U.S. Military Taught Officers ‘Hiroshima’ Tactics for ‘Total War’ on Islam

[vsdoc]

The whole scenario is 'end of times' when Mecca/Medina are nuked. For that option to be exercised, the atmosphere against Muslims would be thoroughly vitiated already.

Not necessarily. Some of us here have been at pains to explain to you guys the difference between Islam and Muslims en masse and radical Islam.

There will be huge pockets of Muslims that will not be affected. Who can choose to remain integrated into the social fabric of their neutral secular countries. Till and if they choose not to be.

Once you enter war as a combatant the gloves are necessarily off.

As a corollary, as the only Islamic nuclear power, there will be a HUGE onus on Pakistan to behave responsibly and as a NATION first and foremost.

As against a huge body of angry muslims.

With nukes.

You guys talk down to Hindus for being pagan idol worshippers. There are those amongst you who take great pride in Islam being the purest and newest and latest reiteration of the Holy word. Not suffering from the drawbacks and fallacies of other older more primitive pagan religions or indeed Abrahamic ones.

But you still go mental if someone lampoons your prophet or holy book.

And you would risk anihilation if someone blows up your holy place.

Why is your faith so insecure then?

If you attach so much importance to a piece of nature, how can you talk down to others who worship nature, creatures, and idols in their own right?

I don't see the logic here.

Your faith necessarily needs to be stronger and within your own hearts that it does not need to be bolstered by physical form.

 

[Developereo]

Not necessarily. Some of us here have been at pains to explain to you guys the difference between Islam and Muslims en masse and radical Islam.

The whole premise of this thread, and course, is that there is no significant difference between radical and mainstream Islam, hence a 'total war on Islam'. Lt. Dooley does not mince words: he wants to reduce Islam -- all of Islam -- to a 'cult status'.

Nobody has any issue with combating extremists. The whole debate here is about the attempted and implied characterization of mainstream Islam in Dooley's course.

 

[Audio]

The whole premise of this thread, and course, is that there is no significant difference between radical and mainstream Islam, hence a 'total war on Islam'. Lt. Dooley does not mince words: he wants to reduce Islam -- all of Islam -- to a 'cult status'.

There is a difference.

But war on it will only come when when mainstream, moderate Islam looses control and gets subdued by the radical elements.

You just dont want to see that we can and do make this difference. A lot of the convenient "evil West" rhetoric goes out the window after that and let's face it, that's all you got, and without it you just wouldn't be able to post.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

The whole premise of this thread, and course, is that there is no significant difference between radical and mainstream Islam, hence a 'total war on Islam'. Lt. Dooley does not mince words: he wants to reduce Islam -- all of Islam -- to a 'cult status'.

Nobody has any issue with combating extremists. The whole debate here is about the attempted and implied characterization of mainstream Islam in Dooley's course.

hence the justification of nuking Mecca and Medina.
there are no two views about it no matter how these guys spin it now.

now if I or you show alarm over this mindset then we are reminded about 9/11 atrocity and whenever there are "isolated" incidents by the sergeants & agents of America across the globe, they are used as a justification and a "reaction".

it doesnt matter how a civilian is killed whether it was a dirty bomb planted by a wild eyed bearded fanatic that had very little time for personal hygiene

or

it was a "smart bomb" dropped from thousands of feet above in the sky by a tom cruise look alike pilot.

a civilians death is an atrocity whatever the lame reasoning is used. what is equally sickening is the justification for such actions and such mindset
its as if the Western society is slowly being sleep walked and brain washed into accepting the deaths of tens of millions a certain race and religion.

this is why I believe, that the Nazi philosophy never died. its very much live and kicking. only that it has found new hosts.

 

[Developereo]

A lot of the convenient "evil West" rhetoric goes out the window after that and let's face it, that's all you got, and without it you just wouldn't be able to post.

I divide the 'West' into three groups of people.

-- radical fanatics (in three piece suits) who are no better than the Islamist fanatics.

-- mainstream ordinary people who are basically fair minded, despite being brainwashed by the fanatics above.

-- the dregs of society who are losers in real life and who try to bolster their self-esteem by beating their chests behind Western achievements (which they themselves had little to do with).

 

[Audio]

hence the justification of nuking Mecca and Medina.
there are no two views about it no matter how these guys spin it now.

You actually make it sound real. As if it already happened. How about that view? It didnt happen.

now if I or you show alarm over this mindset then we are reminded about 9/11 atrocity and whenever there are "isolated" incidents by the sergeants & agents of America across the globe, they are used as a justification and a "reaction".

Now this actually did happen. See the difference?

its as if the Western society is slowly being sleep walked and brain washed into accepting the deaths of tens of millions a certain race and religion.

