'U.S keen to build fighter jets in India'

[Abingdonboy]

2 Billion USD price divergence

I wonder how the MoD has arrived at their estimate because they are rather naive to think that any other OEM will offer $2BN less than what Dassualt is offering, there is no way the Rafale is that much more expensive than any other plane in the running so it strikes me as though the DM is being unrealistic- not a huge surprise there, the guy is clearly out of his depth.

2. Indian partner preferred by DA is controversial. MoD irrespective of it's make in india hoopla prefers HAL to do the heavy lifting

I'm guessing Reliance.

+ The part about HAL is most bizzare because no other foreign OEM is looking to tie up with HAL at this point (SAAB said they will follow the Dassualt route and tie up with an Indian partner and Boeing has said they will create a production unit under their Boeing India subsidary (in which they have 100% ownership). Furthermore, this is at a time when the MoD and the ADA is begining to open up HAL to private competition (TATA- C-295W) and outsourcing HAL-run projects to the private sector (LCA-in parts). So this flies in the face of accepted government policy.

however F-18 raised eyebrows because of the level of ToT they were willing to offer but later backtracked on.

The offer that Boeing made without any actual authority to make such offers? Again, it cannot be stated enough- Boeing (and LM) have ZERO place making any ToT offers because the USG is yet to sign off on it so only an idiot in the MoD would have their eyebrows raised by such an offer from an American OEM. Perhaps that was the point of such offers- to get the attention of the clowns in the MoD.

SO grand total will be 7+2.5+1+0.8... = USD 11.3 Bn

Thats the approximation..

Lets say its a case of discounts too.. Discounts by

10 percent - USD 10.17 Bn +
20 percent - USD 9.04 Bn +
25 percent - USD 7.91 Bn +

++
How is it cheaper than Rafale.. and that also the claims by a huge margin........

Because that's the narrative that has been created, logic be damned.

I don't know why I have to keep repeating this. Two Lines - One for Tejas under private sector and one under foreign collaboration which could be Rafales, F-18, F-16, Gripen, Mig-35 or hawa hawai for all i care.

Rafales under MII have not been finalized yet. Only the 36+18 is confirmed

With the Rafale (36+18) buy set in stone, more fool the joker that greenlights the purchase of another MMRCA (that is not the Rafale) to be made in India. The logistical mess that would ensue over the span of the next 40 years is going to cost a hell of a lot more than $2BN USD that the MoD is currently cribbing over not to mention the time delays that WILL be incurred. Dassualt have already made their MII offer, no other OEM is in a postion to do so and it will be another 24 months at least before they could be if given the same kind of privlaged accsess as DA.


What an unholy mess these clowns in the GoI/MoD are creating all to boot lick their overlords in Washington DC.

 

[Spectre]

I wonder how the MoD has arrived at their estimate because they are rather naive to think that any other OEM will offer $2BN less than what Dassualt is offering, there is no way the Rafale is that much more expensive than any other plane in the running so it strikes me as though the DM is being unrealistic- not a huge surprise there, the guy is clearly out of his depth.


I'm guessing Reliance.

+ The part about HAL is most bizzare because no other foreign OEM is looking to tie up with HAL at this point (SAAB said they will follow the Dassualt route and tie up with an Indian partner and Boeing has said they will create a production unit under their Boeing India subsidary (in which they have 100% ownership). Furthermore, this is at a time when the MoD and the ADA is begining to open up HAL to private competition (TATA- C-295W) and outsourcing HAL-run projects to the private sector (LCA-in parts). So this flies in the face of accepted government policy.




The offer that Boeing made without any actual authority to make such offers? Again, it cannot be stated enough- Boeing (and LM) have ZERO place making any ToT offers because the USG is yet to sign off on it so only an idiot in the MoD would have their eyebrows raised by such an offer from an American OEM. Perhaps that was the point of such offers- to get the attention of the clowns in the MoD.


Because that's the narrative that has been created, logic be damned.





With the Rafale (36+18) buy set in stone, more fool the joker that greenlights the purchase of another MMRCA (that is not the Rafale) to be made in India. The logistical mess that would ensue over the span of the next 40 years is going to cost a hell of a lot more than $2BN USD that the MoD is currently cribbing over not to mention the time delays that WILL be incurred. Dassualt have already made their MII offer, no other OEM is in a postion to do so and it will be another 24 months at least before they could be if given the same kind of privlaged accsess as DA.


What an unholy mess these clowns in the GoI/MoD are creating all to boot lick their overlords in Washington DC.

Most of the problems arise due to the fact that MoD, Indian Press and others are not used to dealing in total cost basis. Flyaway cost of Russian Jets are dirt cheap when you consider it on standalone basis but over their life cycle the extract the cost of the weight of blue whale in gold but still leave us with poor service rate and abysmal safety record.

It would have been better if the deal would have been publicized as 3.2 Billion USD cost and the remaining kept under the radar or spread out yearly. Weapons and Base package should have been marketed as another deal later.

As things stand now to a layman it seems we were going to buy 126 for 10 billion and now we are down to 36 for 10 billion. The Baniya in us is resistant to such a deal.

