'U.S keen to build fighter jets in India'

[Stephen Cohen]

India, US closer to signing logistic support agreement: Manohar Parrikar - Times of India

"We may select to buy aircraft from one or two companies / countries depending on our requirement and the bulk of it will be manufactured in India. A maximum of a squadron consisting of 18 aircraft may be bought outright from the winning bidder.

A total of 300 aircraft, mostly for the Indian Air force, will be manufactured over a 15-year period," Parrikar said

He also said that India is looking to also export the fighter jets after its manufacture here.

 

[Akasa]

LOL you are even behind the russians and you want to ask me to explain? Care to explain one single platform you have better? Ours is tried and tested platform used globally, while your stuff is only what? a CCP claim on paper while heavily censored.

Sorry bud, but the burden of proof lies with the claimant.

P.S. As before, elaborate on how Russians are "ahead". In what sense? By what magnitude?

 

[dadeechi]

SInce IAF has a need for 300 planes we can SPLIT the order
between Rafale and F 18

The 300 fighters would be over the RAFALE deal.

India would procure at least 200+ fighters under DTTI.

126 - RAFALEs
108 - Tejas MK1As
160 - F-16s
108 - F/A-18
312 - Super Sukhois
===========================
816 - Total (51 Squadrons)

 

[Stephen Cohen]

The 300 fighter would be over the RAFALE deal.

India would procure at least 200+ fighters under DTTI.

126 - RAFALEs
108 - Tejas MK1As
160 - F-16s
108 - F/A-18
312 - Super Sukhois
===========================
816 - Total (51 Squadrons)

We would be getting ONLY One US plane

Along with Rafale

The good thing is that The Defence Minister has clearly laid out the
NEED for 300 new Planes in the next 15 years

 

[Abingdonboy]

Sorry to pour a cold bucket of reality on this but as long as the US restricts ToT to India these are all pipe dreams you.

Right now the US is in the midst of a presedential election, no such clearances are going to be given to India for at least 2 years- all this talk of setting up manufacturing plants in India are a complete LIE until that happens and putting the cart WAY before the horse.

Furthermore, Boeing's stance of owning the production unit to make F-18s in India flies directly in the face of the MoD's new DPP, the MII policy and the MoD's own FDI rules.


At this point I don't think Parrikar knows what he's doing himself anymore, true to form this news is itself contradicting what he himself has already said- remember his comments about the F-22? If a nation is willing to sell the highest tech to India to be made in India then they'll (MoD) will look at it but offering to make obsolete F-16s and F-18s that have come to the end of their development cycle in India flies in the face of this. Who else is buying the F-18 in 2016? NO ONE. The US is trying to dump their relics on India- more fool the person that okays this and shame on the Indian media for cheerleading this farce.

Plus all this talk about signing LSA has not mentioned any progress with CISMOA or BECA which would be condtional on any such fighter deal so.... what am I not seeing? Despite all these hurdles the American jets are getting ordered? Please.

 

[Desertfalcon]

Furthermore, Boeing's stance of owning the production unit to make F-18s in India flies directly in the face of the MoD's new DPP, the MII policy and the MoD's own FDI rules.

Among other reasons but yes, it's a pipe dream of some.

 

[Abingdonboy]

Among other reasons but yes, it's a pipe dream of some.

To be honest, the Indo-US relationship is marked by lofty ambitions and loses itself in implementation. 8 years after the Indo-US civil nuclear deal and there isn't anything to show for it, 10+ years after DTTI was first begun and the results are absolutely zilch. No matter what the two leaders may proclaim about "defining partnerships" and "shared vision" there is too much getting in the way of these two very different nations and on a micro level things just don't work. The US and India have both demonstrated to the other that they are no friend of the other.

The F-18 deal will be like all other "strategic engagements" that have been discussed before- it will be on the "agenda" for the next decade with no real progress.

