'U.S keen to build fighter jets in India'

[PDF]

Are there news coming to put pressure on the French? Or there is some weight on American fighter jets? How do you all think about these advancements in light of Pakistan-American defence relationship of many decades?

 

[Abingdonboy]

All this that you have written is just impractical

Nothing is more impractical than closer ties with the US. Let the leadership in both nations mature and it will become very reasonable to expect this.

If we can get US support on Good and reasonable terms ; JUST GRAB IT with BOTH HANDS

What are "good and reasonable terms"? No such terms exist where the US is concerned.

"Beware of Greeks bearing gifts"

We are done with China

We can keep Trading with them

But then even US and Japan have a HUGE trade with China

The Chinese support for Masood Azhar was the Proverbial last straw that
broke the camel's back

You can't be serious. Who has been , by FAR, the largest backer of Pakistan in the past 60 years? The US, China doesn't even come close. Every terror attack carried out on India has been carried out on the US's watch- if it wanted to it could get Pakistan to close down those terror outfits aimed at India overnight.

Without US backing Pakistan would not be the threat it is today to India, it would have collapsed long, long ago. If anyone is to blame for Pakistan it is the US, the Chinese are a distant second. Unless you want to hold the US to the same standard as the Chinese then it is pointless making this argument, all nations play these games and look out for their own interests above all else. Do you think India holds any special place in the hearts of the US? They will use India if given the chance.

I'm sorry brother but you are being very short sighted basing your opnions on the current situation but being entirely ignorant of history.

Are there news coming to put pressure on the French? Or there is some weight on American fighter jets? How do you all think about these advancements in light of Pakistan-American defence relationship of many decades?

I had thought it was as simple as this deal being recieved by the Indian side to put pressure on the French but I think that is too simplistic now. The Rafale deal is moving ahead no matter what instead, just like the Indo-US civil deal this is a CBM between the US and India and part of a wider policy by the US to rope in India into their "sphere of interest".

 

[dadeechi]

Are there news coming to put pressure on the French? Or there is some weight on American fighter jets? How do you all think about these advancements in light of Pakistan-American defence relationship of many decades?

Both RAFALE and US fighter jets deals are happening.

US fighter jet entry is happening due to the following reasons

1) Decrease in RAFALE numbers from the Original 189 to 126

2) Delay in FGFA deal with Russia

3) Delay is Tejas MK2 project

4) AMCA being a paper plane due to non-finalization of the engine

 

[Stephen Cohen]

Nothing is more impractical than closer ties with the US. Let the leadership in both nations mature and it will become very reasonable to expect this.


What are "good and reasonable terms"? No such terms exist where the US is concerned.

"Beware of Greeks bearing gifts"


You can't be serious. Who has been , by FAR, the largest backer of Pakistan in the past 60 years? The US, China doesn't even come close. Every terror attack carried out on India has been carried out on the US's watch- if it wanted to it could get Pakistan to close down those terror outfits aimed at India overnight.

Without US backing Pakistan would not be the threat it is today to India, it would have collapsed long, long ago. If anyone is to blame for Pakistan it is the US, the Chinese are a distant second. Unless you want to hold the US to the same standard as the Chinese then it is pointless making this argument, all nations play these games and look out for their own interests above all else. Do you think India holds any special place in the hearts of the US? They will use India if given the chance.

I'm sorry brother but you are being very short sighted basing your opnions on the current situation but being entirely ignorant of history.

If we go into US Pakistan and US India Relations till 2000 it will go on and on

This is a topic for another day

But the thing is US Pakistan relations are far worse than they were before 2001

What happened we all know

Today US is just giving Pakistan bare Minimum support so that they do not collapse
and to retain some leverage ; it is about leverage

But India's concerns are much different and much bigger now

They are about China ; these concerns are REAL
Add to it the China Pakistan alliance

So if India and USA can work together ; we should move forward

There is NO point in taking on China all alone ; in fact it is foolish

And mind you ; If we stay NON aligned as before it will NOT stop China's bullying

 

[PDF]

Both RAFALE and US fighter jets deals are happening.

US fighter jet entry is happening due to the following reasons

1) Decrease in RAFALE numbers from the Original 189 to 126

2) Delay in FGFA deal with Russia

3) Delay is Tejas MK2 project

4) AMCA being a paper plane due to non-finalization of the engine

Though this will increase India's strength which is bad from Pakistan P.O.V, but strangely I want this to happen...
Honestly,Maybe because I want India to regret this later as Pakistan understood it the hard way.
Anyway, hoping for the best.