How, when? links, not fantasies please.

When will you and Developeon accept there isn't a uniformed bad view on Islam in the West. However that is changing, partially because of the cultural divide (massive in some cases), partially because of the inability of Muslims themselves to restrain the radical elements
themselves.

When will you accept the responsabilities that you have? Granted some nutcase blowing himself up isnt your responsability per se, but if that pulls behind it an attack on your soil does it become your issue???

I divide the 'West' into three groups of people.

-- radical fanatics (in three piece suits) who are no better than the Islamist fanatics.

-- mainstream ordinary people who are basically fair minded, despite being brainwashed by the fanatics above.

-- the dregs of society who are losers in real life and who try to bolster their self-esteem by beating their chests behind Western achievements (which they themselves had little to do with).

Simple answer from a simple mind.

btw: to which one do you belong? Seems you left out "out of work immigrants trying to enforce shariah down our throats while on welfare". So im curious where do you see yourself then.

 

[Developereo]

it was a "smart bomb" dropped from thousands of feet above in the sky by a tom cruise look alike pilot.

The bombing of Dresden, the nuking of Hiroshima and Nagasaki -- all have been 'justified' because the victors write the rules.

After the Iraq war, we thought there would be no more reckless wars drummed up by media hysteria. And, yet, here we are with the war drums beating again -- this time against Iran.

btw: to which one do you belong? Seems you left out "out of work immigrants trying to enforce shariah down our throats while on welfare". So im curious where do you see yourself then.

Notice I didn't say anything about you in my post.

But how ironic that, in trying to categorize me, you ended up categorizing yourself!

 

[Audio]

Notice I didn't say anything about you in my post.

But how ironic that, in trying to categorize me, you ended up categorizing yourself!

Hahahahaha, i love the way you spin things!

But seriously...there are more categories then 3 or (my) 4th included. It is silly to generalise like that.

The bombing of Dresden, the nuking of Hiroshima and Nagasaki -- all have been 'justified' because the victors write the rules.

That was war? World War II? fyi the Germans started first with the policy of attacking cities when Hitler diverted the Luftwaffe from attacking the RAF (they had them beat almost) airfields to city bombings.

I dont know how you in all honesty can draw parallels from today to then.....Seems you guys love to go into the past for flawed examples and skew them anyway you like in order for them to fit somehow into today.

Also comparing the brutality of WWII with WoT is just delusional.
If Americans did like what the Germans and Russians did to each other in such numbers and in such severity......i wonder how much crying you would do then....

 

[Developereo]

Also comparing the brutality of WWII with WoT is just delusional.

Read the OP.

It says specifically that, since the terrorists don't obey the rules of war, this should be the green light for the US military to abandon the Geneva Conventions and start nuking civilian centers.

Lt. Dooley has gone off the deep end.

If Americans did like what the Germans and Russians did to each other in such numbers and in such severity......i wonder how much crying you would do then....

I am not saying Americans are unique; this kind of brutality is done by many countries. However, since this discussion is about a course at a US military college, that's why I gave those examples.

 

[vsdoc]

The US is a world power. Unlike regional powers, their reach and involvement and engagement goes way beyond the region they live in.

For the past 3+ decades the US has been fighting wars all over the world.

And All their recent wars have been with Islamic countries.

The first time their mainland was attacked (Pearl Harbor was not mainland US) was by Islamists.

It is truly a falling out of some proportion because it is the US who was cosying up to most of the Islamic world since the end of WWII.

Iran. Pakistan. The UAE.

So it is no coincidence then today that the US believes that it is at war with something that goes beyond national boundaries.

Crosses ethnicities and race.

Crosses setarian lines.

What is common to all that strife is a particularly intolerant world view of Islam.

The US and its agencies are highly astute. They know well that in Islam there are deepfracture lines that cannot/will not heal.

Their wargaming does not lose sight of the fact that there is no such thing as a unified Islamic opposition.

They all hate the US. But more often than not they hate each much more.

It is therefore part of the exercise to bring down an enemy ideology.

By pitting the enemy within. By leveraging fault lines.

Not by doing something to rally all under one flag against a common enemy.

But if that were to happen - what then?

So you throw up different scenarios and take each to their logical conclusion. Shooting holes in each. Till a few remain with the least number of holes in them.

Can you fault the US on that?

The US knows it is in a war with an opposing ideology. With a huge number of followers.

But equally there are many who do not subscribe to the opposing ideology.

The trick lies in defeating the ideology without alienating the non-subscribers and pushing them over the edge.

