Upgrading Pakistan’s Special Operations Forces in a cost effective way.

[Super Falcon]

As far as i know our SSG is best updated force what we need to upgrade our marines orces with proper fourth force with tanks ships and aircrafts to make navy more aggressive in open seas without worrying coastal defence force

 

[Reichmarshal]

@Reichmarshal I think my English is poor which is why my points don't come across, and apologies for another thesis. To your point 1: I was not demeaning Afghans nor have I in any of my posts (I am personally of Afghan/Pashtun heritage so that would be dumb). However I am also not going to cloud my judgement because I am closer in race, religion or heritage to a particular group. That would defeat any academic pursuit and objectivity in analysis. I was stating that you are attributing some God like power to SSG for performing well against the TTP types, who in my estimation are a rag tag bunch (some no better than smugglers and murderers). Also as I keep stating but you miss, all your examples of great SSG victories, were hard fought battles that had huge components of Air, Armor and Reg Infantry, without which those battles could not have been won. The thesis of my argument is and has been to not over state the efficacy of SOFs and in our case the SSG. My additional thesis which I will continue to express is top tier SOFs are a different level. SSG can be fairly compared to Rangers and Recon, not to units like CAG and Seals.

To your second point: Whether SSG people are simple souls or not was also not a point I could make, as I (unlike others) don't have the ability to peer in people's souls. I am sure they are if you say so. But my experience has shown that they tend to have an over-inflated almost bizarrely non-realistic view of their training, abilities and impact in any operation (I wish I could share some funny examples - but will leave it here). The only way I can explain that is that it is part of their training as they are often put into very tough environments that require a level of self belief that has to be completely assured. They maybe simple souls but they also are the first in line to take credit. Also huge differences in SSG outfits - some better than others, LCB (short course), very different from Long course, officer vs NCO or specialized training, and other differences exists as well, which I'll dispense with for the time being.

Your point of Taliban defeating the sole super-power is misplaced. I hope serious people on this forum don't buy this argument. The Taliban have not militarily defeated the sole super-power. The US has decided that the costs of continued involvement in Afghanistan is too high, and that they can meet their limited military objectives through other means. Taliban on military terms did not defeat the US, and I hope no one walks away with this belief. In almost every contact (most) with the US troops, the Taliban broke contact because they could not sustain it or found their units completely wiped off. That is the difference between a trained military and irregulars. It reminds me of the time when in Sindh after harassing the police in the late 80s, a group of Indian trained saboteurs, thought of taking on a PAK military camp. The results were devastating for them (they never took major direct actions after that and reverted back to hit and runs and anti-police actions). It is this particular thinking that sends young men to their deaths, while those of us left behind espouse their wares in faux guts and glory. These ballads are for the next crop to be cycled. (Ask me about Kargil and NLI and how another SSG super-star sent men to their deaths - under massive opposition from his officer cohorts in the Pak Army, I can write a thesis on that too).

I'll leave you with a quote from someone who knew about wars:
"No bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country."
-- George S. Patton

The Afghan war was always going to be about patience. I remember once reading a book where the author made a very interesting observation. He said the Vietnamese won the war the day they relegated it down to the denominator of an AK47 vs a M16. The day that happened the US lost the war. Now I will agree that is an overly simplistic view of the Vietnam war, but I think we can find similar interesting analogies in Afghanistan as well. The US has lost patience and interest in Afghanistan. For them East Asia is more significant, while trying to reduce the fiscal burn. That is the reason why they are reducing their footprint.

