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UAE May Fund Next-Gen Rafale

Hi,

Pak-Yes I know as like Mastan Sahib, you are also in love with these birds, and no disagreements about that. They are absolute beauties. But no matter how good they are, as i said earlier, it does not fit in the current bills.
I am not underestimating M-2k9s in anyway but trying to portray a realistic scenario. It is a fact that our needs already exceed our ragged pockets which force us to take careful and wise decisions of all the available options.
One question, which I now wanna ask you,(keeping the economics aside) is which extra capability M-2k9 gonna provide you which the current Thunders and Blk-52 are lacking?? Although no disagreements about their competencies in certain areas!

Having said that, PAF has made it crystal clear by opting for 14 extra Blk-52, that Mirages are a no go area for them. Other then that, You also wanna develop your Thunders soon(very soon) to the next level, are you willing to sacrifice their development for M-2k9s?? And then FC-20, another huge project (knocking at the doors) leaving other air and air-defense assets aside, Practically how are you going to find a place for them in our already over exceeding bills??

Remember when we bought PGs back in 2002-03, they did a good job in those days by beefing up the numbers but honestly speaking that was a mistimed and misplaced order. They cannot serve you for long in terms of Technological compatibility, although we would drag them till their airframes starts falling apart! These M-2k9s will be at the same cross roads from 7-8 years from now.

And then look at another aspect, the age of 5th generation has arrived, At-least 10 countries will arm themselves with 5th generation in the next decade, including your adversary. Although it kinda looks like a luxury right now but 10 years from now they will be a dire need to stay competitive. For us this decade practically holds no room to arm with 5th generation but post 2020 this would be a real challenge to bring them in. If India is inducting them in 2018 then Pakistan should be doing that or thinking to that in 2023, maximally five years gap or they will have a leap which we will never be able to cover up, so its necessary to start planning and saving for from right now and avoid all unnecessary purchases which can seriously dent our future plans.

:pakistan:

Regards!

5th gen.Friendship with China is one thing but in my opinion we Pakistani's very much overestimate the capabilities of J-XX.I am no expert but it is obvious the amount of problems Americans facing for F-35 and perhaps F-22.and the Russian with T-50.at best J-XX would be inferior to PAK-FA,and because Pakistan doesn't want to build economy then it means we will not be able to purchase 5th gen in good numbers anytime soon.I mean just imagine we have severe trouble buying 25-30 mil jets imagine our finances with a minimum 100 mil Plane.

Just my opinion.

and i don't think there is much difference between m2k9 and blk 52.but we are buying already experienced sanction prone blk52 right.So if we order blk52 we get in 2 years but if we secure a deal for m2k9 we get them immediately.which is better?

As far Life of airframe are concerned i wouldn't worry very much Arabs aircraft are only for hangers not for Air.

As far Thunders are concerned they are surely inferior.Otherwise we would not be pleading french for m2k avionics.
 
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Rafale's period is gone & i think French just need Arab Money to create something better to cater their own needs.

Look at Rafale competitors.

F-16 C/D -E/F
F-15S/Silent eagle
EF-2000
F/A-18 E/F
Su-35BM
JSF
PAK-FA
JAS-39 Gripen NG
J-10B
JXX ??

Rafale's a dead meat now !
 
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A failed try by France. current rafale cost without weapons goes as much as 85 Million dollars now add weapons..Hypothetically if france uses arab money to make a next gen rafale it will cost 100 Million dollars. Who is going to buy it? by that time EF-2000/F-35 would have become more advanced..and Imagine if F-35 is offered to u.a.e that will instantaneously kill next rafale project..even most likely pak-fa would be superior as it specs suggest more superior than su-35BM..right said black blood rafale is dead meat...there will be a time french might sell it for 55-60 million dollars when all customers are gone..already gone!
I am quiet sure u.a.e is not looking for another headache like mirages..french are going through misery and i am so glad enjoying it. All they can do is refurbish and upgrades mirage 2000s that's all left to their industry..not a single sales where as EF-2000 marketing is clear! arrogance leads to failure.
 
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Rafale's period is gone & i think French just need Arab Money to create something better to cater their own needs.

Look at Rafale competitors.

F-16 E/F
F-15S/Silent eagle
EF-2000
F/A-16 E/F
Su-35BM
JSF
PAK-FA
JAS-39 Gripen NG
J-10B
JXX ??

Rafale's a dead meat now !

:blink::blink::blink:

Let's see this fact some other way....

F/A-16 E/F is a dead meat now because see the competitor..

Rafale
F-15S/Silent eagle
EF-2000
Su-35BM
JSF
PAK-FA
JAS-39 Gripen NG
J-10B
JXX ??

