US Army Shoot Unborn Baby in the Womb

[qsaark]

You've tactically derailed this thread into 'Twenty Questions'. I haven't attacked you personally, but rather your flawed skills at comprehension. Go back to my first post and try to understand it. Until that time, you're only wasting my time and bandwidth.

You have not yet answered any of my questions. You want me to go back and verify your claims why? You gave me a long lecture on how things work in military, yet failed to provide with any evidence if they really work in the US Army. In addition to that, you again insulted me. Bezerk, you are good at posting pictures, stick to that skill of yours.

 

[S-2]

Not to engage in ad hominem attacks but do you really think that an op-ed by Nicolas Davies isn't sorta self-indulgent. Afterall, you could have written the same thing and then I wouldn't need to ask for a link to this loon.

OTOH, I can't wait to see who carried his story. Certainly not the Times of London.

 

[Beskar]

You have not yet answered any of my questions. You want me to go back and verify your claims why? You gave me a long lecture on how things work in military, yet failed to provide with any evidence if they really work in the US Army. In addition to that, you again insulted me. Bezerk, you are good at posting pictures, stick to that skill of yours.

Lol see what I mean about getting personal? If that's the case, then should I tell you how good you are at printing book pages and using them as evidence to back up your claims? Oh Qsaark, You disappoint me.

If you're concerned about my input to this forum, you don't have to look far. In fact, ask around from some of your senior members and administrators.

I haven't answered any of your questions because those are not related to my original post. I also gave you a comparison from the past about vietnam war vets and their treatment by the general public. That's exactly why necessary measures have been taken in today's world by U.S military to ensure that someone the public doesn't blame the Government for letting war-criminals walk.

Your senseless emotional bickering and lack of will to research on the matter is laughable to me. The debate started from somewhere else and now you're circling around Bush's policies. As I said, do a google search. I've been here long enough to know what 'Emotional' and over the top 'Sympathetic' posters like you are attracted to. Won't work on me until you learn some basic comprehension

 

[qsaark]

I'll rather leave it on the judgment of the other members to decide who is who.

Thanks for your posts though.

 

[Beskar]

I'll rather leave it on the judgment of the other members to decide who is who.

Thanks for your posts though.

Careful what you wish for, you might get disappointed.

And you're welcome. But I bet the forum could do just about fine without your emotional input. Thanks for trying though!

 

[MastanKhan]

War was not avoidable. Even if the Osama or his aides were killed or handed over to US, Pentagon had already finalized plans to attack on Afghanistan and topple the Taliban Government much before the 9/11. This is well documented and needs no further debate. In USA, the secret documents are de-classified every 25-30 years. However, Mr. Bush signed an order of not de-classifying 9/11 reports even after 30 years! what they want to hide?


Hi,

It is the same old argument that the pakistanis come out with again and again---you know what happens when one assumes---they make an as-s of u---me.

It is the greatest of the excuse that the pakistanis have always come with---they believed in it so much that they believed that was the ultimate truth---it is beyond shame---and on top of accepting their mistakes---they make blatant statements and stick to them at the expense of death to their neighbours---all the bruhaha---all this bravado ---all this chest thumping is always at the expense of either the iraqis or the afghans.

Do my pakistani colleagues never think any differnt than what they are supposed to---don't you realize that the truth that you people have been telling yourself has been a lie.

There was a line drawn in the sand in the first GW1---everbody believed that the u s was coming---did any pakistani ever think any different if the iraqis had moved back---nobody trealized that would have thrown a big monkey wrench in the coalition gears---could have delivered a coupe de grace to the americans---could have given a cause to break up the coalition---but no---we have already decided that they are coming---so let it ride.

We pakistanis also believed that the iraqis will beat the **** out of americans---they were battle hardened troops---that was the statement of our great Commander in chief---GEN Mirza Aslam Beg---guess what---that fool changed his mind within the first 48 hours after the reporter asked him that question again---what now sir---that idiot shamelessly changed his position---that is the calibre of our general in charge---he stated oh yeah---iraqis stand no chance---after looking at the american firepower they will lose---his job was to know about the fire power of the americans before hand.

When a commander in chief of pak army made such foolish statements---what could be expected from any other pakistani---they will no doubt use the example of their senior most millitary man.

What difference would it have made if iraqi army had gone back before the deadline---at least a 50/50 chance of a victory---and let the americans suck dust on the other side of the line in the sand---the coalition broken apart lay in dust and sands of kuwait.

Scenario iraq---scenario 9/11 big deal about the internal documents released after 30 years---I have to live for today---to save my nation today--so the I can grow strong.

You tell me---if it was your childrens life at stake---and your little son looked at you and said dad---help me---get rid of this monster Bind Laden otherwise there are people coming to kill me---what would Qsaark do---.