To your point 3. I don't even know what to say. You completely relegated Air power, regular infantry off the SL efforts in Jaffna, and attribute SL victory to some training by SSG. I don't even know why I am arguing here. Wars are not won by unit level tactics or training alone. Wars are won on the basis of much more. So if SSG training of SL was the reason why SL won (btw I don't know of large scale SSG SL training), can you please tell me why you fail to attribute to that war effort the following that Pakistan (non SSG mil outfits) did:

1) Strategic war gaming and planing (under the auspices of DGMO) based out of Colombo/Pindi
2) Air Force observers and trainers (forward)
3) Regular training centers set up by Pak Army for combined war fighting tactics
4) Spares and ammunition in the millions for the SL army
5) Al-Khalid armor (I think north of 20 units)
6) Emergency MBRLS systems which were very effective in large areas ops
7) MI's efforts as well

Bhai I am not saying SSG did not partake in this effort. All I am trying to say is that first it was one of many factors and assets Pakistan provided, and it (SSG) alone was not the reason why SL won. Funny enough you cite in SL that it was the leadership of the SSG that was critical in the war effort. Do you even know who the leader of the Pakistan's Military "advisors" in SL was? Do you where they were based out of in Colombo? Do you know their command structure, the arm of PAK Army they belonged to? Do you know who they were seconded to or liased with? All I will say is that an SSG officer was not leading that outfit, and I'll leave it at that it was primarily the regular uniformed bunch.

Look I get it. You have an emotional connection to the SSG. Perhaps a dad or uncle growing up gave you the nice warm fuzzies. I don't want to burst that sweet little, feel good childhood (which BTW growing up I too had - till one day when I was older the wise men of war around me burst my bubble). So in passing I'll disarm, and raise my hands and give you this argument. You won. Long live the SSG. You won the war here too!!!

to summarise ur whole post in a simple sentence "you contradict yourself again n again". you say one thing but do the exact opposite.
u say ur not demeaning the talibans or the SSG. if u go through ur post again u will ( and this time I would suggest slowly) see a huge gulf between wt u say and actually mean.
Afghan heritage counts for squat here as the huge damage that the Afghans themselves have caused to Afghanistan is unprecedented. they don't need enemies when they have each other.

we seem to be going around in circles even though u complain of me not being able to comprehend ur eng. but the fact of the matter is u can't seem to fathom nor comprehend my posts n the result is that u keep on harping the same things again n again. even though out of courtesy I answered the parts worth answering not once but twice.
So I say it again n can't stress enough that u plz go through my posts again but slowly.

1.even though it seems difficult for you to come to terms with the American defeat in afg, but it is wt it is, can't put it any other way.
Afg from the very onset was always going to be a war of attrition and it turned out to be exactly that.
Due to the huge disparity between the two warring parties across the whole spectrum. So like most other wars of attrition the ppl of the land won and the invading force lost as they could not sustain it for an extended period of time.

2. you seriously are at a loss and need to go and consult ur notes again (or maybe an uncle who might have been their n done that). to mention SSG as second teir sf outfit and compare it equal to rangers. You have no idea about the role or the deployment of these sf outfits.
for ur info lcb was formed exactly on the pattern of us rangers to bridge the gap between the regular army units and SSG.
SSG was n is the tip of the spear, always first into a battle, followed by lcb, which are followed by the infantry which is deployed in a holding pattern.
3. u in ur post were negating the role of ground forces in the sl conflict and attributing it all the airpower alone, now ur contradicting urself again, in fact, have done a complete about-face on the whole matter n instead of admitting ur mistake and moving on are sinking deeper into the hole u have dug urself in.
no war has yet been won on air power alone u need boots on the ground to fight and take back territory.
like quite a few armed forces around the world, We trained the lankans and we had personal stationed as "advisors" down to company level during the lankan army battles with the tamils and most of PA personal in the front lines were SSG personal.

somehow it seems difficult for u to come to terms with the fact that PAK armed forces is the only armed forces in the world to have successfully completed two CT operations in modern history.

finally, I feel no affiliation or attachment to any outfit. my affiliation is Pakistan Army and my love is Pakistan. If I were to feel affiliated to anything in PA then it should be with 2 EB that my father commanded or 19 Punjab or 10 FF that my great grandfather raised and my grandfather and his brother commanded and also was the col. commandant of the unit, which my uncles also happen to command.