Or EF-2000 is dead meat not because see the competitor!
F-16 E/F
F-15S/Silent eagle
rafale
F/A-16 E/F
Su-35BM
JSF
PAK-FA
JAS-39 Gripen NG
J-10B
JXX ??

Need some batter argument form some one who just know what is 4th Gen fighter (By F-16 Blk 52):hitwall::hitwall:
 
Rafale's period is gone & i think French just need Arab Money to create something better to cater their own needs.

Look at Rafale competitors.

F-16 E/F
F-15S/Silent eagle
EF-2000
F/A-16 E/F
Su-35BM
JSF
PAK-FA
JAS-39 Gripen NG
J-10B
JXX ??

Rafale's a dead meat now !

You are comparing Rafale with wrong class of fighters. Chinese planes can't be compared with Rafale it's a fact! Just becoz French canceled Pak's avionics deal for the moment doesn't qualify to ***** about such a beautiful and magnificent aircraft.
 
harrymohan...what class of fighters do you want to list and compare with rafale? T-37?
the class are rightly listed..if you remove jxx out it class is perfect.

In terms of Cost and technology if you leave out j-10b for now, all of them beat rafale. now enjoy those facts rafale has no customer say cheese..rightly said rafale can't be compared to those hot cake market planes..its marketing failure disaster.
 
harrymohan...what class of fighters do you want to list and compare with rafale? T-37?
the class are rightly listed..if you remove jxx out it class is perfect.

In terms of Cost and technology if you leave out j-10b for now, all of them beat rafale. now enjoy those facts rafale has no customer say cheese..rightly said rafale can't be compared to those hot cake market planes..its marketing failure disaster.
No sir, you telling becaure of critics that rounds around Rafale. But that wrong as hell, if i am a pilot,i select the rafale to fight all planes you mention in the above list
 
You are comparing Rafale with wrong class of fighters. Chinese planes can't be compared with Rafale it's a fact! Just becoz French canceled Pak's avionics deal for the moment doesn't qualify to ***** about such a beautiful and magnificent aircraft.

Did i hit any nerve of yours??

If you get your brain to work instead of your tounge , you would understand that the thing i was talking about is Market not the specifications.

Rafale is out of market because there are much better fighters available on a low price than rafale.

Rafale is designed to be what it is , it is not a plane of the future & if you decide to get out of your fake sense of nationalism and ego , you would pay some heeds to the mock Dogfights between J-11B (Su-27sk) And J-10 where J-10A Beat its competitor many times.

Indians have grown a bad habbit of underestimating Chinese thechnology , grow up.
 
:blink::blink::blink:

Let's see this fact some other way....

F/A-16 E/F is a dead meat now because see the competitor..

Rafale
F-15S/Silent eagle
EF-2000
Su-35BM
JSF
PAK-FA
JAS-39 Gripen NG
J-10B
JXX ??

Or EF-2000 is dead meat not because see the competitor!
F-16 E/F
F-15S/Silent eagle
rafale
F/A-16 E/F
Su-35BM
JSF
PAK-FA
JAS-39 Gripen NG
J-10B
JXX ??

Need some batter argument form some one who just know what is 4th Gen fighter (By F-16 Blk 52):hitwall::hitwall:



We are talking about Rafale not F-16's or Super Hornets.
 
Lets see i have the Rafale here but i have the Eurofighter there. Which one...hmmmm...yep Eurofighter. Rafale has nothing special to offer that will make it a step up. UAE has money to spend so let them go for a more advanced version of it. Rest of the world will stick with the Lightning II and Typhoon.
 
Hi,

Seems like this m2k9 thing is not going to sleep.

If airforce was like a cricket match T20 and JF 17 was like Mohammad Hafeez, then Umar Gul like a F 16 blk 52 and Abdul Razzaq like the M2K9----and you are facing australia somewhere close to SU 30---who would you prefer---.

You see what happened to that little boy Mohammad Hafeez, when he had to come up against the men of australia---JF 17 is like a little puppy dog---it will need at least a minimum of 5 more years to develop---but still it will never be in the big boyz club---.

What if the Blk 52's have a problem with delivery---then what---m2k9 !!!!!

Wars are a YESTERDAY / TODAY business---what you bought yesterday---you will use it in today's war---. What you don't have in stock---how can you use it---do you ever see dead men reaching for any weapons.
 
Did i hit any nerve of yours??

If you get your brain to work instead of your tounge , you would understand that the thing i was talking about is Market not the specifications.

Rafale is out of market because there are much better fighters available on a low price than rafale.

Rafale is designed to be what it is , it is not a plane of the future & if you decide to get out of your fake sense of nationalism and ego , you would pay some heeds to the mock Dogfights between J-11B (Su-27sk) And J-10 where J-10A Beat its competitor many times.