 

[Desertfalcon]

To be honest, the Indo-US relationship is marked by lofty ambitions and loses itself in implementation. 8 years after the Indo-US civil nuclear deal and there isn't anything to show for it, 10+ years after DTTI was first begun and the results are absolutely zilch. No matter what the two leaders may proclaim about "defining partnerships" and "shared vision" there is too much getting in the way of these two very different nations and on a micro level things just don't work. The US and India have both demonstrated to the other that they are no friend of the other.

The F-18 deal will be like all other "strategic engagements" that have been discussed before- it will be on the "agenda" for the next decade with no real progress.

I agree completely. It's the politics of idealism meets reality. Reality always wins.

 

[Stephen Cohen]

Sorry to pour a cold bucket of reality on this but as long as the US restricts ToT to India these are all pipe dreams you.

Right now the US is in the midst of a presedential election, no such clearances are going to be given to India for at least 2 years- all this talk of setting up manufacturing plants in India are a complete LIE until that happens and putting the cart WAY before the horse.

Furthermore, Boeing's stance of owning the production unit to make F-18s in India flies directly in the face of the MoD's new DPP, the MII policy and the MoD's own FDI rules.


At this point I don't think Parrikar knows what he's doing himself anymore, true to form this news is itself contradicting what he himself has already said- remember his comments about the F-22? If a nation is willing to sell the highest tech to India to be made in India then they'll (MoD) will look at it but offering to make obsolete F-16s and F-18s that have come to the end of their development cycle in India flies in the face of this. Who else is buying the F-18 in 2016? NO ONE. The US is trying to dump their relics on India- more fool the person that okays this and shame on the Indian media for cheerleading this farce.

Plus all this talk about signing LSA has not mentioned any progress with CISMOA or BECA which would be condtional on any such fighter deal so.... what am I not seeing? Despite all these hurdles the American jets are getting ordered? Please.

This time the situation is different

US really wants to consolidate and strengthen the Anti China alliance

And the issue of the Fighter planes is also one part of this aim

F 18 s will be very useful even for the Navy

If LSA has been overcome and there are reports that CISMOA will also be overcome soon
then we can really move fast on this fighter plane deal

Let us be optimistic here

US policy changes SLOWLY ; but when it changes there is a Tectonic shift

Remember the Nuclear deal

From sanctions on India to the present situation where we are buying up
ALL the fuel that we need is something NOBODY would have imagined in 2005

When US looks at China's threats and Pakistan's PAST and present behaviour
It cant get any better friend than India

Japan and other countries are just too small

 

[Abingdonboy]

This time the situation is different

I've been hearing this for a long time, there is no reason why "this time" anything will change.

US really wants to consolidate and strengthen the Anti China alliance

Well India has already told the US to "sod off" in this regard haven't they? Actions speak louder than words.

F 18 s will be very useful even for the Navy

And this is why the IN has catergorically ruled out the F-18? The Rafale-M is top of their agenda now- confirmed.

If LSA has been overcome and there are reports that CISMOA will also be overcome soon
then we can really move fast on this fighter plane deal

1) LSA is still an "if"
2) CISMOA is a whole different kettle of fish, LSA is progressing because the IN is pushing for it but CISOMA has no real support from any of the armed forces nor does BECA and in fact both are opposed by the security establishment so don't expect any miracales on that front.
3) Nothing between India and the US moves "really fast"- literally nothing at all.

When the DTTI has failed to throw up a SINGLE useful project in TEN plus years we are expecting the jump to fighter aircraft to happen almost overnight and that too during an election season in the US?

Let us be optimistic here

Let's be realistic brother.

Remember the Nuclear deal

I do, 8 years down the line, what is there to show for it? Russia and France have signed multiple deals for nuclear reactors in India, the US hasn't signed a single deal.

When US looks at China's threats and Pakistan's PAST and present behaviour
It cant get any better friend than India

Let's not delude ourselves, both sides (India and the US) have engaged in very antagonistic behaviours towards the other in the recent past. The leadership of the two nations may state one thing but the systems in place are not compatible with one another.

