Ummah Yearnings

[Truth Teller]

TNT was used to justify the event of partition and that event is now done and over with.

There only region which was partitioned in 1947 was Punjab.

I'm Punjabi and I justify the partition of Punjab. Most Pakistani Punjabis will always justify the partition of Punjab. Punjab was partitioned for the best.

I just dont understand why you non-Punjabis in bharat always feel so emotional about partition of Punjab in 1947. Its not like you people are Punjabi. Its not like your grandparents were affected by the partition of the Punjab in 1947.

 

[Burger Boy]

because their is no concept of Secularism in Islam so either you are with Islam or you are against it their because Secularism is kufr

This exactly what I was referring to when Islamist attempt to stifle any criticism or views that don't fit into their agenda by playing the "this is kufr" card rather than showing how what they support is better than what their opponents support with facts and reasoning.

 

[SQ8]

Absolutely stunning to read - Yes, I understand and I think you have articulated it just right - but I must tell you that while I was once convinced that if Shari'ah can be liberated and the epistemological understand of the nature or knowledge become the guiding principle in the formulation and refinement of Shari'ah, that we may come to the stage that Muslim and Modernity is reconciled -- but the reality is, and I say this to you as someone with some experience in trying to effect such a understanding, that it is a, at present, futile pursuit, matching the money of the Wahabi is not possible and even when it is, bridging the sectarian divide is not possible -- not possible.

Now, my hope is on material achievement -- This is the great truth to me, because success, read material achievement, is a reflection, an affirmation that the yearning has been satisfied, more than less.

Muse, we dont need to match the money of the Wahabi..
The whole base of Wahabi logic is flawed.. you just have to know where to hit it.
Moreover, unless we take up the fight now.. we will end up losing whatever section of Pakistani Muslim society that can be saved from Wahabi influence.

Unless I misread your concept of success.. as it goes "it is more comfortable for the bride to cry in a Civic than a motorbike"..
Materialism , or success is undoubtedly satisfying.. but it does lead to a loss of a national consensus. Since the success of one may rest on the failure of the other.
It is such scenario's that Wahabi elements will exploit.. where there is injustice(perceived or real).
Ipso facto.. whilst I support the need to promote success as the elixir to Pakistani life, it can only come after the religious base has been cleaned up.
Still.. my approach is not the only "attack" on the Wahabi ideology that is needed..corruption, poverty , unemployment are the main stirrers of frustration. As I posted earlier elsewhere.. what the Wahabi offers is escape from that.. Right now.. the "root causes" of people's frustration cannot be tackled overnight... so the best idea is to take that frustration and drive it toward a positive attitude.. rather than a destructive one.
Both of which are based on Faith...

 

[Vinod2070]

Wheres the proof King Porus was a hindu? There is no proof he was a hindu. Stop claiming as if everything belongs to hindus.

We want Pakistanis to take pride in their actual history and civlization. We dont want your hindutva version of history. So no thank you. Keep your advice to yourself.

His full name was Purushottama. Look it up.

He was a Yaduvanshi Hindu king. Easy to find again.

 

[Vinod2070]

There only region which was partitioned in 1947 was Punjab.

I'm Punjabi and I justify the partition of Punjab. Most Pakistani Punjabis will always justify the partition of Punjab. Punjab was partitioned for the best.

I just dont understand why you non-Punjabis in bharat always feel so emotional about partition of Punjab in 1947. Its not like you people are Punjabi. Its not like your grandparents were affected by the partition of the Punjab in 1947.

Bengal was also divided. So you are factually wrong.

Anyway, I am from a part of India that was part of the united Punjab. My grandparents saw the partition violence, we have had neighbors who lost all in the violence and came empty handed from West Punjab.

You don't have to understand anything. I don't think you ever will anyway.

I do agree that partition turned out to be better in the final analysis. Good for us and good for you.

 

[Zarvan]

The loose concept of ummah can be defined as a fedration of Islamic countries adhering to common law, relaxed taxation and integration business interests and favorable taxes and commerce towards each other. Sort of like a unitied regional and commericial block on the lines of NAFTA and EU.