 

[Indika]

You can't be serious. Who has been , by FAR, the largest backer of Pakistan in the past 60 years? The US, China doesn't even come close. Every terror attack carried out on India has been carried out on the US's watch- if it wanted to it could get Pakistan to close down those terror outfits aimed at India overnight.

Without US backing Pakistan would not be the threat it is today to India, it would have collapsed long, long ago. If anyone is to blame for Pakistan it is the US, the Chinese are a distant second. Unless you want to hold the US to the same standard as the Chinese then it is pointless making this argument, all nations play these games and look out for their own interests above all else. Do you think India holds any special place in the hearts of the US? They will use India if given the chance.

Yes you are absolutely right. Whether it is bombay blasts or 26/11 US has a hand in that. But why blame them , when we dont treat enemy as an enemy? India does not walk the talk, it is not like Israel whose political class is full of patriots.
As such there is no need for US to take India seriously.
We have a rogue political class who are more hell bent on grabbing power and enjoying the luxuries.

 

[Brahmaputra Mail]

Is it only me who thinks Parrikar is succumbing to US sugar coating ? I am amazed how the rejected planes F-16 and F/A 18 are making news into India now. Add to that LSA, CISMOA, BECA ! Are we competing with KSA and other US allies when it comes to collecting fancy equipments ? I understand we need cooperation for EMALS since our IAC-2 will be a CATOBAR and we may be needing F/A 18 for carrier borne operations, but if it's meant for airforce then it's smack on the face of IAF and its long trial runs.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

Actually, there are two small catches..

Source says Indian Navy has put a very specific requirement that it wants aircrafts on-board its carrier to take off under 1 minute versus present 4 minutes plus take off time..

This essentially puts the case in clear perspective that MII for any jet has to have a navalised version capable of such capability.

In essence, inspite of what all newspaper are quoting and have been discussed the much touted game of survival wont happen between F18 vs Rafale.

I am not yet aware if F18 can be operating from STOBAR specially since 15 years timeline makes me see 2 new Stobars ACC coming in surely of IAC1 class.. Not sure about IAC2 but may be possible... Rafale does claim of stobar capability but needs to demonstrate..

By the looks of it even if we consider a basic line from DM MP statement which has been posted before

There seems to be a small catch here

1.
off the shelf 18 jets
rest in mii = 300-18 = 282

total time period = 15 years
plant setup = 3 years
aircraft production year = 15-3= 12
Productivity = 23.5 or 24 jets a year

Strangely thats the minimum number needed by Boeing per year to keep its line alive...

2. Consider a scenario where suppose there are 2 manufacturers

manufacturer 1 -
Off the shelf - 0 - separate 36 ordered
MII - 90

plant setup = 3 years
productivity per year = 16-24
Time required for order fulfillment

for 16/ year = 5.625 years
for 24/year = 3.75 years
​

manufacturer 2 -
Off the shelf - 18
MII - 300-90-18= 192

plant setup = 3 years
productivity per year = 16-24
Time required for order fulfillment

for 16/ year = 12 years
for 24/year = 8 years​

As you see the 16/year for manufacturer 2 gives them the project total of 15 years but manufacturer 1 will find it extremely difficult to sustain a production line for just 9 years total and 90 jets

3. the structure 18 flyaway and rest 282 in MII - is it not MMRCA competition again

​

Strangely, what is making me feel a bit uncomfortable is such a structure will not solve our so many jets types plaguing IAF issue...

But then perhaps there is more than what meets the eye..

Since IAF is too quiet and so is IN, not even one statement in favour of any other jet of western origin except Rafale.

Lets see what US guarantees in its technology front for such a deal.. I have doubts about it but then who knows.. Carter and Parrikar may pull out something unique from their hats which both sides can agree onto...

 

[migflug]

Actually, there are two small catches..

Source says Indian Navy has put a very specific requirement that it wants aircrafts on-board its carrier to take off under 1 minute versus present 4 minutes plus take off time..

This essentially puts the case in clear perspective that MII for any jet has to have a navalised version capable of such capability.