I know what Mastan Khan would do---I would rip the head of Bin Laden just for misusing my hospitality and threatening my family with destruction and annihilation---the santuary was provided to him just to live and respect my national sovereignity.

Dead bodies of Bin laden and Zawahiri would have left George Bush hanging high and dry---regardless of whatever secret documents he had---another monkey wrench in his plans.

Regardless of what they wanted to hide---there should have been every effort made on our side to counter that---Bin laden and Zawahiri could have been neutralized---this could have been the least we could do to put a temporary stop to GW's planning---.

What is it now---the supposed enemy plans something---and we say--we already know what they are going to do---let us not do anything---because whatever we do--they will do whatsoever they want to do. Is this what the great muslim warrior---the conqueror of east and west has come down to.

Don't people feel any shame in making these statements---is that how the great muslim generals in the past acted---is this all the depth in our strategy---.

 

[muse]

Too few men, Mastan, too few men with honor - instead their version of islam has them seething with hate, self pity, at war with reality and with Islam itself - they are an abomination. Two faced transparent moral pygmies. Oh wait, is that a statement of fact or a personal attack? Any Offended Islamist, you know where to apply. Operators standing by.

 

[S-2]

Another in a series of remarkable posts spread over a couple of threads. They've, collectively, been a pleasure to read and while there have been elements with which I quibble (even strongly as Truthseeker has) I can't adequately express the value I find within.

A wonderful post by itself above but there has been FIRE from the pens of Muse, fatman17 and, pointedly, yourself of late. They've collectively provided for some remarkable reading.

You've been right at the fore.

Thanks.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

Sorry--admins--this discussion a little wayward---but very very important.

During the first Gulf---even though u s had forced alliance through its coalition partners---many of the coalition partners were ready to jump the ship---if the iraqi army showed any notion of moving behind the line drawn in the sand.

The saudis were at the top of the list and right next to them were the french---the germans, pakistan and many others were ready to part ways. Europe never liked the u s interfering in iraq---the the problem over here is that Saddam had no interest in breaking up the alliance---he simply didnot have the common sense to understand that the americans would attack---and even if they did---it would be like a naval invasion. Saddam---a man who had not travelled to europe in maybe 20 plus years---had totally no clue as to america had---actually pakistani genaral had no clue what america had---and that after the immediate downfall of russian empire---for who america had prepared 40 plus years to fight.

Now let us talk aboput this---the super of all the powers in this world has prepared to destroy the russian army on the field of germany and eastern europe---the great russian army---that could position a one thousand solid miles long stretch of tanks----remember not front to back---but side by side----a thousand miles stretch of tanks---that is what the american atrmy was prepared to fight and had trained day in and day out---like there was no tomorrow---and thsi army at the zenith of its training---and the at the peakof its performance finds out that the russian confederacy has broken up and there is no enemy no more---and suddenly the fool--Saddam gets a hard on for his neighbour---he does what he does---.

As a teenager---I read books---a lots of books---I was extremely shocked into disbelief when I found out that when the armies of Genghis Khan were at the door of the muslim empire----the muslims were having feverish religious arguments about the gender of Quar'an in the capitol of the islamic caliphate under threat---was the Qura'an a male or a female.

The religionists were impervious to the threat that was posed from the hordes of the great Khan---. I was astounded and could not believe how that could happen. I was a young child---my beliefs were shattered---my heroes became damaged goods---I lived in disbelief for many a years----till the time came for the first GW. My fears didnot go away---the muslims were playing a game---they were playing a game of russian roullette---the problem over here was that it was against the americans---the very people who had mastered in this kind adversity. You have done your thing. The stakes are high---the cards are stacked against you---go away---there is another time to fight. But all went in vain.

That fool Saddam---couldnot believe it even during the second GW that the americans were after him---to take him out and neutralize him once for all. Now, when this is the calibre of the leaders of the world of islam---I really at times don't want to blame you guys---how can you do any different than what your lord told you to---must be all the truth in it---because he is the president---you know it all when you become a president---know it all by default.

You know what---I realy feel sorry for myself for looking at things different than my other pakistani brethrens---my life would be so easy---but then I would just be like a mass of protoplasm---floating in the fluids of destiny with no direction---without any control.

 

[Tang0]

Hi,

You know what---I realy feel sorry for myself for looking at things different than my other pakistani brethrens---my life would be so easy---but then I would just be like a mass of protoplasm---floating in the fluids of destiny with no direction---without any control.

Wow, first time I have ever run into beat poetry on PK defence forums... Guess there is a first time for everything.

 

[S-2]

Got my attention too. An awesome literary finish.

Very hip imagry.

