Upgrading Pakistan’s Special Operations Forces in a cost effective way.

[Adecypher]

@Adecypher That is an excellent question. And by that question I can begin to see you are getting to the meat of it. When people talk about SOF they often conflate many types of units which is a shame. You have specialized mountain units, you have ranger or recon type units, you have anti-terror unit (many different flavors), all clumped into one. That is a big shame, because these units are so diverse and so specific to their tasks and training.

When I think about our SSG I think of comparing them to US Army Rangers or to Marine Recon units at best. Zarrar has some specialization in anti-hijacking and hostage type scenarios. Rest are generally Ranger or Recon type units. SSGN brings in some port and water based training, so there is some SEAL type training overlap but limited.

Another thing people often don't realize that even in the top tier there is a pecking order. CAG and Seal (some units), as well as some JSOC special units operate at a totally different level to even their counterparts in Spetnaz or SAS. Some of the JSOC units I stated above operate in a quasi brute force kinetic operations that are rare for SOFs. SOFs are generally clandestine in their operations, but given US's spectrum control over air and space, it allows for far greater latitude in how these SOF units are utilized, which historically has been a big no no in SOF application. US can get away with it and pushes the application of its SOF units, and this gives them greater latitude of SOF application, which other countries don't have. But US only does this in an environment where ingress and egress can be clean. However here too there is no guarantee.

Now this brings me to your primary question. Cold war and post cold war we have seen few wars where adversaries of equal heft went at it. Read up on SAS operations during WW2 - those were truly daring ops in many cases well behind enemy lines. There was some SOF type operation in Korea as well, but not much to write about. Then there was Army Ranger and some SR units in Vietnam that operated in thick jungles in hunter-killer actions on VC/NV. In 1965 our boys (SSG) were air dropped behind enemy lines in Pathankot, Halwara, Adampur. Unfortunately that turned out horribly, and most were captured or killed. So yes there have been a number of operations where SOFs were deployed behind enemy lines with little to no ground or air support. Many did not turn out well, in fact I would argue as stand alone efforts they seldom amounted to little from a military perspective unless they were simple assassinations or snatch and grabs or recon. I am sure there are many examples and applications of SOF in areas where there is limited ground and air support, for example I would not be surprised SOFs operating in Africa and Philippines. There are a bunch of ops during ME ops, but I will not state those because those operated within the domain of full spectrum control by allied forces. But very difficult to talk or write about these (contemporary examples) as most will remain out of public domain, till these ops get declassified. BTW there is often too much hype around some of these ops, and their efficacy is often over blown and over stated. That factors into psy-ops which is another one of the core elements of SOFs.

Excellent explanation and you are correct that most SOF operations are clandestine in nature BUT given the US Spectrum control over air and space, the air support becomes a "force multiplier". US has DELTA Force, some says it is a "Ghost Unit" which operates in a very diverse domain and mostly Clandestine in scope.

 

[PanzerKiel]

I really commend your knowledge on the subject matter and if you have time I want to know examples (if any) where ANY SOF deployed against a formidable enemy where the surrounding area is NOT already secured before hand and there is NO air support to be available for a long long time.

Thanks in Advance.

SSG raid on Dras Cantt in 1965 is a good example, raid was led by then Capt TM... More than 300 Indian casualties, mostly dead...

 

[Metal 0-1]

I think in the very first video you posted narrates at starting around 2;44 mins and I quote "On there arrival (i.e. SAS Arrival) to the objective phase II was to begin 4 US F-18 Hornets and 2 F-14 Tomcat conducted a preliminary bombing run on a Target .... ) and it also says that because of the a very limited time window of availability of the fighter jets the SAS agreed to that time table by the US ... may I misinterpret ...



I tried very hard but did NOT find a "formidable enemy" ...

Is this any good?

 

[Reichmarshal]

If you want to measure our top SOFs with untrained mountain men/rebels/smugglers so be it. In terms of action against Russians in Afghan war, that was a guerrilla action (and the mujahideen were just as effective if not more - the Mujahideen were not SOFs in any sense) and I am sure both did fine, as they dominated heights, land and people. Not much an invading force can do in such scenarios, no matter who they are. Also it speaks more about Russian tactics than it speaks about our capabilities. But to somehow extend from that a view that SSG walks on water, that is your prerogative to have. With respect to Sri Lankan action SSG was not actively participating in a major/direct way (in fact I would argue that the PAF had more to do with SL victory than SSG). That war was won the old fashioned way. The Sinhalese SL Army took away the operating space for the Tamil rebels in the North (Jaffna P), while shutting off and effectively squeezing the Palk and Mannar straits (India's supply line for the rebels). It was not some daring landing on the Eagles Nest (ala SSG) that won them the day, but a long drawn out grueling operation where regular infantry, air and armor had more to do with the eventual success. I am sure SSG provided some training, perhaps even did some effective blocking actions (though I doubt it), but again to take that one point and paint a broad stroke attributing the entire war to SSG support, is, sorry to say a very simple, binary and basic analysis. God even average officers in Pakistan's (C) Staff College will laugh at the over sized view of SSG some have. Usually this over sized view is found within the SSG or people totally disconnected with war fighting. Serious people who have used the SSG arm, know the limits very well.