Again, actions speak louder than words- a few weeks ago the US cleared the sale of F-16s to Pakistan; a few WEEKS ago, do you think US foreign policy has turned 180" overnight? We are being naive to think this deal is on the horizon, all things being equal it would take a good 5 years to get a commerical agreement in place BUT this is without resolving a key issue that is Boeing refusing to adhere to even the most basic tenants of the "Make in India" policy.

Now this is an "unworkable" deal

 

[Stephen Cohen]

I do, 8 years down the line, what is there to show for it? Russia and France have signed multiple deals for nuclear reactors in India, the US hasn't signed a single deal.

We have only signed a deal with Russia

Our main requirement is fuel and that is getting fulfilled ; Thanks to USA

Well India has already told the US to "sod off" in this regard haven't they? Actions speak louder than words.

Our objections were against an Anti Russia alliance

We are happy to join an Anti China alliance

Let's not delude ourselves, both sides have engaged in very antagonistic behaviours towards the other in the recent past. The leadership of the two nations may state one thing but the systems in place are not compatible with one another.

Where there is a will there is a way

I've been hearing this for a long time, there is no reason why "this time" anything will change.

Because the Common Denominator is China

For USA ; China is proving to be quite a handful ; it needs MORE allies

The Conflicts in the Indo - Pacific Ocean are just beginning

India too does not want the Chinese to throw their weight around in the Indian Ocean region
as they do in South China sea

 

[Abingdonboy]

We have only signed a deal with Russia

2 deals signed with Russia and 1 with France (Jaitpur) is all but finalised.

Our objections were against an Anti Russia alliance

We are happy to join an Anti China alliance

False. The US tried to rope in India into joint SCS naval patrols and India, rightly, told the US "no".

Where there is a will there is a way

I'm sorry but this is meaningless brother, look at the glacial speed all other Indo-US deals have progressed thus far, there is nothing to signal this would be any different. The most basic of condtions don't even exist- the ability for US OEMs to offer ToT to India, forget about the complext offset and localised production talks that have yet to even begin.

There is no greater urgency today, China is slowing down and consolidating and India is entering its own phase of high growth. India doesn't need to hang on to anyone's coat strings to be a power in its own right, what self respecting nation would sell itself out in the manner you are supporting?

Because the Common Denominator is China

For USA ; China is proving to be quite a handful ; it needs MORE allies

The Conflicts in the Indo - Pacific Ocean are just beginning

India too does not want the Chinese to throw their weight around in the Indian Ocean region
as they do in South China sea

Do you think it is in India's interests to join the US in an "anti-Chinese alliance"? The US has the luxury of thousands of kms of ocean seperating it from China, India does not. Any conflict between these two will be dirty and bloody and will set back BOTH immeasurably anf guess who benefits? The US.

India does not need and will not take US assistance to address its issues with China, that can be done on a bilateral basis. There is far more India and China can acheive TOGETHER, it is only in the interests of the West for these two giants to fight among themselves, the sooner the leadership in both Beijing and Delhi appreciate this the better. The trouble is too many so-called "intellectuals" are buttered up by the well oiled propoganda and lobbyist machine run out of Washington DC.

 

[Stephen Cohen]

2 deals signed with Russia and 1 with France (Jaitpur) is all but finalised.


False. The US tried to rope in India into joint SCS naval patrols and India, rightly, told the US "no".


I'm sorry but this is meaningless brother, look at the glacial speed all other Indo-US deals have progressed thus far, there is nothing to signal this would be any different. The most basic of condtions don't even exist- the ability for US OEMs to offer ToT to India, forget about the complext offset and localised production talks that have yet to even begin.

There is no greater urgency today, China is slowing down and consolidating and India is entering its own phase of high growth. India doesn't need to hang on to anyone's coat strings to be a power in its own right, what self respecting nation would sell itself out in the manner you are supporting?