 

[Tang0]

Deleted message

 

[RescueRanger]

You can always tell when a man is a great ways from God--he is always talking about himself, how good he is. But the moment he sees God by the eye of faith, he is down on his knees, and, like Job, he cries, "Behold I am vile." - Dwight Lyman Moody

My esteemed members, why is it that we always end up dragging Pakistan into the dirt and lambasting Pakistani members, why is it that certain members feel they have the self styled right to paint all with a monochrome brush?

Lambasting fellow members in a negative, self righteous manner. I really do not see why we as nation or people should have anything to do with Iraq, Kashmir, Afghanistan, India, China... People keep dragging Pakistan into the fray. On Page 1 Rabbit...Rabbit... requested that members refrain from including Bangladesh for comparative analysis.

I would now like to request, please lets be reasonable. There were some very good valid posts and in reality no matter what we say, rant or rave (we cannot change what has passed, or what will come to pass). Rather, a civil discussion on the Rules of Engagement, INternational Human Rights Law and the Universal Declaration of Human Rights & International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights are perhaps texts that we should be referring to.

This is not the first incident that has raised eyebrows, do remember the role in Afghanistan is a peace keeping one, according to the Commander in Chief of the US, the war was over 6 months after it began.

The US have published ROE's with regards to peacekeeping operations (Referring to US Army Field Manual 34-52 Chapter 9) I am including the link: FM 34-52 Chapter 9

And also : FM 100-23 APPENDIX D SAMPLE RULES OF ENGAGEMENT

Now according to this text a Solider may use reasonable force if:

a.(U) You are fired upon.
b.(U) Armed elements, mobs, and/or rioters threaten human life.
c.(U) There is a clear demonstration of hostile intent in your presence.

I doubt the pregnant woman met any of the above highlighted criteria.

Perhaps we can examine the role ISAF PRT's: Provincial Reconstruction teams are playing across Afghanistan: http://www.dtic.mil/doctrine/jel/other_pubs/provrecon_whitepaper.pdf.

ISAF like the US has been doing good work in development, but has been coming under increasing pressure by human rights groups and local villagers for knocking off a few civilians in the name of “anti terrorism” and “anti narcotics” operations.

It is interesting to note that ISAF do this date have not released their ROE's for peace keeping and security assistance, Why is it that ISAF keep their ROE's secret? ISAF News Release #2008-092 Insurgents attack leads to civilian deaths

That is a question, I suppose none of us will have the answer for.

But I put this forward, when do war's become peacekeeping operations or “Police Actions” (Enter Korea) and when do “peacekeeping operations” become “war's” the question is not as light as it may sound.

I leave that for others to decide, for in my opinion many injustices have been carried out on both sides of the divide and no matter what we say here today, it will not affect matters or drive change in the slightest.

Best Regards,

 

[dabong1]

There was a line drawn in the sand in the first GW1---everbody believed that the u s was coming---did any pakistani ever think any different if the iraqis had moved back---nobody trealized that would have thrown a big monkey wrench in the coalition gears---could have delivered a coupe de grace to the americans---could have given a cause to break up the coalition---but no---we have already decided that they are coming---so let it ride.-

What difference would it have made if iraqi army had gone back before the deadline---at least a 50/50 chance of a victory---and let the americans suck dust on the other side of the line in the sand---the coalition broken apart lay in dust and sands of kuwait.

Even if saddam had moved out of kuwait the US would have still put him under sanctions and could of easily attacked iraq without international help.....sooner or later he was going down.

During the American television network NBC News Decision ‘92s third round of the Presidential Debate, 1992 presidential candidate Ross Perot was quoted as saying:
"...we told him (Saddam) he could take the northern part of Kuwait; and when he took the whole thing we went nuts. And if we didn’t tell him that, why won’t we even let the Senate Foreign Relations Committee and the Senate Intelligence Committee see the written instructions for Ambassador Glaspie?"

US Ambassador Glaspie:
"We have no opinion on your Arab-Arab conflicts, such as your dispute with Kuwait. Secretary (of State James) Baker has directed me to emphasise the instruction, first given to Iraq in the 1960s, that the Kuwait issue is not associated with America."

I know what Mastan Khan would do---I would rip the head of Bin Laden just for misusing my hospitality and threatening my family with destruction and annihilation---the santuary was provided to him just to live and respect my national sovereignity.

But you had no problem with bin laden defending your family-land when you needed help but now it his turn ,you want to turn him over.

Dead bodies of Bin laden and Zawahiri would have left George Bush hanging high and dry---regardless of whatever secret documents he had---another monkey wrench in his plans.
Regardless of what they wanted to hide---there should have been every effort made on our side to counter that---Bin laden and Zawahiri could have been neutralized---this could have been the least we could do to put a temporary stop to GW's planning-

It will only slow the attck on pakistan down...it wont stop until pakistan is impotent.