TLDR - Marketing Failure

@PARIKRAMA

 

[zebra7]

oh some data as usual to help all folks

Brazil – F/A-18E/F Super Hornet Aircraft
Media/Public Contact: Lorna Jons (703) 604-6618
Transmittal No: 09-35
WASHINGTON --- Today the Defense Security Cooperation Agency (DSCA) notified Congress of a possible Foreign Military Sale to the Government of Brazil of 28 F/A-18E Super Hornet Aircraft, eight F/A-18F Super Hornet Aircraft, 72 F414-GE-400 installed engines, a host of spare parts and munitions at an estimated value of $7.0 billion.

The Government of Brazil has requested proposals from several foreign suppliers, including the United States, to provide the next generation fighter for the Brazilian Air Force. In this “FX-2” competition, the Government of Brazil has yet to select the United States Navy-Boeing proposal.

This notification is being made in advance of receipt of a letter of request so that, in the event that the US Navy-Boeing proposal is selected, the United States might move as quickly as possible to implement the sale.

If the Government of Brazil selects the U.S. Navy-Boeing proposal, the Government of Brazil will request a possible sale of:

-- 28 F/A-18E Super Hornet Aircraft,
-- eight F/A-18F Super Hornet Aircraft,
-- 72 F414-GE-400 installed engines,
-- four F414-GE-400 spare engines,
-- 36 AN/APG-79 Radar Systems,
-- 36 M61A2 20mm Gun Systems,
-- 36 AN/ALR-67(V) three Radar Warning Receivers,
-- 144 LAU-127 Launchers,
-- 44 Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing Systems (JHMCS),
-- 28 AIM-120C-7 Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missiles (AMRAAM),
-- 28 AIM-9M Sidewinder Missiles,
-- 60 GBU-31/32 Joint Direct Attack Munitions (JDAM),
-- 36 AGM-154 Joint Standoff Weapons (JSOW),
-- 10 AGM-88B HARM Missiles, and
-- 36 AN/ASQ-228 (V2) Advanced Targeting Forward-Looking Infrared (ATFLIR) Pods.

Also included are
-- 36 AN/ALQ-214 Radio Frequency Countermeasures.
-- 40 AN/ALE-47 Electronic Warfare Countermeasures Systems,
-- 112 AN/ALE-50 Towed Decoys,
-- Joint Mission Planning System,
-- support equipment,
-- spare and repair parts,
-- personnel training and training equipment,
-- ferry and tanker support,
-- flight test,
-- software support,
-- publications and technical documents,
-- U.S. Government and contractor engineering,
-- technical and logistics support services, and
-- other related elements of logistics and program support.

This proposed sale will contribute to the foreign policy and national security of the United States by helping to improve the security of a friendly country that has been, and continues to be, an important force for political stability and economic progress in South America.

Brazil needs these aircraft to meet current and future threats. The proposed sale of F/A-18E/F aircraft will enhance Brazil’s tactical aviation capabilities. An increase in capability will be accrued primarily due to the larger number of aircraft and the larger range and endurance of the F/A-18E/F. Brazil will have no difficulty absorbing these aircraft into its aircraft inventory. The proposed sale of this equipment and support will not alter the basic military balance in the region.

The principal contractors will be:
--The Boeing Company St. Louis, Mo.
--General Electric Aircraft Engines Lynn, Mass.
--Northrop Grumman Corporation El Segundo, Calif.
--Raytheon Corporation El Segundo, Calif.
--Lockheed Martin Bethesda, Md.

Offsets agreements associated with this proposed sale are expected; however, specific agreements are undetermined and will be defined during negotiations between the purchaser and contractor.

Implementation of this sale will require approximately eight contractor representatives to provide technical and logistics support in Brazil for two years. U.S. Government and contractor representatives will also participate in program management and technical reviews for one-week intervals twice semi-annually.

There will be no adverse impact on U.S. defense readiness as a result of this proposed sale.

This notice of a potential sale is required by law and does not mean the sale has been concluded.

Brazil – F/A-18E/F Super Hornet Aircraft | The Official Home of the Defense Security Cooperation Agency

+++++
36 jets for USD 7 Bn..

• Add Indian customizations...
• Infrastructure + 2 bases
• ETC

Now,

• 2 bases would cost easily USD 2.5 Bn plus
• Customizations would cost minimum USD 1 Bn
• more weapons will be ordered as its too small contingent so add 0.8-1bn usd irrespective of any discount

SO grand total will be 7+2.5+1+0.8... = USD 11.3 Bn

Thats the approximation..

Lets say its a case of discounts too.. Discounts by

10 percent - USD 10.17 Bn +
20 percent - USD 9.04 Bn +
25 percent - USD 7.91 Bn +

++
How is it cheaper than Rafale.. and that also the claims by a huge margin........



edited as random pointed brazillian deal had 100 percent offset

LOL, as usual bro you hit the nail right on head.

 

[Abingdonboy]

Most of the problems arise due to the fact that MoD, Indian Press and others are not used to dealing in total cost basis. Flyaway cost of Russian Jets are dirt cheap when you consider it on standalone basis but over their life cycle the extract the cost of the weight of blue whale in gold but still leave us with poor service rate and abysmal safety record.