In essence, inspite of what all newspaper are quoting and have been discussed the much touted game of survival wont happen between F18 vs Rafale.

I am not yet aware if F18 can be operating from STOBAR specially since 15 years timeline makes me see 2 new Stobars ACC coming in surely of IAC1 class.. Not sure about IAC2 but may be possible... Rafale does claim of stobar capability but needs to demonstrate..

By the looks of it even if we consider a basic line from DM MP statement which has been posted before

View attachment 299825

There seems to be a small catch here

1.
off the shelf 18 jets
rest in mii = 300-18 = 282

total time period = 15 years
plant setup = 3 years
aircraft production year = 15-3= 12
Productivity = 23.5 or 24 jets a year

Strangely thats the minimum number needed by Boeing per year to keep its line alive...

2. Consider a scenario where suppose there are 2 manufacturers

manufacturer 1 -
Off the shelf - 0 - separate 36 ordered
MII - 90

plant setup = 3 years
productivity per year = 16-24
Time required for order fulfillment

for 16/ year = 5.625 years
for 24/year = 3.75 years
​

manufacturer 2 -
Off the shelf - 18
MII - 300-90-18= 192

plant setup = 3 years
productivity per year = 16-24
Time required for order fulfillment

for 16/ year = 12 years
for 24/year = 8 years​

As you see the 16/year for manufacturer 2 gives them the project total of 15 years but manufacturer 1 will find it extremely difficult to sustain a production line for just 9 years total and 90 jets

3. the structure 18 flyaway and rest 282 in MII - is it not MMRCA competition again

​

Strangely, what is making me feel a bit uncomfortable is such a structure will not solve our so many jets types plaguing IAF issue...

But then perhaps there is more than what meets the eye..

Since IAF is too quiet and so is IN, not even one statement in favour of any other jet of western origin except Rafale.

Lets see what US guarantees in its technology front for such a deal.. I have doubts about it but then who knows.. Carter and Parrikar may pull out something unique from their hats which both sides can agree onto...

Can f 18 fly from stobar. How is adv sh18 comparable to rafale f3r. There are indication that we may go for two western planes ,one american other French.

 

[Stephen Cohen]

@PARIKRAMA

Any news on Rafale ; any progress ?

If we get F 18 ; then our present Mig 29 K can be transferred to the IAF
They are very capable Air to Air fighters

While F 18s will operate from Vikramaditya and Vikrant

 

[migflug]

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...-manohar-parrikar/articleshow/51761181.cmscms



PANAJI: India and the US are moving a step closer towards finalization of the long pending logistic support agreement (LAS) for peaceful purpose and the visit of US Secretary of Defence Ashton Carter to India will clear all aspects of the issue, Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar said on Saturday.

In an interview, he told STOI that the LAS which has been in discussions for the last 12 years is expected to be signed in the next few weeks.

Carter is arriving in Goa on Sunday on an invitation by Parrikar as a follow up to his visit to the US a few months ago. Carter will also visit aircraft carrier INS Vikramaditya at Karwar on Monday. The two leaders will later formally meet in Delhi.

Parrikar also said that India and the US are very close to finalizing transfer of technology under Defence Technology and Trade Initiative (DTTI) for an aircraft carrier. Once the US agrees for technology transfer, they will become eligible to bid for manufacture of aircraft under the Make In India programme.

He said both manufacturers in the US and a few other competitors from Europe have the capability of offering a Naval variant for quick aircraft take off. The US and a few other countries have technology which provides for aircraft take off from Naval carriers within 40 seconds as against the present aircraft available with the Indian Navy which takes between three to four minutes for a take off.

Speaking more on the proposal for F/A-18 Super Hornets (Boeing) and on F-16s (Lockheed Martin) to be made in India, Parrikar said the US government has shared the presentation for the two proposals with the Ministry of Defence ahead of Carter's visit.

"Once these two proposals are scrutinized by our technical team, we may accept those proposals and then they would be eligible to bid for the Make in India jet fighters proposal," he added.

Parrikar said India has been evaluating other bidders such as SAAB from Sweden, Rafale multirole combat aircraft from France and Eurofighter Typhoon from the European consortium. He expressed the optimism that the Make in India jet fighter deal would be concluded by end of 2016 or early 2017.