Do you think it is in India's interests to join the US in an "anti-Chinese alliance"? The US has the luxury of thousands of kms of ocean seperating it from China, India does not. Any conflict between these two will be dirty and bloody and will set back BOTH immeasurably anf guess who benefits? The US.

India does not need and will not US assistance to address its issues with China, they can be done on a bi-lateral basis. There is far more India and China can acheive TOGETHER, it is only in the interests of the West for these two giants to fight among themselves, the sooner the leadership in both Beijing and Delhi appreciate this the better. The trouble is too many so-called "intellectuals" are buttered up by the well oiled propoganda and lobbyist machine run out of Washington DC.

India has tried its level best to be friends with China
We have recognised Tibet's accession

We have given up Aksai Chin in the negotiations held so far
But they want more

But DO YOU know that out of ALL the Border disputes that China had
They have REFUSED to sort out ONLY the dispute with India

For China ; What is so important about Tawang
Why cant they leave the poor Buddhists alone ; at least in Tawang

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
For a Minute forget about India China border dispute

Now come to China's support to Pakistan

Just recently they vetoed a resolution in UNSC; that too against a terrorist

Then you have their soldiers in P*K

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think it is high time we dropped this dream of Improving India China relations

If they want to be a BULLY so be it

We too can get the support of the BIGGEST Power in this world

@Abingdonboy

China has only one dream
To have UN CHALLENGED Asian supremacy

But that is NOT in India's interest and also NOT in the interest of other countries
such as Japan and Taiwan and Philipines

USA too will not accept it

If we have to choose between US supremacy and Chinese Supremacy ; let us choose USA

 

[Abingdonboy]

India has tried its level best to be friends with China
We have recognised Tibet's accession

We have given up Askai Chin in the negotiations so far
But they want more

But DO YOU know that out of ALL the Border disputes that China had
They have REFUSED to sort out ONLY the dispute with India

For China ; What is so important about Tawang
Why cant they leave the poor Buddhists alone ; at least in Tawang

Give it time, thse disputes are resolvable both sides just need to mature. Compare the LAC to LoC to for a real insight into how peaceful ties are with China.

For a Minute forget about India China border dispute

Now come to China's support to Pakistan

Just recently they vetoed a resolution in UNSC

Then you have their soldiers in P*K

The US has been Pakistan's greatest supporter for 60+ years, they have armed them, sheltered them (on the geopoltical stage) and enabled them. There is no point in making this argument because it applies 10 times more for the Americans and then some.

I think it is high time we dropped this dream of Improving India China relations

If they want to be a BULLY so be it

This is just the cycle China is at in their accesion, similar examples are quite well documented throughout history. Just because they are like this today does not mean they will always be like that, they are a very unique country and are in the process of change internally- give it time.

If you think the US doesn't bully India or wouldn't if India strayed too far from "their line" then you are deluding youself. Ask the Iranians or Iraqis what happens if you stand up to the US in a meaningful way.

We too can get the support of the BIGGEST Power in this world

And for how much longer will they be that? First China then India can overtake the US but if India joins "the club" and "contains China" then the West will turn their attention to India, their attention may be focused on China right now but soon enough it will be India who is facing the same kind of pressures and in that scenerio is it better that there is an ascended China and the world is multi-polar. Why the heck should India support the US's instance they have a God given right to rule over the rest of the world?

The US is a super predator- they attack any nation that presents a threat to them or their interests, they have demonstrated this again and again over the course of history, just because India is in their good books today is meaningless and it would be very short-sighted to join any efforts agaisnt China.

Rather, these two Asian giants should tackle their differences bilaterally for the betterment of both of their people.

@Chinese-Dragon @wanglaokan @nang2

China has only one dream
To have UN CHALLENGED Asian supremacy

And the US only has one dream- to have unchallenged GLOBAL supremacy.