I don't buy happy talk, and Pakistanis have a tendency of doing too much of that. I have seen too much in life and experienced too much reality to buy such fantasies. If you read my post above again, you'll notice I specifically stated that from a regional perspective they can hold their own, but to somehow compare our SSG to top tier SOFs is foolhardy. Furthermore you also are comparing our SOF operations, that happen on our soil, or near our borders/logistics that are often little more than either SWAT actions or are combined military clearing operations. Also the so called FATA, Dir and Sawat operations were full operations not just SSG. In Sawat SSG was primarily used to hold on to some mountain peaks. Most of the clearing and operations were done by regular armor backed infantry. In FATA again FC and Regular troops backed by armor and air cav was used. The irony is FATA operations were not major kinetic events in the sense of direct action. There was some but it was mostly hit and run and IEDs. FATA TTP guys seldom maintained long term contact with our units. They were clearing operations where entire swaths of areas were deemed kill zones. It was hardly an SOF type of action. So again taking those acts and extending them to some SSG folklore is not accurate.

SSG applied in its limited role (reconnaissance, sabotage, assassination, blocking actions), meant for the units, and their particular training can be an effective support arm of an overall military operation. SSG cannot and has never singularly turned the tide of any of the operations you mentioned in your post, not even the Sindh anti-dacoit operation where almost the entire SSG was seconded to the DG Mehran force (included Sindh Rangers, SSG and regular army and air cav). Dir, Sawat, North and South Waziristan, Sri Lanka, nor Afghanistan. None of them. If you think otherwise what can I say.

Try applying our SOFs in any scale in a war-zone that is thousands of miles away, with ingress/egress and core mission execution. They you'll realize the dimension of how top tier operators work. It is a whole different ball game that operates at a level few truly have a sense of. You want to continue believing fantasies be my guest, but such rigor of thought does no justice to the serious business of war fighting and a forum for serious military analysis.

I will stick with my 4 point argument - it is about training, tools, planning and the measure of unit.
Lastly not sure why you feel so compelled to get personal. Speaks more about you than the merit of your argument. On the whole I have found you to be a reasonable person, but was disappointed in your approach on this topic.

I am also thinking it is just not worth providing any in depth view or analysis, given some members become so emotional and personal. I guess it might be better to stay quiet and just watch from the sidelines. But then again thanks to those members who took by views (agreeing or disagreeing) and read it dispassionately in order to perhaps glean some lessons or at the minimum get their minds engaged.

@Reichmarshal Apologies from before if I said anything that was distasteful or personal. Tried my best not to

My dear may I suggest that you try to summarize your posts, so instead of a lecture they become an interesting read rather than an academic exercise.
To err is human we are not here to lecture or force are views on others but to learn n maybe make ppl understand our line of thinking.

1. U start off by demeaning the Afghans and further blaming the russians for their poor tactics for their defeat in afganistan.
Would u state the same for the Americans as according to u they are the gift of GOD to us mear humans who could do no wrong n as I stated earlier they had the best of tech n weaponry on their disposal in afg n they other than the A- bomb and the kitchen sink used them all.
But the result is an abject retreat after 20 years of war.

2 ssg operatives unlike u lot are simple human souls like the rest of us Pakistanis but yes have done more than their share of superhuman feats.
U are simply attributing the ssg success to in ur estimation the ragtag nature of the opponent. But the simple fact is in more than a few ops the terrorists were lead by foreign sf personal Including indians, who also trained them.

While on the other hand the sole superpower of the world was defeated by the talbans with very little in the way of support.

3. If anyone could win a war by just air warfare then u.s would have surely succeeded in afg or even for that matter the ruskies would not have lost in afg. The simple fact is u have to put boots on the ground to fight n capture terrority.
Had airforce been the ans for the Lankans then before we stepped in the Lankan af was being guided and trained by the isrealis, using isreali kafirs, but they failed.
Only with the training, guidance and leadership of the ssg did they achieve that most stunning victory.

Again ur post is too long and the rest of it is mostly jibberish.
Hope u don't get offended.
Regards

 

[SSGOPERATOR]

Assalam o Alaikum

Watch from 19:09 to 20:00
Thanks
"We largely owe it to the SSG"
AlhamdUllilah
According to Global Firepower, Pakistan Army is fastly upgrading itself.
And even with such outdated technology, still operated at its best....

 

[TigerOfMysore]

My dear may I suggest that you try to summarize your posts, so instead of lecture them become an interesting read rather than a academic exercise.
To eer is human we are not here to lecture or force are views on others but to learn n maybe make ppl understand our line of thinking.