Indians have grown a bad habbit of underestimating Chinese thechnology , grow up.

Don't you think J-10/11/17 can't compete against $90 million a piece Rafale which hopefully would be loaded with awesome avonics which even Pakistan wants for it's J-17? Rafale is failure because it's way too expensive not because it lacks! Gripen can't be compared with Rafale. Gripen is light weight fighter whereas Rafale is mid-weight fighter! same again Rafale can't be compared with SU-30 MKI/35 BM since latter is heavy class fighter!
Trust me you never hit my nerves! Chinese fighters lack better avionics that is the reason Pakistan wants western avionics. Avionics are imp part of modern warfare, you must reckon this with me. As far as nationalism or ego is concerned checkout my all post you won't find any. I talk what is logical.

Rafale is not choosen bcoz of exorbitant price tag plus France doesn't hold much of political weight in international arena that's why it's most of the times beaten to EADs Eurofighter! :cheers::cheers:
 
harrymohan...don't you think F-15SE if it is ordered is low cost a semi stealth..Notionally, Boeing estimates the F-15SE’s cost, including airframe, spares and training, at $100 million each. TRAINING AND SPARES...Rafale loses out clearly...

harrymohan nobody is saying rafale is technological failure its a pure marketing failure..put your mind to work black blood explained it earlier.
 
Hi,

Seems like this m2k9 thing is not going to sleep.

If airforce was like a cricket match T20 and JF 17 was like Mohammad Hafeez, then Umar Gul like a F 16 blk 52 and Abdul Razzaq like the M2K9----and you are facing australia somewhere close to SU 30---who would you prefer---.

You see what happened to that little boy Mohammad Hafeez, when he had to come up against the men of australia---JF 17 is like a little puppy dog---it will need at least a minimum of 5 more years to develop---but still it will never be in the big boyz club---.

What if the Blk 52's have a problem with delivery---then what---m2k9 !!!!!

Wars are a YESTERDAY / TODAY business---what you bought yesterday---you will use it in today's war---. What you don't have in stock---how can you use it---do you ever see dead men reaching for any weapons.

Hahahahahah:lol::lol: What was that MK:what: Still trying to figure it out :lol::lol:


JF 17 was like Mohammad Hafeez ---JF 17 is like a little puppy dog:lol:

But I guess if its about Mirages, We all know your POV.

BTW good to see you back, and keep posting. Now all of us would love to see you back in the Blue Squad, the place where you belong to!!


:pakistan:

Adios
 
Don't you think J-10/11/17 can't compete against $90 million a piece Rafale which hopefully would be loaded with awesome avonics which even Pakistan wants for it's J-17? Rafale is failure because it's way too expensive not because it lacks! Gripen can't be compared with Rafale. Gripen is light weight fighter whereas Rafale is mid-weight fighter! same again Rafale can't be compared with SU-30 MKI/35 BM since latter is heavy class fighter!
Trust me you never hit my nerves! Chinese fighters lack better avionics that is the reason Pakistan wants western avionics. Avionics are imp part of modern warfare, you must reckon this with me. As far as nationalism or ego is concerned checkout my all post you won't find any. I talk what is logical.

Rafale is not choosen bcoz of exorbitant price tag plus France doesn't hold much of political weight in international arena that's why it's most of the times beaten to EADs Eurofighter! :cheers::cheers:

You need to read this before you glorify Rafale , to me it is a massively overpriced Jet which wont match up with its competitors.

Subject: What is wrong with the Rafale?
Rufus 5/9/2009 10:16:10 AM
I have noticed a lot of discussion on here lately about the Rafale and its inability to compete with the various other late 4th generation designs on the market today. In an effort to shed some light on this issue I have taken a moment to list some of the Rafale's major crippling flaws and their origins.

The single biggest issue with the Rafale, and the common thread throughout most of its major design flaws, is that its design team simply lacked sufficient vision of where the future of fighter aviation was heading. Throughout the Rafale's design process its designers chose to go with incremental improvements rather than generational leaps in technology. The Rafale was intended to catch up to, rather than leap ahead of, aircraft that were designed years earlier such as the F-16 and Mig-29. The end result is a somewhat refined, but badly overpriced aircraft that has struggled to even compete with the aircraft it was designed to match, and utterly lacks the potential to compete with newer designs.