Thinking of ummah united as one large visa free country is a fools dream and will led to shattering like that of soviet union..
Individualism and nationalism will always take over communal unification no matter how hard you try.
Its better to work with in the constrains than hopelessly try to break them.

ummah is not a loose concept its a major concept of Islam yes people who think its a loose concept actually have a loose mind which needs to be repaired Muslims can and will live in one combined state sooner or later INSHALLAH

 

[Zarvan]

Muse, we dont need to match the money of the Wahabi..
The whole base of Wahabi logic is flawed.. you just have to know where to hit it.
Moreover, unless we take up the fight now.. we will end up losing whatever section of Pakistani Muslim society that can be saved from Wahabi influence.

Unless I misread your concept of success.. as it goes "it is more comfortable for the bride to cry in a Civic than a motorbike"..
Materialism , or success is undoubtedly satisfying.. but it does lead to a loss of a national consensus. Since the success of one may rest on the failure of the other.
It is such scenario's that Wahabi elements will exploit.. where there is injustice(perceived or real).
Ipso facto.. whilst I support the need to promote success as the elixir to Pakistani life, it can only come after the religious base has been cleaned up.
Still.. my approach is not the only "attack" on the Wahabi ideology that is needed..corruption, poverty , unemployment are the main stirrers of frustration. As I posted earlier elsewhere.. what the Wahabi offers is escape from that.. Right now.. the "root causes" of people's frustration cannot be tackled overnight... so the best idea is to take that frustration and drive it toward a positive attitude.. rather than a destructive one.
Both of which are based on Faith...

first know and explain WAHABI IDEOLOGY than speak about it most of you have named even don't have any idea what it is

 

[SQ8]

first know and explain WAHABI IDEOLOGY than speak about it most of you have named even don't have any idea what it is

Open a thread on it then..
Its based on the Salafi school of thought.. lets see how that derivation has translated itself into Pakistani society.
Positive or negative.

 

[Ganga]

Wheres the proof King Porus was a hindu? There is no proof he was a hindu. Stop claiming as if everything belongs to hindus.

We want Pakistanis to take pride in their actual history and civlization. We dont want your hindutva version of history. So no thank you. Keep your advice to yourself.

By most accounts Porus was a Hindu.Greek historians who had traveled with Alexander mention that they took the name of Shiva before charging towards the enemy.Now i don't know whether he was really a Hindu.But why go so back?Pakistan was ruled by Hindu and Buddhist kings even when the Arabs came.period.

 

[TheStrantrunCurve]

We grow up with this nonsense about Bin Qasim being our hero, how shameful to have a hero who was killed brutally just because he did not send some slave girl to Arabia for the kings pleasure.

I would never want a hero like this so called man whose goal was to capture and send a beautiful girl to the king for gratification.

In reality when the Arabs first came to this region, they were heavily defeated at Makran by the local people.

Raja Dahir is our hero, he gave shelter to the family of Mohammed (SAW) when they were being hunted down, he fought bravely.

Even though his later life is controversial, he made this region proud, the arabs won later only because the locals supported them.

But alas, they were kicked out again.

I have only recently started reading and learning about history, we are a people of a great civilization and we have a great past.

We do not need to borrow a shameful history of another people, we have our own.

Although I am not a big fan of arbis I also don’t hate them, just because you hate Arbis doesn’t mean you also have to hate their history.

Arbis made many expedition to Sindh via Makran and were defeated many times, They were slaughtered by Jatts of Kaikanan and they also came to Bannu, It took them 70 years to occupy Sindh, it wasn’t a piece of cake to invade Sindh compared to Persia, Spain, North Africa and central Asia.


Muhammad bin Qasim issued a decree:

All human beings are created by Allah and are equal in His eyes.
He is one and without a peer. In my religion only those who are
kind to fellow human beings are worthy of respect. Cruelty and
oppression are prohibited in our law. We fight only those who
are unjust and are enemies of the truth. (Hussain 1997, 103)
A treaty was promulgated by one of the officers: On behalf
of the Commander of the Faithful, I, Habib bin Muslim, grant
amnesty to all the people of Daibul [Debal] and hereby ensure
their personal safety, security of their temples, women and
children and their property. So long as you will pay jizya [a
tax of protection levied on non-Muslims] we shall abide by this
agreement. (Ibid.)