1. U start off by demeaning the Afghans and further blaming the russians for their poor tactics for their defeat in afganistan.
Would u state the same for the Americans as according to u they are the gift of GOD to us mear humans who could do no wrong n like I stated earlier they had the best of tech n weaponry on their disposal in afg n they other than the A- bomb and the kitchen sink used them all.
But the result is an abject retreat after 20 years of war.

2 ssg operatives unlike u lot are simple human souls like the rest of us Pakistanis but yes have done more than their share of super human feats.
U are simply attributing the ssg success to in ur estimation the rag tag nature of the opponent. But the simple fact is in more than a few ops the terrorists were lead by foreign sf personal Iincluding indians, who also trained them.

While on the other hand the sole super power of the world was defeated by the talbans with very little in the way of support.

3. If any one could win a war by just air warfare than u.s would have surely succeed in afg or even for that matter the ruskies would not have lost in afg. The simple fact is u have to put boots on the ground to fight n capture terrority.
Had airforce been the ans for the Lankans then before we stepped in the Lankan af was being guided and trained by the isrealis, using isreali kafirs, but they failed.
Only with the training, guidance and leadership of the ssg did they achieve that most stunning victory.

Again ur post is too long and the rest of it is mostly jibrish.
Hope u don't get offended.
Regards

@Reichmarshal I think my English is poor which is why my points don't come across, and apologies for another thesis. To your point 1: I was not demeaning Afghans nor have I in any of my posts (I am personally of Afghan/Pashtun heritage so that would be dumb). However I am also not going to cloud my judgement because I am closer in race, religion or heritage to a particular group. That would defeat any academic pursuit and objectivity in analysis. I was stating that you are attributing some God like power to SSG for performing well against the TTP types, who in my estimation are a rag tag bunch (some no better than smugglers and murderers). Also as I keep stating but you miss, all your examples of great SSG victories, were hard fought battles that had huge components of Air, Armor and Reg Infantry, without which those battles could not have been won. The thesis of my argument is and has been to not over state the efficacy of SOFs and in our case the SSG. My additional thesis which I will continue to express is top tier SOFs are a different level. SSG can be fairly compared to Rangers and Recon, not to units like CAG and Seals.

To your second point: Whether SSG people are simple souls or not was also not a point I could make, as I (unlike others) don't have the ability to peer in people's souls. I am sure they are if you say so. But my experience has shown that they tend to have an over-inflated almost bizarrely non-realistic view of their training, abilities and impact in any operation (I wish I could share some funny examples - but will leave it here). The only way I can explain that is that it is part of their training as they are often put into very tough environments that require a level of self belief that has to be completely assured. They maybe simple souls but they also are the first in line to take credit. Also huge differences in SSG outfits - some better than others, LCB (short course), very different from Long course, officer vs NCO or specialized training, and other differences exists as well, which I'll dispense with for the time being.

Your point of Taliban defeating the sole super-power is misplaced. I hope serious people on this forum don't buy this argument. The Taliban have not militarily defeated the sole super-power. The US has decided that the costs of continued involvement in Afghanistan is too high, and that they can meet their limited military objectives through other means. Taliban on military terms did not defeat the US, and I hope no one walks away with this belief. In almost every contact (most) with the US troops, the Taliban broke contact because they could not sustain it or found their units completely wiped off. That is the difference between a trained military and irregulars. It reminds me of the time when in Sindh after harassing the police in the late 80s, a group of Indian trained saboteurs, thought of taking on a PAK military camp. The results were devastating for them (they never took major direct actions after that and reverted back to hit and runs and anti-police actions). It is this particular thinking that sends young men to their deaths, while those of us left behind espouse their wares in faux guts and glory. These ballads are for the next crop to be cycled. (Ask me about Kargil and NLI and how another SSG super-star sent men to their deaths - under massive opposition from his officer cohorts in the Pak Army, I can write a thesis on that too).

I'll leave you with a quote from someone who knew about wars:
"No bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country."
-- George S. Patton

The Afghan war was always going to be about patience. I remember once reading a book where the author made a very interesting observation. He said the Vietnamese won the war the day they relegated it down to the denominator of an AK47 vs a M16. The day that happened the US lost the war. Now I will agree that is an overly simplistic view of the Vietnam war, but I think we can find similar interesting analogies in Afghanistan as well. The US has lost patience and interest in Afghanistan. For them East Asia is more significant, while trying to reduce the fiscal burn. That is the reason why they are reducing their footprint.