"We may select to buy aircraft from one or two companies / countries depending on our requirement and the bulk of it will be manufactured in India. A maximum of a squadron consisting of 18 aircraft may be bought outright from the winning bidder. A total of 300 aircraft, mostly for the Indian Air force, will be manufactured over a 15-year period," Parrikar said. He also said that India is looking to also export the fighter jets after its manufacture here.

Parrikar said that he and Carter had developed a good equation because he (Carter) "is very open, frank and good natured and I somehow click with him". "The official talks will happen on April 12 in Delhi but during the time we spend in Goa together, he would be able to discuss some issues and informally come to conclusions on many other issues," the defence minister said. He added that informal meetings do help in building confidence with international leaders. Parrikar said that India wants good relations with the US but on an equal platform but "that does not mean we will sacrifice our independence or our relations with anyone else".

On Carter's statement that the US is looking at India as part of their global agenda and not like Pakistan, Parrikar said that is the level which the country wants to achieve. Parrikar also said that he will push the US to put pressure on Pakistan to act against terrorism. "The terrorism issue, sharing intelligence and real time intelligence on terror would be discussed during his meeting with Carter," he said. Parrikar also said that the jet engine proposal from the US, and its transfer of technology is still yet to mature. "There are still some negotiations (on jet engine) required before we can go ahead," he added.

Carter, accompanied by Parrikar, will visit the Basilica of Bom Jesus at Old Goa and the Mangueshi temple on Sunday.


Looks like we are talking for navy as well. 300 planes is a huge number. Clearly its ash f18 vs rafale where rafale seems to be lagging.
Hope we get substantial tot on engine if f 18 make its way to iaf and navy

 

[PARIKRAMA]

Can f 18 fly from stobar. How is adv sh18 comparable to rafale f3r. There are indication that we may go for two western planes ,one american other French.

In the eyes of many folks, the F18 ASH much touted the EWB in enclosed centerline provides semi stealthy feature along with certain reservations which has been highlighted.

Some of these points are

• IAF emphasis on aerodynamic superiority in equal proportion with sensors, the offensive and defensive EW package, avionics and weapons
• The 18 original rejection was based on 4 points
  • Maturity of its engine design, - which is now rectified and proven
  • the growth potential of its engine, - very very limited
  • assorted performance shortfalls, - energy bleed, limited G's
  • issues related to special preventative maintenance.
• The 18s engine especially the EPE even though is now a much matured platform and a advanced design, IAF evaluation at original MMRCA with the EPE engine showed that the plane actually did benefit with 20 percent thrust additions in the following fields
  • 18s climb performance,
  • its transonic acceleration,
  • its maximum sustained G,
  • its maximum sustained turn rates, and
  • its top-end speed all improved considerably,
  • with beneficial impact on its performance in both the A2A and the A2G missions
• The IAF’s judgment about the limited growth potential of the Ge 414 EPE is actually correct bcz even with every new upgrade and advancement of sensors and weapons, the overall weight of the aircraft increases slowly but surely. A case in example is between F3 and present Rafale and proposed F3R the actual weight addition by some estimations is almost 700 kgs which necessitates the case for engine to have future developmental scope too.
• Most significantly, the F/A-18E/F was perceived to have fallen short in aerodynamic performance, especially with respect to those parameters that distinguish the nimblest of fighters from the rest.
• These assessments are not surprising.
  • Although F18s remains one of the most carefree aircraft in the world where handling is concerned,
  • with a high alpha performance to boot,
  • it has traditionally been hampered by weaker energy addition compared to its contemporaries.
  • Further, it still remains qualified only for maneuveres up to 7.5G - Raffy does 9G and even 11G
  • The bleed is a little bit offsetted by the increased thrust EPE engine but still the whole aircraft does not change with just the engine enhancement.
• In contrast to the IAF’s ASQRs will specify a criterion of 9G unless its relaxed to 7.5G
• The limitations make the 18s have a disadvantage in turning fights but with sensors and weapons it mitigates these issues.
• Its emphasis on its radar, sensor and weapons places it more suitable for longer range combat but if it has to engage in WVR then again its weapons package sees it through inspite of an unfavourable hostile zone of engagement
  

But IAF as i said above will always put an emphasis on these parameters with a very special emphasis on maneuverability, acceleration and aerodynamic superiority

As for cost part

• The original F18SH with 404 engine was USD60 Mn approx
• The one with 414 and EWB is around USD 70-75 Mn
• The original Rafale as per MMRCA was USD 85 Mn
• The customization and other considerations will be the key here in understanding whats the cost in package form.