I just state the obvious that u happen to miss.

 

[Adecypher]

Exactly
All armies do stuff in their ways, and all of these things are kept classified.
So the only thing we should be concerned about is whether our named forces are able to protect us or not?
The rest of the stuff Allah knows,
They might have their own assets ready to be used if needed
And another thing, the amount of knowledge we on Intelligence agencies and Special forces is less than even one percent of the reality.
What happens in reality, politics, behind the curtain, etc only Allah knows and the people doing it.
Ever met an SSG commando or an ISI operative? If he's a close relative or friend of yours and tells you some inside stories, etc. he will make you look like a fool. All the things that you see on the media, internet, social media, documentaries, is just plain drama.

In the end I will say that after meeting some guys, who have worked inside, one thing I learnt that they're

AlhamdUllilah

prepared for everything, any enemy, any time, any place.
I once heard someone saying

Allah Ka Karam hai jab tak is mulk pr America khud hamla nahi krdeta(conventional war),
Iss mulk ka koi kuch nahi begarh sakta

Different times, different threats, different enemies(but same puppeteers)
In 1947 we had a different threat
In 1965 another type of threat
In '71 another type of threat
During Soviet invasion of Afghan, another type of threat
After 9/11 another,
And today another( Mix achar party)

So AlhamdUllilah
Our defence assets our doing great dealing with all these snakes who don't want our Country and Religion to survive.
And I don't think we should really teach them how to do it,
Sure we can give some advice to them( wesey tbh hum sab is forum pey time pass keliye hi atey hai sirf)

In the end

Allah Ka Karam

Hum kutey nahi martey, par samp Jungle ke houn ya asteen kai, hum sab ko nigal letey hai.

Sorry if I took this thread to another universe or spoke too much

JazakAllah

Without getting myself too emotional and seeing the last decade or so of conflicts between conventional armies with high tech equipment and air support vs. people wearing sandals and having AK 47s you MUST not discount the fact of being "ready and willing whenever required to lay your life defending in the path of Allah SWT"...THIS one FACT to me gives a "light years" difference in combat because on one side you have the best of technology but NOT the WILL in majority to sacrifice your life...with "jazb e shahadat" on the menu you can defeat and prevail over your adversaries with better training and high tech gear...to a muslim soldier the biggest "force multiplier" is "jazba e shahadat" because he/she knows that "Ghebi Madad" of ALLAH SWT will surely arrive for him...

 

[Sifar zero]

IMO you're right on about our SOF situation. However, even though we are a developing country with very limited fiscal resources, I think there's a lot of waste and mismanagement happening, and our equipment purchases are suffering as a result.

Not Army related, but in 2018, it was estimated that 40% of the food we make is wasted due to a lack of storage facilities. This is agriculture -- i.e., one of our key economic generators. If each ton of food is worth $250, that's an annual loss of at least $9 billion USD for our economy.

So, you can imagine how crappy things are in other domains and institutions. Every single branch of our country is affected, and as a result we are not operating to our actual ability. If we were, I think we could have a tier-1 SOF, or something relatively comparable -- Pakistanis can be the best at anything, but sadly, we're always put in a position of being bested.

So how is Quwa?
I really liked your article on PA transforming into a COIN force but since then have not written any article on PA.

 

[iLION12345_1]

Again we are missing the thesis of the point I was making. I was not saying SSG should do roles with NVGs etc. Infact the counter argument being presented here is the SSG defeated the Russians, the SSG won the SL war and on and on. Just mindless drivel of folklore. There was one main point I was making and some decided to keep missing that point. I realize I have written a lot, but do go read it if you can.