To your point 3. I don't even know what to say. You completely relegated Air power, regular infantry off the SL efforts in Jaffna, and attribute SL victory to some training by SSG. I don't even know why I am arguing here. Wars are not won by unit level tactics or training alone. Wars are won on the basis of much more. So if SSG training of SL was the reason why SL won (btw I don't know of large scale SSG SL training), can you please tell me why you fail to attribute to that war effort the following that Pakistan (non SSG mil outfits) did:

1) Strategic war gaming and planing (under the auspices of DGMO) based out of Colombo/Pindi
2) Air Force observers and trainers (forward)
3) Regular training centers set up by Pak Army for combined war fighting tactics
4) Spares and ammunition in the millions for the SL army
5) Al-Khalid armor (I think north of 20 units)
6) Emergency MBRLS systems which were very effective in large areas ops
7) MI's efforts as well

Bhai I am not saying SSG did not partake in this effort. All I am trying to say is that first it was one of many factors and assets Pakistan provided, and it (SSG) alone was not the reason why SL won. Funny enough you cite in SL that it was the leadership of the SSG that was critical in the war effort. Do you even know who the leader of the Pakistan's Military "advisors" in SL was? Do you where they were based out of in Colombo? Do you know their command structure, the arm of PAK Army they belonged to? Do you know who they were seconded to or liased with? All I will say is that an SSG officer was not leading that outfit, and I'll leave it at that it was primarily the regular uniformed bunch.

Look I get it. You have an emotional connection to the SSG. Perhaps a dad or uncle growing up gave you the nice warm fuzzies. I don't want to burst that sweet little, feel good childhood (which BTW growing up I too had - till one day when I was older the wise men of war around me burst my bubble). So in passing I'll disarm, and raise my hands and give you this argument. You won. Long live the SSG. You won the war here too!!!

 

[Surya 1]

Upgrading Pakistan’s Special Operations Forces in a cost effective way.

Pakistani Special Forces are one of the world best SOF in the world. Thanks to its past joint training with UK SAS and SBS and US Special Forces. They adopted their western counterparts training regime and added their own touch simply making it better.

Special Operations not only depend upon specially trained operators but also some special gadgets. We see our SOF community is still lagging behind in this regard. Yes budget is main problem. In this article I’ll focus on equipping them in a cost effective way and still providing them with quality gear.

We don’t have to equip them all at same time things will take time. Start by giving gear to Tier 1 units like Zarrar, No.3 Powindah’s Cdo. Batt. and Musa Coy. Naval and Air Force components are our small spear heads so we can equip them all.

*All the equipment will be low in price but good in quality and reliability. (Some equipment is pricey but not too much)

Starting off,

1. Helmets.

We know FAST helmets are being used now in Pakistan as well. But still we need to do something about old PASGT helmets used by Army SSG. They deserve better. We can start off by providing them all with FAST high cut helmets. These helmets also need reasonable upgrades.

View attachment 633417


These above Helmet setups are being used by Professionals around the world.

MICH helmet also allows couple of neat setups.

View attachment 633418

For this purpose:

1: 3M Comtac III peltor Two way (Protection + Communication) headset. Mount to helmet if not using helmet wear them with headbands. (600$)

2: IR Strobes for IFF or Distress or Marking positions. (You can through older MS2000 strobes towards enemy because of they are strong) (100$)

3: Counter Weights OR Battery boxes (For Powering NVGs) to balance out weight of NVG so that neck strain is reduced.

4: Use a white flashlight if you want.


2. NVGs/ NODs

For a long time our armed forces using single tube PVS-14s. No its time to move on to Dual tube night visions which provide wide field of view than looking through single tube. PVS-15 is expensive like 12,000$. As I promised cost effective Just buy more PVS-14s (Cost 3,000$ Aprrox Per unit) and bridge them into two. That’ll be around 7000$.

View attachment 633419

3. Optics (For Guns)


We do have optics like Aimpoints and EO-Techs but those are for short range battles. After 200 yard you literally can’t ID bullet impact. What if we want to shoot at like 500/600yard? Aimpoints don’t work. Trijicon ACOGs are expensive. So we want a affordable optic that is Bushnell Optics, Drop Zone Reticle Riflescope with Target Turrets, Matte Black, 1-4x/24mm (150$).
View attachment 633420

It’s not a massive scope so don’t worry.

4. Gun Upgrades (Reasonable)
Don’t you think our M-4s are bit old looking don’t have modern accessories which do look cool but they are very helpful.

• First and foremost, Rail extension (Available around 70-100$).

View attachment 633421
View attachment 633422

Yeah they sound crazy so why extended rail system.
Firstly, there’s the way it’s mounted - the KAC M4 RAS uses the original delta ring and front handguard ring, meaning a shift in the rail system (from gripping, rests, barricades) is translated to the barrel, affecting accuracy. Systems like the DD RIS II use a barrel ring or other method at the receiver end which means the handguard does not contact the barrel further down, “free floating” the handguard and resulting in little to no accuracy shift.

Secondly, you have more rail space closer to the muzzle. This allows you to mount accessories not only in such a way that you’re afforded a better grip on the weapon, but also for weapon lights to be mounted so that they cause less shadow (barrel/muzzle blocking light beam and limiting FOV) as well as glare (light bouncing off the barrel/muzzle affecting vision and giving away position).


And most importantly C-Grip OR C-Clamp.

• Better Fore-grips: There are in plenty at affordable prices.

• Suppressors: They come in handy in clearing out buildings/ Hostage Rescue/ Night time operations.(400$).