The trick for the other side also lies in not polarizing into a situation where the lines get blurred between a moderate Muslim justifiably proud of his faith and beliefs and radical one who is willing to kill for the same, intolerant of the same for others.

 

[Audio]

Read the OP.

It says specifically that, since the terrorists don't obey the rules of war, this should be the green light for the US military to abandon the Geneva Conventions and start nuking civilian centers.
.

This going on the premise that the civilian centers would host refuge and provide support to the terrorists. The article is pretty clear this was meant as an end-game scenario. I presume after some monstrosity would have happened originating from the Muslim world.

There is also no military gain one could achieve by nuking Mecca/Medina unless the entire governing aparatus (which would now be openly hostile and providing support to terrorism) was there in session or something similar.

Also the lecture and its material were removed/confiscated on grounds of hate speech by the US military themselves and the lecturere is under investigation.

Its a dumb lecture anyway....but the populist view of some of the members made the debate about it reach page 32...

 

[Irfan Baloch]

the debate continues

@Developereo re your comment

I divide the 'West' into three groups of people.

-- radical fanatics (in three piece suits) who are no better than the Islamist fanatics.

-- mainstream ordinary people who are basically fair minded, despite being brainwashed by the fanatics above.

-- the dregs of society who are losers in real life and who try to bolster their self-esteem by beating their chests behind Western achievements

I mean

the third kind are ready made fodder for all the present and future campaigns "of freedom" in the world where ever Uncle Sam decides to park his military.
the second kind indeed is being constantly bombarded with movies, talk shows, articles and surveys and what not and thee are effects of this campaign. you will really have to struggle to find an unqualified condemnation of any sort of atrocities committed by the Americans.
on the contrary you will find tributes to the people who have made their own video footage of killing and collecting body parts of civilians as trophies.

so you will see
certain kind of individuals who deny that such tendency exists also maybe only few moments ago they would have praised the pilots of Apache that rained bullets on Civilians in Baghdad killing children and Associated press reporter

 

[King Solomon]

I mean

the third kind are ready made fodder for all the present and future campaigns "of freedom" in the world where ever Uncle Sam decides to park his military.
the second kind indeed is being constantly bombarded with movies, talk shows, articles and surveys and what not and thee are effects of this campaign. you will really have to struggle to find an unqualified condemnation of any sort of atrocities committed by the Americans.
on the contrary you will find tributes to the people who have made their own video footage of killing and collecting body parts of civilians as trophies.

You're heavily generalizing along with Developereo. I can tell that the first and third are a minority. Only a minority who often tends to bolster online due to their introvertness, but are chickens in real life.

In the end, its freedom of expression. You cannot really change someone who has been conditioned to hate something at a young age.

the debate continues
so you will see
certain kind of individuals who deny that such tendency exists also maybe only few moments ago they would have praised the pilots of Apache that rained bullets on Civilians in Baghdad killing children and Associated press reporter

Iraq is now a free society. The shia majority has gained power. Do you want Saddam in power in Iraq who killed so many shias based on sectarian hatred?

You have to thank USA for maintaining stability in the middle east between Sunni and Shia influence. Otherwise, if the balance tilted in any one's favour the result would be bloodshed.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

S-19

thanks for your honest comments

although revolting but actually supporting what I and developereo are saying

as far as thanking US for Iraqi invasion is concerned.. well I wont sink to such levels to thank America for the mass killing of Iraqis. the warcrimes that are reported by the American soldiers themselves when they blew the whistle dont show the American decision to invade Iraq as a favour to its people.

 

[King Solomon]

S-19

thanks for your honest comments

although revolting but actually supporting what I and developereo are saying

as far as thanking US for Iraqi invasion is concerned.. well I wont sink to such levels to thank America for the mass killing of Iraqis. the warcrimes that are reported by the American soldiers themselves. when they blew the whistle.

You're welcome. Well, about Iraq, it is just that the one or two incidents of killing by US soldiers that gets reported widely. We should not generalize the whole US military due to those one or two isolated incidents.

As per reported statistics, the majority of civilians were killed due to the shia-sunni sectarian war from 2005-2010. If people kill themselves you cannot do anything really. Earlier it was saddam doing it but now it has taken the form of suicide bombing and other terrorism. But overall, stability has been achieved now after US troops left.

Most civilians were killed before the war due to the sanctions and food shortage. But why do you blame the US for that? Other muslim countries like pakistan supported the sanctions against iraq after the gulf war. Could US have sanctioned iraq if not for the support of neighbouring muslim countries?

I would laud the US for cleaning up Iraq from the mess that it was. I hope Iraq can prosper economically again and successfully exploit its natural resources to its advantage. I don't see why people hate US. It is the muslims who killed muslims why blame US for that?