what Allah requires from us. He also requires Muslims to go into war to protect Allah's religion. If we agree with your philosophy, than the whole incident of Karbala will lose its meanings.

 

[RescueRanger]

A very sad and disgusting state of affairs, looks like Rules of Engagement clearly go out of the window, i was watching this excellent documentary on Iraq and the US peace keeping force there.

It really shocked me, an American platoon bust down the door of some random house and try to detain an old man with what is clearly a catheter in his body... Needless to say the pulling and shoving dislodges the catcher needle and through this (through the night vision camera) you can see the fear in the wife and daughters eyes... I have seen that look before, it is pure fear and contempt.

She keeps repeating in broken English, why... Why are you doing this? and the Platoon Commander "didn't catch the rank" replies: Cuz we are arresting terrorists, so what an infirm 50 year old with a catheter is a Terrorists...

Later they find out they had no Intel, no information and just busted down the door cuz it would look cool on TV. They just got a short reprimand from the OC and that was it... Just think of the damage done to community relations, hearts and minds...

 

[qsaark]

Especially in this incident, it was not like aerial bombardment or something like that. The woman was shot 5 times in her belly, suggesting the shots were not random, but well aimed. Yet some members are calling this a collateral damage.

 

[qsaark]

Clearly people are posting without going to the link posted. So I am copying the text from the link.

ALI DAYA, Afghanistan (AFP) – An Afghan army colonel whose wife and children died in a US-led raid demanded action against the troops responsible Friday as President Hamid Karzai condemned the killings.

The operation in the eastern province of Khost around midnight Wednesday killed the wife of Afghan National Army artillery commander Awal Khan, two of his children and a brother.

The troops, who had been hunting a militant linked to radical Islamist groups, also shot a pregnant woman and killed her unborn baby, which had almost come to term, Khan and a provincial health official said. The woman survived the shooting.

The mounting civilian death toll from military operations is one of the main sources of tension between Afghan authorities and the US and NATO-led forces in Afghanistan.

"The (international) coalition has to stop this cruelty and brutal action," a grieving Khan told AFP in the village of Ali Daya a few kilometres (miles) south of Khost.

Khan said he was flown home from his base in the eastern province of Ghazni in a military helicopter Thursday after being told of the deaths.

"I want the coalition leaders to expose those behind this and punish them," Khan said, adding that the Afghan government should resign if it could not protect its people.

Khan lost his schoolteacher wife, a 17-year-old daughter named Nadia, a 15-year-old son, Aimal, and his brother, who worked for a government department. Another daughter was wounded.

After the shooting, the pregnant wife of Khan's cousin, who lived next door, went outside her home and was shot five times in the abdomen, the army officer said.

She was taken to Khost provincial hospital, where the nine-month-old foetus was removed, he said.

"She survived but her child died. The child was hit by bullets," said Khost province health director Abdul Majeed.

Police said troops stood on the roofs of houses surrounding that of a militant suspect, and appeared to be intruders to neighbouring residents, who came out with weapons and opened fire.

The US-led military initially said four people killed by troops were "armed militants."

But a statement Thursday said investigations "suggest that the people killed and wounded were not enemy combatants as previously reported."

US military spokesman Colonel Greg Julian told AFP Friday it had become clear that the four were not associated with the targeted militant, who was arrested.

"It was an unfortunate set of circumstances where they may have thought they were being robbed or attacked and came out, and the forces may have thought they were associated with the targeted individual," he said.

"There will undoubtedly be some financial assistance and other types of assistance," he added.

In a statement expressing sadness about the incident, Karzai said he had ordered his interior and defence ministries, the intelligence service and local government to investigate and present their findings to him Saturday.

Karzai had "for several years repeatedly asked the international military forces (to) carry out their counter-terrorism operations in ways that do not cause civilian casualties," it said.

The Khost provincial council, meanwhile, stopped work to protest against the military action.

International humanitarian organisation CARE said in a statement that the slain schoolteacher had been working at a school that it supports.

"CARE strongly condemns the action and demands that international military forces operating in Afghanistan are held accountable for their actions and avoid all attacks on innocent civilians in the country," it said.
Anger after Afghan family killed in US raid

 

[Bane Blade]

This incedent will be waved day in day out this is a good tool for the Taleban to dictate their motive and recruit more and more people show this to any uneducated and he will believe your cause.