5. Battle Dress Uniforms:

Yes we are using combat shirts. But still not using padded combat shirts and pants.

View attachment 633423
Combat Shirt and Pants without pads used by Pakistani SSG Commando.


View attachment 633424

With Elbow and shoulder pads. Fire Retardant material. ​

Give this job to POF clothing factory.


6. Combat Boots:

There are plenty of tactical boots available on market at cheaper prices.(200$)

View attachment 633425View attachment 633426​

7. Misc. Equipment:

• GPS (Not for everyone just for team leader)

• Wrist Map Pouches

• SOFLAMS, Laser Designators to pinpoint CAS from rotary or fixed wing aircrafts.

• IR Strobes for IFF by your squad mates and Air Support above your heads. Visible Chem lights and IR Chem Lights for marking positions. Or they can be used to show your location to incoming friendly helicopters. Tie one end with cord and swing around in a circle.

View attachment 633427View attachment 633428View attachment 633429

View attachment 633431
A Marine Swinging IR Chem. light in Circle to give his position to friendly helicopter.

So pretty much it.

That's a Total of 10,000$ Generously per person.



Note: This article is based on personal views. Some of you are not going to agree with this.
Open for Criticism, Suggestions or Discussion.

• https://www.pewpewtactical.com/affordable-optics-that-wont-break-on-you/
• https://www.envirosafetyproducts.com/hearing-protection-electronic-headsets/peltor-ear-protection-peltor-headsets-earmuffs/peltor-tactical-->headsets-peltor-comtac/peltor-comtac-iii-and-swat-tac-iii-headsets.html
• https://www.cheaperthandirt.com/parts-and-accessories/parts-by-gun-----model/ar-15/handguards-and-rail-systems/drop-in-handguards/
• https://www.range365.com/how-to-buy-suppressor/

The best way is to make diplomacy and intelligence strong so that a country has to use force in minimal way.

 

[SSGOPERATOR]

"You might own the sky,
But Wars are won in the dirt"
So good luck with your.......

 

[iLION12345_1]

I mean no offense to any of the posters but this thread has become far too much speculation and guess work of what the SSG can, cannot or should, should not do. Pakistan doesn’t need the SSG to be US navy Seals or even similar to them. SSG is meant for our conflict and trained accordingly. I don’t doubt that they could be upgraded in both training and equipment, but the people on this forum aren’t exactly qualified to tell them exactly what and how they should do it, nor at they knowledgeable of the circumstances they train and serve under. It’s making the SSG look bad more than anything.

This thread gives me rather fanboyish vibes…”why is SSG not doing 650 tactical rolls per second while wearing octa-NVGs and holding 3 assault rifles in the most specific way to cover 360 degrees around them”…says The person behind the computer…

 

[SSGOPERATOR]

I mean no offense to any of the posters but this thread has become far too much speculation and guess work of what the SSG can, cannot or should, should not do. Pakistan doesn’t need the SSG to be US navy Seals or even similar to them. SSG is meant for our conflict and trained accordingly. I don’t doubt that they could be upgraded in both training and equipment, but the people on this forum aren’t exactly qualified to tell them exactly what and how they should do it, nor at they knowledgeable of the circumstances they train and serve under. It’s making the SSG look bad more than anything.

This thread gives me rather fanboyish vibes…”why is SSG not doing 650 tactical rolls per second while wearing octa-NVGs and holding 3 assault rifles in the most specific way to cover 360 degrees around them”…says The person behind the computer…

Exactly
All armies do stuff in their ways, and all of these things are kept classified.
So the only thing we should be concerned about is whether our named forces are able to protect us or not?
The rest of the stuff Allah knows,
They might have their own assets ready to be used if needed
And another thing, the amount of knowledge we on Intelligence agencies and Special forces is less than even one percent of the reality.
What happens in reality, politics, behind the curtain, etc only Allah knows and the people doing it.
Ever met an SSG commando or an ISI operative? If he's a close relative or friend of yours and tells you some inside stories, etc. he will make you look like a fool. All the things that you see on the media, internet, social media, documentaries, is just plain drama.

In the end I will say that after meeting some guys, who have worked inside, one thing I learnt that they're

AlhamdUllilah

prepared for everything, any enemy, any time, any place.
I once heard someone saying

Allah Ka Karam hai jab tak is mulk pr America khud hamla nahi krdeta(conventional war),
Iss mulk ka koi kuch nahi begarh sakta

Different times, different threats, different enemies(but same puppeteers)
In 1947 we had a different threat
In 1965 another type of threat
In '71 another type of threat
During Soviet invasion of Afghan, another type of threat
After 9/11 another,
And today another( Mix achar party)

So AlhamdUllilah
Our defence assets our doing great dealing with all these snakes who don't want our Country and Religion to survive.
And I don't think we should really teach them how to do it,
Sure we can give some advice to them( wesey tbh hum sab is forum pey time pass keliye hi atey hai sirf)

In the end

Allah Ka Karam

Hum kutey nahi martey, par samp Jungle ke houn ya asteen kai, hum sab ko nigal letey hai.