It would have been better if the deal would have been publicized as 3.2 Billion USD cost and the remaining kept under the radar or spread out yearly. Weapons and Base package should have been marketed as another deal later.

As things stand now to a layman it seems we were going to buy 126 for 10 billion and now we are down to 36 for 10 billion. The Baniya in us is resistant to such a deal.

TLDR - Marketing Failure

@PARIKRAMA

I can't disagree, it is total baniya logic on display across the board from the DM to the media to the Indian public (who aren't defence enthusiasts).

 

[Akasa]

Mate, it's may be because that there is no hard data available on Chinese system for evaluation with American or russian systems. There is always so much secrecy about Chinese weapon programmes that no one outside Chinese military can validate that.
Also, there is usually no public reports of test failures of various weapon platforms...

At best, analyst can guess about Chinese weapons and missiles...
To get them compared u need to remove the wall of secrecy and provide valid info and also publish some of the failures too in uncensored media or agency.

And hence no performance comparisons should be made.

 

[Masterhunter]

And hence no performance comparisons should be made.

So how do we know that they are better than American and Russian system... We all know that most of Chinese platforms are Russian copy paste or influenced... With Chinese input...
A copy is always inferior to original product..
That is why most of analyst consider Chinese system inferior to American or russian systems.
No one can take the words of PLAAF or PLA alone on how impressive these systems...
None of the Chinese system has seen any action or say major international exercises..

 

[Akasa]

So how do we know that they are better than American and Russian system...

We don't. Which is why we should refrain from judgment until details are available.

We all know that most of Chinese platforms are Russian copy paste or influenced... With Chinese input...
A copy is always inferior to original product..

That is a very sweeping generalization and one that has been long outdated. And to propose that a platform is "inferior" to another solely due to a hypothetical technical relationship is ridiculous as it is unfounded.

That is why most of analyst consider Chinese system inferior to American or russian systems.

Name me one of these "analysts". Does he/she have access to "hard data" that you deem so important?

No one can take the words of PLAAF or PLA alone on how impressive these systems...

Neither the PLAAF nor PLA has made any official statements regarding their systems.

None of the Chinese system has seen any action or say major international exercises..

Which does not preclude them from being perfectly capable of fulfilling their roles.

 

[randomradio]

I don't know why I have to keep repeating this. Two Lines - One for Tejas under private sector and one under foreign collaboration which could be Rafales, F-18, F-16, Gripen, Mig-35 or hawa hawai for all i care.

Rafales under MII have not been finalized yet. Only the 36+18 is confirmed

Dude, Parrikar never talked about the LCA line as one of those lines. And LCA line for a private company is practically dead. He is talking about importing two fighter lines. Note the word 'importing'.

If the LSA program takes off, all of these programs are dead on arrival anyway.

 

[wiseone2]

'U.S keen to build fighter jets in India'

Dinakar Peri

India, US considering up to 17 joint projects in defence: senior US official - The Hindu

more like final assembly of fighter jets

 

[Abingdonboy]

more like final assembly of fighter jets

Final assembly in s 100% subsidary of Boeing.

 

[randomradio]

I don't know why I have to keep repeating this. Two Lines - One for Tejas under private sector and one under foreign collaboration which could be Rafales, F-18, F-16, Gripen, Mig-35 or hawa hawai for all i care.

Rafales under MII have not been finalized yet. Only the 36+18 is confirmed

Trappier's confirmed 90 jets for Make in India.

 

[Spectre]

Trappier's confirmed 90 jets for Make in India.

Unilateral confirmation ain't worth a thing. Even Today I will hold to my statement as contract isn't hardened.

 

[randomradio]

Unilateral confirmation ain't worth a thing. Even Today I will hold to my statement as contract isn't hardened.

No, the offsets for the 36 jets has provision for Make in India. The 90 jets deal is guaranteed.

Of course, negotiations for MII are yet to start, but the point is it is linked to the 36. The price for MII will be part of the 36 jet deal.

It's not a unilateral confirmation. IAF chief has also confirmed months ago that Rafales will be built in India.

 

[Spectre]

No, the offsets for the 36 jets has provision for Make in India. The 90 jets deal is guaranteed.

Of course, negotiations for MII are yet to start, but the point is it is linked to the 36. The price for MII will be part of the 36 jet deal.

It's not a unilateral confirmation. IAF chief has also confirmed months ago that Rafales will be built in India.

This is a contradictory stand, let's wait for negotiations to start and finish. Then we can pop open the bubbly.

 

[Stephen Cohen]

I don't know why I have to keep repeating this. Two Lines - One for Tejas under private sector and one under foreign collaboration which could be Rafales, F-18, F-16, Gripen, Mig-35 or hawa hawai for all i care.

Private sector will not make Tejas

Nobody wants to work with HAL ; HAL has made investments for Tejas

And since Rafale is going to be made in Private sector ; Tejas will be made by HAL

So Tejas ; SU 30 and then later FGFA / PAK FA by HAL

Rafale by Private sector