Hindu rule in the region had been marked by oppression and cruelty
toward both the large Buddhist population and lower-caste Hindus. By
their tolerance the Muslims, as they had in other conquered regions,
soon won over the populace, who had little regard for their previous
rulers.

If the Arabs were so cruel and violent they wouldn’t have been able to rule Sind for 200 years.

For 200years Sind remained part of the Islamic Empire, under the direction of
at least 37 Arab governors who oversaw the administrations of local
rulers. Islam spread while Buddhists and Hindus continued to practice
their faith. Local revenue officials collected jizya and zakat (a tax
on Muslims). Mosques sprouted in every city, joining the Hindu and
Buddhist temples and shrines. Disputes between Muslims were settled
by qadis, Islamic judges, according to Islamic law. Disputes between
Buddhists and Hindus were settled by Brahman priests of the local panchayat,
or council. Over time the Islamic and Sindi customs intertwined
to create a new culture. Underscoring the deep bond that grew, Sindi
became the fi rst language into which the Qur’an was translated.

Sind made many contributions to science and astronomy under Islamic rule.
Bhartis hate arbis because they liberated low caste Hindus and Buddhists from Brahmin cruelty and gave the world this beautiful religion, although we don’t have to like arbis we should also not hate arbis, hate is not the answer of hate, this type of mentality is more common among Hindus. If we cannot accept Muslim rule over Pakistan we should also not hate it. You are just furthering the agenda of Hindu fanatics who claim Islam spread on the point of sword

 

[muse]

Muse, we dont need to match the money of the Wahabi..
The whole base of Wahabi logic is flawed.. you just have to know where to hit it.
Moreover, unless we take up the fight now.. we will end up losing whatever section of Pakistani Muslim society that can be saved from Wahabi influence.

Unless I misread your concept of success.. as it goes "it is more comfortable for the bride to cry in a Civic than a motorbike"..
Materialism , or success is undoubtedly satisfying.. but it does lead to a loss of a national consensus. Since the success of one may rest on the failure of the other.
It is such scenario's that Wahabi elements will exploit.. where there is injustice(perceived or real).
Ipso facto.. whilst I support the need to promote success as the elixir to Pakistani life, it can only come after the religious base has been cleaned up.
Still.. my approach is not the only "attack" on the Wahabi ideology that is needed..corruption, poverty , unemployment are the main stirrers of frustration. As I posted earlier elsewhere.. what the Wahabi offers is escape from that.. Right now.. the "root causes" of people's frustration cannot be tackled overnight... so the best idea is to take that frustration and drive it toward a positive attitude.. rather than a destructive one.
Both of which are based on Faith...

Santro

You have misread the material culture/success bit, at least it appears so, because I think we are talking about the same thing - below is aquote from forum member Aatish

For those “ummah” lovers, here is a prediction for you. The moment you become more developed and well-off than your Arab, Turks and Persian counterparts, you won’t need them to “accept” you as “ummah”, they will “come to you” to join.

This is exactly what I mean by material achievement/success

You say

Materialism , or success is undoubtedly satisfying.. but it does lead to a loss of a national consensus. Since the success of one may rest on the failure of the other.

I take your point, but it is a phenomenon of Material achievement, that it initiates a reordering or re prioritization of values -- it may not change the values, but it does reorder them and that effects both attitudes and more importantly behavior.

I have been on these forums for more than 10 years and it's my strong impression that the most radical of Pakistanis are not in Pakistan, but in the UK -- which should mean to anyone paying attention that Punjab and Azad Kashmir are serving as venues or gateways for the radicals to access the West, it's economy and of course, welfare. It is here, in the UK and the West, that confronting Wahabis and their handiwork has some chance of success -- confronting Wahabism in Pakistan, well, I don't - it requires a literate peoples or else you just end up replacing one nasty bit of business with something more nasty. but I hope to hear more from you, more substance as to how and what aspect to challenge.