Sorry if I took this thread to another universe or spoke too much

JazakAllah

 

[TigerOfMysore]

I mean no offense to any of the posters but this thread has become far too much speculation and guess work of what the SSG can, cannot or should, should not do. Pakistan doesn’t need the SSG to be US navy Seals or even similar to them. SSG is meant for our conflict and trained accordingly. I don’t doubt that they could be upgraded in both training and equipment, but the people on this forum aren’t exactly qualified to tell them exactly what and how they should do it, nor at they knowledgeable of the circumstances they train and serve under. It’s making the SSG look bad more than anything.

This thread gives me rather fanboyish vibes…”why is SSG not doing 650 tactical rolls per second while wearing octa-NVGs and holding 3 assault rifles in the most specific way to cover 360 degrees around them”…says The person behind the computer…

Again we are missing the thesis of the point I was making. I was not saying SSG should do roles with NVGs etc. Infact the counter argument being presented here is the SSG defeated the Russians, the SSG won the SL war and on and on. Just mindless drivel of folklore. There was one main point I was making and some decided to keep missing that point. I realize I have written a lot, but do go read it if you can.

1) People give too much credence to SSG in battlefield operations. They are a small scalpel in an otherwise complex set of operations (even the ones cited by the counter arguments - Sawat, Dir, FATA etc). They are only as good as the 4 elements I stated. Men, training, tools, and planning (and how you apply it). That comparing them to Tier 1 operators (like CAG and Seals) is not fair and accurate (our SSG is more akin to Army Rangers and Marine Recon (if that) - and for our region that might suffice). I squeam when I see websites and lists of the top SOFs and SSG put near the top (keeping our minds fat, lazy and happy).

Pakistanis have a penchant for lazy thinking (we live on the edges - either too optimistic or too pessimistic - there is no room for the middle). We want to live in our make belief congratulatory worlds, where when anyone attempts to push against that grain they are ostracized. Either that or we attribute the enemies failures as our wins or angels coming to fight on our behalf. Then one day reality hits us and we loose half our country. Or another day reality hits us and we loose men and material to an ill-conceived Kargil plan. The architects go on to beat their chests as some great minds, espousing the glory of our brave men (who die), as we dust under the carpet any meaningful analysis for expediency's sake. I see that happening all the time, especially in the uniformed class.

I remember someone close to me once said. We are taught bravery, shahadat, jazba etc etc., and then when you hear wizzes and crackles of inbound all that goes out the door. Survival instinct kicks in, and training and muscle memory takes over. That is how you win and survive battles as a solider.

That comparing them (SSG) to regular infantry is not fair either and accurate. Each has a role and a purpose. Finally that the many battlefield wins attributed in a binary fashion to the great SSG is not accurate. Because when you peal the onion you realize that those ops had many parts, perhaps the majority (non SOF actions), that were material in winning the battle and the day.

I will stand by this observation, and people near to warfare will understand exactly what I am saying.
Thank You.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

@Reichmarshal I think my English is poor which is why my points don't come across, and apologies for another thesis. To your point 1: I was not demeaning Afghans nor have I in any of my posts (I am personally of Afghan/Pashtun heritage so that would be dumb). However I am also not going to cloud my judgement because I am closer in race, religion or heritage to a particular group. That would defeat any academic pursuit and objectivity in analysis. I was stating that you are attributing some God like power to SSG for performing well against the TTP types, who in my estimation are a rag tag bunch (some no better than smugglers and murderers). Also as I keep stating but you miss, all your examples of great SSG victories, were hard fought battles that had huge components of Air, Armor and Reg Infantry, without which those battles could not have been won. The thesis of my argument is and has been to not over state the efficacy of SOFs and in our case the SSG. My additional thesis which I will continue to express is top tier SOFs are a different level. SSG can be fairly compared to Rangers and Recon, not to units like CAG and Seals.

To your second point: Whether SSG people are simple souls or not was also not a point I could make, as I (unlike others) don't have the ability to peer in people's souls. I am sure they are if you say so. But my experience has shown that they tend to have an over-inflated almost bizarrely non-realistic view of their training, abilities and impact in any operation (I wish I could share some funny examples - but will leave it here). The only way I can explain that is that it is part of their training as they are often put into very tough environments that require a level of self belief that has to be completely assured. They maybe simple souls but they also are the first in line to take credit. Also huge differences in SSG outfits - some better than others, LCB (short course), very different from Long course, officer vs NCO or specialized training, and other differences exists as well, which I'll dispense with for the time being.