Rafale will be better suited bcz of the fact that it addresses on these issues front which we have discussed a lot..

btw Boeing also tried showing a replacement design for the 18s

But then it did not progress much

IMHO , the 18s being a true carrier based fighter with a land variant, its highly unsuitable for interceptor, dog fighting and most critically the missions of SEAD/DEAD where i forsee in future a more of low altitude close to mid range engagement to the max of 60 kms range..

In this particular aspect, Rafale has a unique capability to automatically follow the ground using both numeric maps and SAR radar capabilities, limited at 100 feet, 540 Knots or 1000 km/hr or 0.8 Mach and 5.5 G

The whole package to survive such a mission probability for 18s , I am sure will be less than Rafale... when you get such a capability and performance in a low altitude flight it changes the perspective and scope of battles..

What i am keen is the weapons and customization part and the package cost... if the negotiation terms are similar, we should see apple to apple comparison..

and I am confident the GOI/MOD/IAF/IN would choose the optimum aircraft based on every variable we might have discussed or outside of what we have known so far surely..

 

[Spectre]

It is not happening much to my dismay. Too many ifs and buts plus US is not ready to give all the assurances needed to guarantee transfer of critical technology.

@PARIKRAMA the main attraction of the deal to India was unheard before offer to transfer complete tech of EPE to India. In final discussions when GE back tracked a bit and offered transfer it to JV in stages stretching to decades. This takes away control from GoI as many governments will change in interim and tech will also get obsolete by the time full transfer happens. Also there is a risk that in collusion with JV some critical part of tech can be withheld. Thus monitoring, control and trust deficit were the major spoliers

India proposal was the numbers you have outlined with transfer of tech along with line to a nominee of GoI after the initial 18. In additions growlers were the downrated ones for export not the NG.

This does not mean the deal cannot happen. Just the quick and fast clearance on G2G level is not happening which would have ensured delivery from '17.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

Any news on Rafale ; any progress ?

• Wait for May/June.. thats the outer limit as of now..
• post Carter visit, some progress in FGFA is expected and then Rafale news will be out...
• Its something which is going to happen..
• importantly, the figure of 300 jets for either 1 or 2 aircrafts is what i always said that potentially even if its only Rafale the MII would see Rafale in indian colors to match French original 286 numbers and perhaps 300..
• USA is courted of course but dont go by what DM MP is showing in public,,, what i am hearing is he is the biggest stumbling roadblock against foundation agreements and US fighter jets..
• Whatever the best deal US will give, MP will me Le Drian and ask French side to match it and even better it when they talk either over phone or in a meeting via their representatives or even if Doval meets them personally.
• So USA wont give the best quote so soon nor the negotiations would either start or end as media is projecting in terms of timeline
• its going to be a good roller coaster ride in coming weeks and max 1.5 months with pro US , pro Russia and here and there SAAB articles and Rafale bashing.

If we get F 18 ; then our present Mig 29 K can be transferred to the IAF
They are very capable Air to Air fighters

The carrier capable fighters have a reinforced Under carriage .. they are heavy additions and will not suit their change of roles from IN to IAF, so we cant shift them like that.. unless we strip them of such over weights and which is a costly issue with perhaps nullifying the OEM support package conditions.

While F 18s will operate from Vikramaditya and Vikrant

We have to demonstrate the capability first.. perhaps in the Hansa, Goa where Indian Navy's Shore Based Test Facility -SBTF is there.. so check there and then perhaps in vikramaditya. The same goes to Rafale as well .. we have to see its weapons carrying and fuel carrying capacity for such a mission from stobar

 

[Spectre]

@PARIKRAMA

Any news on Rafale ; any progress ?

If we get F 18 ; then our present Mig 29 K can be transferred to the IAF
They are very capable Air to Air fighters

While F 18s will operate from Vikramaditya and Vikrant

36 are done, there is no way to backtrack without penalties. MoD had hoped to stop it there as the budget does not allow for the numbers required. The slack would have been picked up by US jets which were coming at much more value proposition to Rafale along with unbelievable promises of ToT which even the French hadn't offered. This however did not materialize.

ALL INDIAN MEMBERS - Get ready for MMRCA 2.