1) People give too much credence to SSG in battlefield operations. They are a small scalpel in an otherwise complex set of operations (even the ones cited by the counter arguments - Sawat, Dir, FATA etc). They are only as good as the 4 elements I stated. Men, training, tools, and planning (and how you apply it). That comparing them to Tier 1 operators (like CAG and Seals) is not fair and accurate (our SSG is more akin to Army Rangers and Marine Recon (if that) - and for our region that might suffice). I squeam when I see websites and lists of the top SOFs and SSG put near the top (keeping our minds fat, lazy and happy).

Pakistanis have a penchant for lazy thinking (we live on the edges - either too optimistic or too pessimistic - there is no room for the middle). We want to live in our make belief congratulatory worlds, where when anyone attempts to push against that grain they are ostracized. Either that or we attribute the enemies failures as our wins or angels coming to fight on our behalf. Then one day reality hits us and we loose half our country. Or another day reality hits us and we loose men and material to an ill-conceived Kargil plan. The architects go on to beat their chests as some great minds, espousing the glory of our brave men (who die), as we dust under the carpet any meaningful analysis for expediency's sake. I see that happening all the time, especially in the uniformed class.

I remember someone close to me once said. We are taught bravery, shahadat, jazba etc etc., and then when you hear wizzes and crackles of inbound all that goes out the door. Survival instinct kicks in, and training and muscle memory takes over. That is how you win and survive battles as a solider.

That comparing them (SSG) to regular infantry is not fair either and accurate. Each has a role and a purpose. Finally that the many battlefield wins attributed in a binary fashion to the great SSG is not accurate. Because when you peal the onion you realize that those ops had many parts, perhaps the majority (non SOF actions), that were material in winning the battle and the day.

I will stand by this observation, and people near to warfare will understand exactly what I am saying.
Thank You.

Don’t take what I said seriously, it’s all in good fun, always good to see different opinions here as long as they’re presented rationally, it’s a discussion forum after all.

My comment was for the times where people overestimate or underestimate the SSG simply because they think they can make the system better, but don’t take into account the circumstances that would stop such a system from coming into place.

I too agree that our SFs can be upgraded in cost effective ways and that time and effort is being wasted, however such long, well worded essays are just words at the end of the day. Rarely are they applicable to real life because they generalize every member of a group, as you have done as well, by no fault of your own. As one has to make such generalizations to present ideal solution. But any solution you and I could present is going to be far from realistic or ideal because we don’t know enough. That’s why in my opinion sometimes it’s better to just not comment too much on things that are more speculative than factual, we can hope for improvement after we mention our opinion, if others aren’t willing to agree with it, best not to try and rub it in because not everyone is as open to them.

 

[TigerOfMysore]

IMO you're right on about our SOF situation. However, even though we are a developing country with very limited fiscal resources, I think there's a lot of waste and mismanagement happening, and our equipment purchases are suffering as a result.

Not Army related, but in 2018, it was estimated that 40% of the food we make is wasted due to a lack of storage facilities. This is agriculture -- i.e., one of our key economic generators. If each ton of food is worth $250, that's an annual loss of at least $9 billion USD for our economy.

So, you can imagine how crappy things are in other domains and institutions. Every single branch of our country is affected, and as a result we are not operating to our actual ability. If we were, I think we could have a tier-1 SOF, or something relatively comparable -- Pakistanis can be the best at anything, but sadly, we're always put in a position of being bested.

Bilal I am intimately aware of this business. Farm to market is 40% - another 30% in the market. Total yield loss is nearer to 70%.

to summarise ur whole post in a simple sentence "you contradict yourself again n again". you say one thing but do the exact opposite.
u say ur not demeaning the talibans or the SSG. if u go through ur post again u will ( and this time I would suggest slowly) see a huge gulf between wt u say and actually mean.
Afghan heritage counts for squat here as the huge damage that the Afghans themselves have caused to Afghanistan is unprecedented. they don't need enemies when they have each other.

we seem to be going around in circles even though u complain of me not being able to comprehend ur eng. but the fact of the matter is u cant seem to fathom nor comprehend my posts n the result is that u keep on harping the same things again n again. even though out of courtesy I answered the parts worth answering not once but twice.
So I say it again n cant stress enough that u plz go through my posts again but slowly.