Dirtyminded

I like your "Muslim Nationalism" bit - of course this is what is imparted to us in schools - but really if you kook at the substance of it, it is really anti-Hindu and anti-Western in substance - I mean we all know that whether Muslims or Islamists, they are fixed on such small items of disagreement that they are forever open to schisms, and their dogmatism makes it even easier to perpetuate fissures between and within them -- So I don't take "Muslim Nationalism" very seriously - look, I not negating it or saying it does not exist, I'm just saying that it's substance is nothing solid.

 

[SQ8]

Santro

You have misread the material culture/success bit, at least it appears so, because I think we are talking about the same thing - below is aquote from forum member Aatish



This is exactly what I mean by material achievement/success

You say

I take your point, but it is a phenomenon of Material achievement, that it initiates a reordering or re prioritization of values -- it may not change the values, but it does reorder them and that effects both attitudes and more importantly behavior.

I have been on these forums for more than 10 years and it's my strong impression that the most radical of Pakistanis are not in Pakistan, but in the UK -- which should mean to anyone paying attention that Punjab and Azad Kashmir are serving as venues or gateways for the radicals to access the West, it's economy and of course, welfare. It is here, in the UK and the West, that confronting Wahabis and their handiwork has some chance of success -- confronting Wahabism in Pakistan, well, I don't - it requires a literate peoples or else you just end up replacing one nasty bit of business with something more nasty. but I hope to hear more from you, more substance as to how and what aspect to challenge.


Dirtyminded

I like your "Muslim Nationalism" bit - of course this is what is imparted to us in schools - but really if you kook at the substance of it, it is really anti-Hindu and anti-Western in substance - I mean we all know that whether Muslims or Islamists, they are fixed on such small items of disagreement that they are forever open to schisms, and their dogmatism makes it even easier to perpetuate fissures between and within them -- So I don't take "Muslim Nationalism" very seriously - look, I not negating it or saying it does not exist, I'm just saying that it's substance is nothing solid.

Ah..
Well.. there is no denying the fact that we as a nation look to the better off muslim nations like a lost puppy.. The Saudi's taking full advantage of it.
The problem with countering The Wahabi inspired ideology in the uneducated class with a more balanced one requires a lot of thinking.. and it will take some time for me to give you an inkling of a strategy.
But I believe it can be done.. that I am sure of.

 

[Moorkh]

India does not claim the Indus Valley Civilization as it own, it may claim the Mauryan Civilization and ones that originated from land within the boundaries of current day india. It also does not claim Raja Dahir, Porus and a number of others as its own history, we occupy this land and we have a right to it, it is as simple as that.

we actually do claim every civilization since and including the IVC. while our claim to the IVC might be weak, we do have a strong right to the vedic civilization and the ones after that. after all we inherited the culture.

 

[muse]

The problem with countering The Wahabi inspired ideology in the uneducated class with a more balanced one requires a lot of thinking.. and it will take some time for me to give you an inkling of a strategy.
But I believe it can be done.. that I am sure of.

And see I have actually done the leg work of trying to put the scholar together - and trust me, it does not matter whom, but they are all prima donnas and they have the most intense schisms about the smallest of doctrinal differences --- See, Santro, whereas we are interested in Islam and Muslims and their conscience, the Wahabi have perfected the formula, a totalitarian outlook to life, no debates, no questions, no critical thinking - and it works, they don't need anyone making or creating anything, they need people who do as they are told and who fear, not just in this life but the after life as well.

Can it be done -- sure - in my life time? in yours? With the army still wedded to islamism? With murderers being garlanded? bumpy ride ahead.

 

[Moorkh]

Wheres the proof King Porus was a hindu? There is no proof he was a hindu. Stop claiming as if everything belongs to hindus.

We want Pakistanis to take pride in their actual history and civlization. We dont want your hindutva version of history. So no thank you. Keep your advice to yourself.

my friend. what was the prevalent culture in the subcontinent when alexander came to the subcontinent.

we know that the nanda dynasty existed in the gangetic plains. we also know that a couple of decades later chandragupta established the gupta empire with the help of chanakya. from all this knowledge we can conclude that the prevalent religion at the time in the subcontinent was hinduism or one of its sects.

so it isnt illogical in any way to assume that porus was a hindu. at worst he was the follower of a 'pagan' religion.