The most obvious area where this lack of vision is displayed is in the Rafale's overall layout and its notable lack of signature reduction design features. The Rafale exhibits numerous features that would simply never be incorporated into any design intended to have a reduced RCS, including its prominent intakes, a huge vertical stabilizer, canards, a non-retractable refueling probe, and numerous other probes, protrusions, and other serious RCS offenders. What does this mean? Late in the Rafale's design process its engineers realized that they had failed to anticipate the key role RCS reduction would play in future designs and scambled to find ways to reduce the Rafale's RCS. With minimal experience with RCS reduction and an airframe that was already too far along in its design to be fixed, the end result was of course disappointing. Shaping is the single most important consideration in RCS reduction and the Rafale has too many major flaws to ever be considered stealthy. RAM coatings and last minute saw-tooth edge features are at best minimally effective on an aircraft that is otherwise designed all wrong from the start.

Not only that, but the Rafale's maneuverability proved to be disappointing, comparable to, but only marginally better than that already offered by earlier 4th generation designs and noticably lacking in comparison to its bigger brother, the Eurofighter. As the US/Israel found with the Lavi design, the improvement in aerodynamic performance available with such a design was insufficient to justfy the cost of creating an entire new airframe and a generational leap in performance would require a new approach.

Like its airframe, the Rafale's pit and interfaces sought to close the gap with earlier 4th generation designs. Drawing its inspiration from the US, the Rafale design team sought to replicate the hands on throttle and stick interface the US had adopted by the time the Rafale entered its design phase. While the Rafale was largely successful in matching the interfaces seen in US fighters in the early 90s, its designers failed to see the direction future designs were heading. Today the Rafale's pit and human interface are at best mediocre in comparison to those found in other aircraft in production. It lacks a helmet mounted site, a serious flaw in a WVR fight, and numerous other advanced features such as the Super Hornet's fully decoupled interfaces. Most critically, the Rafale's man machine interface lacks the defining features of a 5th generation design, such as advanced sensor fusion and sophisticated multi-purpose helmet mounted displays.

Probably the most famous and inexcusable design flaw in the Rafale is its unusually small and short ranged radar. While the US launched fully funded AESA programs and prepared for a generational leap in radar performance, for some reason the Rafale was designed with a PESA radar, a technological dead-end. Worse, the Rafale was simply not designed to accomodate a radar of sufficient size to operate effectively autonomously. Now, although France is working to retrofit an AESA antenna onto its PESA back-end in the Rafale, the nose of the Rafale will simply not accomodate a competitive radar. The best the Rafale can hope to do is close some of its radar performance gap with aircraft like the F-16, but will never be capable of competing with designs like the Eurofighter or Super Hornet.

Finally, one of the most critcal flaws in the Rafale's design is its widely misunderstood "Spectra" self protection jammer and RWR suite. As was done with the F-16 and Super Hornet, the Rafale design team sought to incorporate an internal self protection jammer into the Rafale to improve its survivability against radar guided threats. The major failure of Spectra was that its development cycle was far far too long and France's semiconductor and computer industry was simply incapable of providing the necessary components to create a truely cutting edge system. By the time it went from the drawing board to production, a period of over 10 years, it was barely able to match systems being offered by Israel and the United States on other 4th generation fighters. The Spectra self protection jammer simply lacks the processing power, flexibility, and diverse threat response range available on aircraft like the Super Hornet, F-16 block 60, or modern Israeli systems. Not only that, but because of nearly continual funding shortages in development, Spectra lacks now-standard features such as sophisticated towed decoys and next generation jamming waveforms that it simply lacks the processing power or antennas to produce.

Instead, what Spectra offers are relatively simplistic signals generated by its prominent but inflexible and simplistic transmitters.(Based on narrow-band, inefficient MMICs, a constraint imposed by the lack of a domestic supplier for more modern MMICs, the same issue that has plauged France's AESA program.) Spectra is perhaps the least crippling of the Rafale's flaws, because it could potentially be removed and replaced with a more modern system. Spectra tacks up a relatively large amount of space and power for what it offers, so a modern design could certainly do more with the same space and power supply, but France does not currently have the resources or certain key technologies to contemplate designing or building a system that would approach the power and flexibility of something like the F-35s EW system with its unparalled stealthy low power jamming modes.(and the ability to create incredibly powerful long range jamming modes if its AESA is used as a transmitter.)

So in summary, what went wrong? The Rafale was designed to match and compete with designs in operation in the early to mid 90s, but other design teams around the world were already moving ahead with generational leaps in stealth, electronic warfare, sensor fusion, and network centric concepts. By the time the Rafale design team recognized they had misjudged the direction of future designs, they lacked the resources and time to correct their mistakes. Now they are trying to find some way to obtain more money through exports so they can replace the Rafale's mid-90s radar, computers, jammers, etc so that they can at least keep pace with other 4th generation designs for a few years before being completely surpassed by 5th generation designs.
 
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