I'll go read your posts again. This time slowly. Like I said English is not my strong suit. Feel free to re-read mine as well. Online often a lot is missed as opposed to when one talks face to face. Perhaps one day we'll both get to get our thoughts out more clearer, face to face. Best regards.

 

[TigerOfMysore]

to summarise ur whole post in a simple sentence "you contradict yourself again n again". you say one thing but do the exact opposite.
u say ur not demeaning the talibans or the SSG. if u go through ur post again u will ( and this time I would suggest slowly) see a huge gulf between wt u say and actually mean.
Afghan heritage counts for squat here as the huge damage that the Afghans themselves have caused to Afghanistan is unprecedented. they don't need enemies when they have each other.

we seem to be going around in circles even though u complain of me not being able to comprehend ur eng. but the fact of the matter is u can't seem to fathom nor comprehend my posts n the result is that u keep on harping the same things again n again. even though out of courtesy I answered the parts worth answering not once but twice.
So I say it again n can't stress enough that u plz go through my posts again but slowly.

1.even though it seems difficult for you to come to terms with the American defeat in afg, but it is wt it is, can't put it any other way.
Afg from the very onset was always going to be a war of attrition and it turned out to be exactly that.
Due to the huge disparity between the two warring parties across the whole spectrum. So like most other wars of attrition the ppl of the land won and the invading force lost as they could not sustain it for an extended period of time.

2. you seriously are at a loss and need to go and consult ur notes again (or maybe an uncle who might have been their n done that). to mention SSG as second teir sf outfit and compare it equal to rangers. You have no idea about the role or the deployment of these sf outfits.
for ur info lcb was formed exactly on the pattern of us rangers to bridge the gap between the regular army units and SSG.
SSG was n is the tip of the spear, always first into a battle, followed by lcb, which are followed by the infantry which is deployed in a holding pattern.
3. u in ur post were negating the role of ground forces in the sl conflict and attributing it all the airpower alone, now ur contradicting urself again, in fact, have done a complete about-face on the whole matter n instead of admitting ur mistake and moving on are sinking deeper into the hole u have dug urself in.
no war has yet been won on air power alone u need boots on the ground to fight and take back territory.
like quite a few armed forces around the world, We trained the lankans and we had personal stationed as "advisors" down to company level during the lankan army battles with the tamils and most of PA personal in the front lines were SSG personal.

somehow it seems difficult for u to come to terms with the fact that PAK armed forces is the only armed forces in the world to have successfully completed two CT operations in modern history.

finally, I feel no affiliation or attachment to any outfit in PA my affiliation is Pakistan Army and my love is Pakistan. If I would feel affiliated to anything in PA then it should be with 2 EB that my father commanded or 19 Punjab or 10 FF that my great grandfather raised and my grandfather and his brother commanded and also was the col. commandant of the unit, which my uncles also happen to command.

I just state the obvious that u happen to miss.

R u serious. You write above in your own words SSG is the tip of the spear. They go first, then LCB and then infantry. My dear friend perhaps for some (smaller) actions that might be the case (mop up, COIN etc). But the spear of most of our military operations is Armor and for the foreseeable future will remain armor. Please don't say Pakistan Army's spear is SSG. You'll be laughed out of any gathering of serious military people.

Great to hear of your loved ones affiliated with the units you highlight. I speak for myself and not any affiliations I may or may not have.

Go read my SL post. I did not say air power was the reason. I said PAF perhaps had a greater impact on that war than SSG. I laid out in detail what contributed to SL's win, and I wont repeat it here. I laid out 5-6 different things that were critical in that scenario. PAF observers was one of the five.