 

[qsaark]

There's tons of examples about the prosecuted U.S military personnel

How much US cares about war crimes:

My Lai Massacre

Around 500 un-armed civilians were massacred in the hamlets of Mỹ Lai and My Khe of Sơn Mỹ village in South Vietnam on March 16, 1968. The victims were sexually abused, beaten, tortured, or maimed, and some of the bodies were found mutilated. Initially 26 US soldiers were charged with criminal offences for their actions at My Lai, but only William Calley was convicted. He served three years of his life sentence.

"Some of the people were trying to get up and run. They couldn't and fell down. This one woman, I remember, she stood up and tried to make it — tried to run — with a small child in her arms. But she didn't make it.” said the Army photographer Ronald Haeberle.

My Lai: Legacy of a massacre
By Celina Dunlop

Forty years on, and "My Lai" is synonymous with "massacre".

The killing of Iraqi civilians at Haditha has often been referred to as a modern-day My Lai.

The name is shorthand for slaughter of the defenceless, the benchmark of American wartime atrocity.

The murders of 504 men, women, children and babies happened in a northerly province of South Vietnam on 16 March 1968.

It proved to be a turning point for public opinion about the Vietnam War.

Yet, most of what we know about the event comes from a single, widely publicised court martial in 1970-71.

A young Lieutenant - William Calley - in Charlie Company was tried and convicted of murdering 22 "oriental human beings" in My Lai on that sunny morning in 1968.

Forgotten tapes

Media attention on Lt Calley's trial was extensive and the glare of publicity so bright it hid the wider, more awful truth.

Before that trial got under way, the United States army had, behind closed doors, completed an investigation of its own into the events at My Lai, and specifically into the possibility that those in authority had deliberately covered up a massacre.

Lt General Peers Dennis Bunning testimony

Convened on 1 December 1969 in the basement of the Pentagon, The Department of the Army Review of the Preliminary Investigations into The My Lai Incident, known in abbreviated form as The Peers Inquiry, was chaired by Lt Gen William 'Ray' Peers.

In just 14 weeks, the Peers Inquiry conducted a comprehensive and wide-ranging investigation into the events of 16 March.

More than 400 witnesses were interviewed, and their testimony was tape-recorded.

When the inquiry concluded on 15 March 1970, those recordings were boxed-up, stored and forgotten.

“ That day it was just a massacre. Just plain right out, wiping out people ”
Leonard Gonzales Testimony to the Peers Inquiry

In 1987, they were shipped to the US National Archives, as one small portion of a massive group of records of US Army activities in Vietnam.

There they remained hidden, never catalogued, never investigated, never uncovered - until last year.

I spent many months trying to track down the tapes.

Again and again, I was told they did not exist, but after much persistence, 48 hours of recordings from the key witnesses were declassified and made available to me.

And on 15 March, on the eve of the 40th anniversary of the massacre, some of the most powerful testimony will be broadcast for the first time, on the Archive Hour on BBC Radio 4.

Some of the interviewees' statements reveal the mentality of the soldiers involved in the massacre.

"I would say that most people in our company didn't consider the Vietnamese human... A guy would just grab one of the girls there and in one or two incidents they shot the girls when they got done," said Dennis Bunning.

"That day it was just a massacre. Just plain right out, wiping out people," said Leonard Gonzales.

"Kill everything"

The wider, more awful truth that Gen Peers uncovered, was that this was an illegal operation, planned and co-ordinated at Task Force level by Lt Col Frank Barker.

It wiped out not one but three villages: My Lai, Binh Tay and My Khe.

And not one, but two companies were involved: Bravo and Charlie.

Both of these companies were given the same briefing by their respective commanding officers, permitting them "to kill everything and anything."

"It's not just the people of Task Force Barker that are on trial... It's the Army, it's you and it's me... and it includes our country and our people in the eyes of the world," said Gen Peers, during his investigation.

He concluded that 30 senior officers had been negligent in their duty.

After the inquiry, 14 officers were charged with crimes.


But the only participant convicted of anything at My Lai was Lt William Calley.

Gen Peers also proposed new methods of training soldiers, guidelines for the treatment of civilians in wartime and new army leadership criteria.

His recommendations still influence today's army training manuals.

"The My Lai Tapes" are a record not only of atrocity writ large but also of heroism.

They are a record of how war can bring out not only the worst but also the best in people.

Above all they are a record of lessons learned 40 years ago, in My Lai, Binh Tay and My Khe - lessons that should not be forgotten.

Source: BBC NEWS | Asia-Pacific | My Lai: Legacy of a massacre