Your point of Taliban defeating the sole super-power is misplaced. I hope serious people on this forum don't buy this argument. The Taliban have not militarily defeated the sole super-power. The US has decided that the costs of continued involvement in Afghanistan is too high, and that they can meet their limited military objectives through other means. Taliban on military terms did not defeat the US, and I hope no one walks away with this belief. In almost every contact (most) with the US troops, the Taliban broke contact because they could not sustain it or found their units completely wiped off. That is the difference between a trained military and irregulars. It reminds me of the time when in Sindh after harassing the police in the late 80s, a group of Indian trained saboteurs, thought of taking on a PAK military camp. The results were devastating for them (they never took major direct actions after that and reverted back to hit and runs and anti-police actions). It is this particular thinking that sends young men to their deaths, while those of us left behind espouse their wares in faux guts and glory. These ballads are for the next crop to be cycled. (Ask me about Kargil and NLI and how another SSG super-star sent men to their deaths - under massive opposition from his officer cohorts in the Pak Army, I can write a thesis on that too).

I'll leave you with a quote from someone who knew about wars:
"No bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country."
-- George S. Patton

The Afghan war was always going to be about patience. I remember once reading a book where the author made a very interesting observation. He said the Vietnamese won the war the day they relegated it down to the denominator of an AK47 vs a M16. The day that happened the US lost the war. Now I will agree that is an overly simplistic view of the Vietnam war, but I think we can find similar interesting analogies in Afghanistan as well. The US has lost patience and interest in Afghanistan. For them East Asia is more significant, while trying to reduce the fiscal burn. That is the reason why they are reducing their footprint.

To your point 3. I don't even know what to say. You completely relegated Air power, regular infantry off the SL efforts in Jaffna, and attribute SL victory to some training by SSG. I don't even know why I am arguing here. Wars are not won by unit level tactics or training alone. Wars are won on the basis of much more. So if SSG training of SL was the reason why SL won (btw I don't know of large scale SSG SL training), can you please tell me why you fail to attribute to that war effort the following that Pakistan (non SSG mil outfits) did:

1) Strategic war gaming and planing (under the auspices of DGMO) based out of Colombo/Pindi
2) Air Force observers and trainers (forward)
3) Regular training centers set up by Pak Army for combined war fighting tactics
4) Spares and ammunition in the millions for the SL army
5) Al-Khalid armor (I think north of 20 units)
6) Emergency MBRLS systems which were very effective in large areas ops
7) MI's efforts as well

Bhai I am not saying SSG did not partake in this effort. All I am trying to say is that first it was one of many factors and assets Pakistan provided, and it (SSG) alone was not the reason why SL won. Funny enough you cite in SL that it was the leadership of the SSG that was critical in the war effort. Do you even know who the leader of the Pakistan's Military "advisors" in SL was? Do you where they were based out of in Colombo? Do you know their command structure, the arm of PAK Army they belonged to? Do you know who they were seconded to or liased with? All I will say is that an SSG officer was not leading that outfit, and I'll leave it at that it was primarily the regular uniformed bunch.

Look I get it. You have an emotional connection to the SSG. Perhaps a dad or uncle growing up gave you the nice warm fuzzies. I don't want to burst that sweet little, feel good childhood (which BTW growing up I too had - till one day when I was older the wise men of war around me burst my bubble). So in passing I'll disarm, and raise my hands and give you this argument. You won. Long live the SSG. You won the war here too!!!

@JamD welcome our newest Debbie Downer club member.

 

[Aryeih Leib]

Upgrading Pakistan’s Special Operations Forces in a cost effective way.

Pakistani Special Forces are one of the world best SOF in the world. Thanks to its past joint training with UK SAS and SBS and US Special Forces. They adopted their western counterparts training regime and added their own touch simply making it better.

Special Operations not only depend upon specially trained operators but also some special gadgets. We see our SOF community is still lagging behind in this regard. Yes budget is main problem. In this article I’ll focus on equipping them in a cost effective way and still providing them with quality gear.

We don’t have to equip them all at same time things will take time. Start by giving gear to Tier 1 units like Zarrar, No.3 Powindah’s Cdo. Batt. and Musa Coy. Naval and Air Force components are our small spear heads so we can equip them all.

*All the equipment will be low in price but good in quality and reliability. (Some equipment is pricey but not too much)

Starting off,

1. Helmets.

We know FAST helmets are being used now in Pakistan as well. But still we need to do something about old PASGT helmets used by Army SSG. They deserve better. We can start off by providing them all with FAST high cut helmets. These helmets also need reasonable upgrades.

View attachment 633417


These above Helmet setups are being used by Professionals around the world.

MICH helmet also allows couple of neat setups.

View attachment 633418

For this purpose:

1: 3M Comtac III peltor Two way (Protection + Communication) headset. Mount to helmet if not using helmet wear them with headbands. (600$)

2: IR Strobes for IFF or Distress or Marking positions. (You can through older MS2000 strobes towards enemy because of they are strong) (100$)

3: Counter Weights OR Battery boxes (For Powering NVGs) to balance out weight of NVG so that neck strain is reduced.

4: Use a white flashlight if you want.