Also I congratulate you on having your Great Grandfather who I am assuming was of South Asian descent figure out how to raise a regiment in the thick of the colonial days under British Raj and under white British Dominion. 19th Punjab is a very old regiment, and its raising happened a long long time ago (unless you are talking about some reconstituted 19th Punjab after Partition, seconded to PA). That has to be some achievement. Would love to know who your great grandfather was. Or was it the FF that he raised, which would again be amazing. Or did he raise the 10th Battalion not the overall Regiment because you said 10 FF but put Regiment not Battalion? If that is the case that too is incredible since that would have happened in the 19th century under colonial rule, and for a local officer to be given a charge to raise the 10th B of the Piffers is amazing. Piffers and Punjab are near and dear to my heart as well. Sorry if I find myself a bit confused. Regardless thank you for your family's service.

 

[Reichmarshal]

R u serious. You write above in your own words SSG is the tip of the spear. They go first, then LCB and then infantry. My dear friend perhaps for some (smaller) actions that might be the case (mop up, COIN etc). But the spear of most of our military operations is Armor and for the foreseeable future will remain armor. Please don't say Pakistan Army's spear is SSG. You'll be laughed out of any gathering of serious military people.

Great to hear of your loved ones affiliated with the units you highlight. I speak for myself and not any affiliations I may or may not have.

Go read my SL post. I did not say air power was the reason. I said PAF perhaps had a greater impact on that war than SSG. I laid out in detail what contributed to SL's win, and I wont repeat it here. I laid out 5-6 different things that were critical in that scenario. PAF observers was one of the five.

Also I congratulate you on having your Great Grandfather who I am assuming was of South Asian descent figure out how to raise a regiment in the thick of the colonial days under British Raj and under white British Dominion. 19th Punjab is a very old regiment, and its raising happened a long long time ago (unless you are talking about some reconstituted 19th Punjab after Partition, seconded to PA). That has to be some achievement. Would love to know who your great grandfather was. Or was it the FF that he raised, which would again be amazing. Or did he raise the 10th Battalion not the overall Regiment because you said 10 FF but put Regiment not Battalion? If that is the case that too is incredible since that would have happened in the 19th century under colonial rule, and for a local officer to be given a charge to raise the 10th B of the Piffers is amazing. Piffers and Punjab are near and dear to my heart as well. Sorry if I find myself a bit confused. Regardless thank you for your family's service.

Best regards,
JK

seriously ...now ur down to crumbs basically. i expected better from u.
the order of battle I have given above would basically happen when faced with enemy infantry.

the rest is self explanatory, if still ur unable to understand then I suggest u google.

 

[TigerOfMysore]

seriously ...now ur down to crumbs basically. i expected better from u.
the order of battle I have given above would basically happen when faced with enemy infantry.

the rest is self explanatory, if still ur unable to understand then I suggest u google.

Meri Jaan no need to get so emotional. My intellect only allows for crumb grabbing. In standard ops if you put SSG as a spear against regular infantry it would get ground down to nothing in no time. You are saying ORBAT for infantry engagement is SSG. Jesus. Can someone here please take the baton from me. My buddy @Reichmarshal is grinding me down, like the Red Army did to Reich's of past in the Eastern Front in WW2.

ORBAT against a well entrenched infantry is not SOFs. Also Infantry is a broad term. Infantry can be in a hold position, it can be moving (there are a large number of infantry actions that are diverse, and each has a different impact on counter ORBAT), terrain/weather also has a lot to factor in. Then infantry's own situation has a lot to do with ORBAT. Is infantry mechanized, does it have air Cav or other air assets, does it have anti armor assets, does it have supporting armor (or the other way round). Does it have anti-air units, is it under an Artillery umbrella. And finally the most important part, what is the size of the Infantry unit. There are so many variances I can go crazy explaining this to you. That is the whole reason advanced militaries are moving towards AI based sensor driven battlefield management and decision making.

Your ORBAT only stands some merit in limited COIN ops.