But that is NOT in India's interest and also NOT in the interest of other countries
such as Japan and Taiwan and Philipines

All US poodles, lumping India in with them is rather embarassing really. India is not so pathetic so as to need to borrow power from someone else, it can stand up for its own interests- don't think otherwise.

 

[Stephen Cohen]

Give it time, thse disputes are resolvable both sides just need to mature. Compare the LAC to LoC to for a real insight into how peaceful ties are with China.



The US has been Pakistan's greatest supporter for 60+ years, they have armed them, sheltered them (on the geopoltical stage) and enabled them. There is no point in making this argument because it applies 10 times more for the Americans and then some.



This is just the cycle China is at in their accesion, similar examples are quite well documented throughout history. Just because they are like this today does not mean they will always be like that, they are a very unique country and are in the process of change internally- give it time.

If you think the US doesn't bully India or wouldn't if India strayed too far from "their line" then you are deluding youself. Ask the Iranians or Iraqis what happens if you stand up to the US in a meaningful way.


And for how much longer will they be that? First China then India can overtake the US but if India joins "the club" and "contains China" then the West will turn their attention to India, their attention may be focused on China right now but soon enough it will be India who is facing the same kind of pressures and in that scenerio is it better that there is an ascended China and the world is multi-polar. Why the heck should India support the US's instance they have a God given right to rule over the rest of the world?

The US is a super predator- they attack any nation that presents a threat to them or their interests, they have demonstrated this again and again over the course of history, just because India is in their good books today is meaningless and it would be very short-sighted to join any efforts agaisnt China.

Rather, these two Asian giants should tackle their differences bilaterally for the betterment of both of their people.

@Chinese-Dragon @wanglaokan @nang2


And the US only has one dream- to have unchallenged GLOBAL supremacy.


All US poodles, lumping India in with them is rather embarassing really. India is not so pathetic so as to need to borrow power from someone else, it can stand up for its own interests- don't think otherwise.

Give it time, thse disputes are resolvable both sides just need to mature. Compare the LAC to LoC to for a real insight into how peaceful ties are with China.



The US has been Pakistan's greatest supporter for 60+ years, they have armed them, sheltered them (on the geopoltical stage) and enabled them. There is no point in making this argument because it applies 10 times more for the Americans and then some.



This is just the cycle China is at in their accesion, similar examples are quite well documented throughout history. Just because they are like this today does not mean they will always be like that, they are a very unique country and are in the process of change internally- give it time.

If you think the US doesn't bully India or wouldn't if India strayed too far from "their line" then you are deluding youself. Ask the Iranians or Iraqis what happens if you stand up to the US in a meaningful way.


And for how much longer will they be that? First China then India can overtake the US but if India joins "the club" and "contains China" then the West will turn their attention to India, their attention may be focused on China right now but soon enough it will be India who is facing the same kind of pressures and in that scenerio is it better that there is an ascended China and the world is multi-polar. Why the heck should India support the US's instance they have a God given right to rule over the rest of the world?

The US is a super predator- they attack any nation that presents a threat to them or their interests, they have demonstrated this again and again over the course of history, just because India is in their good books today is meaningless and it would be very short-sighted to join any efforts agaisnt China.

Rather, these two Asian giants should tackle their differences bilaterally for the betterment of both of their people.

@Chinese-Dragon @wanglaokan @nang2


And the US only has one dream- to have unchallenged GLOBAL supremacy.


All US poodles, lumping India in with them is rather embarassing really. India is not so pathetic so as to need to borrow power from someone else, it can stand up for its own interests- don't think otherwise.

All this that you have written is just impractical

If we can get US support on Good and reasonable terms ; JUST GRAB IT with BOTH HANDS

We are done with China

We can keep Trading with them

But then even US and Japan have a HUGE trade with China

The Chinese support for Masood Azhar was the Proverbial last straw that
broke the camel's back

It has been very badly received in India

It is time to end the diffidence and indecisiveness and JUMP with BOTH feet