2. NVGs/ NODs

For a long time our armed forces using single tube PVS-14s. No its time to move on to Dual tube night visions which provide wide field of view than looking through single tube. PVS-15 is expensive like 12,000$. As I promised cost effective Just buy more PVS-14s (Cost 3,000$ Aprrox Per unit) and bridge them into two. That’ll be around 7000$.

View attachment 633419

3. Optics (For Guns)


We do have optics like Aimpoints and EO-Techs but those are for short range battles. After 200 yard you literally can’t ID bullet impact. What if we want to shoot at like 500/600yard? Aimpoints don’t work. Trijicon ACOGs are expensive. So we want a affordable optic that is Bushnell Optics, Drop Zone Reticle Riflescope with Target Turrets, Matte Black, 1-4x/24mm (150$).
View attachment 633420

It’s not a massive scope so don’t worry.

4. Gun Upgrades (Reasonable)
Don’t you think our M-4s are bit old looking don’t have modern accessories which do look cool but they are very helpful.

• First and foremost, Rail extension (Available around 70-100$).

View attachment 633421
View attachment 633422

Yeah they sound crazy so why extended rail system.
Firstly, there’s the way it’s mounted - the KAC M4 RAS uses the original delta ring and front handguard ring, meaning a shift in the rail system (from gripping, rests, barricades) is translated to the barrel, affecting accuracy. Systems like the DD RIS II use a barrel ring or other method at the receiver end which means the handguard does not contact the barrel further down, “free floating” the handguard and resulting in little to no accuracy shift.

Secondly, you have more rail space closer to the muzzle. This allows you to mount accessories not only in such a way that you’re afforded a better grip on the weapon, but also for weapon lights to be mounted so that they cause less shadow (barrel/muzzle blocking light beam and limiting FOV) as well as glare (light bouncing off the barrel/muzzle affecting vision and giving away position).


And most importantly C-Grip OR C-Clamp.

• Better Fore-grips: There are in plenty at affordable prices.

• Suppressors: They come in handy in clearing out buildings/ Hostage Rescue/ Night time operations.(400$).

5. Battle Dress Uniforms:

Yes we are using combat shirts. But still not using padded combat shirts and pants.

View attachment 633423
Combat Shirt and Pants without pads used by Pakistani SSG Commando.


View attachment 633424

With Elbow and shoulder pads. Fire Retardant material. ​

Give this job to POF clothing factory.


6. Combat Boots:

There are plenty of tactical boots available on market at cheaper prices.(200$)

View attachment 633425View attachment 633426​

7. Misc. Equipment:

• GPS (Not for everyone just for team leader)

• Wrist Map Pouches

• SOFLAMS, Laser Designators to pinpoint CAS from rotary or fixed wing aircrafts.

• IR Strobes for IFF by your squad mates and Air Support above your heads. Visible Chem lights and IR Chem Lights for marking positions. Or they can be used to show your location to incoming friendly helicopters. Tie one end with cord and swing around in a circle.

View attachment 633427View attachment 633428View attachment 633429

View attachment 633431
A Marine Swinging IR Chem. light in Circle to give his position to friendly helicopter.

So pretty much it.

That's a Total of 10,000$ Generously per person.



Note: This article is based on personal views. Some of you are not going to agree with this.
Open for Criticism, Suggestions or Discussion.

• https://www.pewpewtactical.com/affordable-optics-that-wont-break-on-you/
• https://www.envirosafetyproducts.com/hearing-protection-electronic-headsets/peltor-ear-protection-peltor-headsets-earmuffs/peltor-tactical-->headsets-peltor-comtac/peltor-comtac-iii-and-swat-tac-iii-headsets.html
• https://www.cheaperthandirt.com/parts-and-accessories/parts-by-gun-----model/ar-15/handguards-and-rail-systems/drop-in-handguards/
• https://www.range365.com/how-to-buy-suppressor/

Sir you what to spend 15 lakhs (pkr) per soldier ? That's Insane

 

[TigerOfMysore]

@JamD welcome our newest Debbie Downer club member.

I don't know if I like being in this club. Maybe I'll just move on - getting too old to be part of a club. LOL!!!
Maybe I'll get a job on Quwa.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

I don't know if I like being in this club. Maybe I'll just move on - getting too old to be part of a club. LOL!!!
Maybe I'll get a job on Quwa.

IMO you're right on about our SOF situation. However, even though we are a developing country with very limited fiscal resources, I think there's a lot of waste and mismanagement happening, and our equipment purchases are suffering as a result.

Not Army related, but in 2018, it was estimated that 40% of the food we make is wasted due to a lack of storage facilities. This is agriculture -- i.e., one of our key economic generators. If each ton of food is worth $250, that's an annual loss of at least $9 billion USD for our economy.

So, you can imagine how crappy things are in other domains and institutions. Every single branch of our country is affected, and as a result we are not operating to our actual ability. If we were, I think we could have a tier-1 SOF, or something relatively comparable -- Pakistanis can be the best at anything, but sadly, we're always put in a position of being bested.