Please don't put my dear SSG against an infantry unit. I beg you.
Thank you.

 

[JamD]

Meri Jaan no need to get so emotional. My intellect only allows for crumb grabbing. In standard ops if you put SSG as a spear against regular infantry it would get ground down to nothing in no time. You are saying ORBAT for infantry engagement is SSG. Jesus. Can someone here please take the baton from me. My buddy @Reichmarshal is grinding me down, like the Red Army did to Reich's of past in the Eastern Front in WW2.

ORBAT against a well entrenched infantry is not SOFs. Also Infantry is a broad term. Infantry can be in a hold position, it can be moving (there are a large number of infantry actions that are diverse, and each has a different impact on counter ORBAT), terrain/weather also has a lot to factor in. Then infantry's own situation has a lot to do what ORBAT. Is infantry mechanized, does it have air Cav or other air assets, does it have anti armor assets. Does it have anti-air units, is it under an Artillery umbrella. And finally the most important part, what is the size of the Infantry unit. There are so many variances I can go crazy explaining this to you. That is the whole reason advanced militaries are moving towards AI based sensor driven battlefield management and decision making.

Your ORBAT only stands some merit in COIN ops.

Please don't put my dear SSG against an infantry unit. I beg you.
Thank you.

Being new to this club you are yet to realize that the point where any actual debate ended was several posts ago lol. Make your point, then smile and wave boys, smile and wave.

 

[Goritoes]

Yes I am, In this way we have sufficient amount of $$.

You want another Coup in Pakistan

 

[Adecypher]

Being new to this club you are yet to realize that the point where any actual debate ended was several posts ago lol. Make your point, then smile and wave boys, smile and wave.

Like this...

 

[TigerOfMysore]

Being new to this club you are yet to realize that the point where any actual debate ended was several posts ago lol. Make your point, then smile and wave boys, smile and wave.

@JamD
I think you are right. My 30 years of studying these topics and being directly involved in some of these areas is making me into a mean old man. I need to retire and go into the sunset, and let the young guns take on the mantle. BTW I maybe new in terms of posting, but have been a (anon) member of this forum for donkey years and was on PakDef before it became a web page and was operating as a channel on the NNTP protocol. (talk about us being young and emotional in those days LOL!!!) Waving at you boys! And smiling.

 

[Reichmarshal]

Meri Jaan no need to get so emotional. My intellect only allows for crumb grabbing. In standard ops if you put SSG as a spear against regular infantry it would get ground down to nothing in no time. You are saying ORBAT for infantry engagement is SSG. Jesus. Can someone here please take the baton from me. My buddy @Reichmarshal is grinding me down, like the Red Army did to Reich's of past in the Eastern Front in WW2.

ORBAT against a well entrenched infantry is not SOFs. Also Infantry is a broad term. Infantry can be in a hold position, it can be moving (there are a large number of infantry actions that are diverse, and each has a different impact on counter ORBAT), terrain/weather also has a lot to factor in. Then infantry's own situation has a lot to do what ORBAT. Is infantry mechanized, does it have air Cav or other air assets, does it have anti armor assets, does it have supporting armor (or the other way round). Does it have anti-air units, is it under an Artillery umbrella. And finally the most important part, what is the size of the Infantry unit. There are so many variances I can go crazy explaining this to you. That is the whole reason advanced militaries are moving towards AI based sensor driven battlefield management and decision making.

Your ORBAT only stands some merit in limited COIN ops.

Please don't put my dear SSG against an infantry unit. I beg you.
Thank you.

I reply to u out of common curtacy, but it does not seem common at ur end.
The debate ended quite a few posts ago but for some reason u can't seem to fathom it n drag it to satisfy ur ego.
So wt u do is nit picking n take things out of context.
So like I said earlier admit ur mistakes kearn from them n move on.

 

[Raja Porus]

Aren't they the same
(Below is the average enjoyer)