U.S.-India Deal Said to 'Increase Nuclear Danger'

[blain2]

Yeah a super show of dead bodies, the entire NLi was wiped off and was written off as non regulars.

NLI were non-regulars prior to Kargil war in case you did not know that. They were regularized as an Infantry regiment of the Pakistan Army in 2000.

 

[Neo]

Not another Kargil piss off contest!
Please stick to the topic.

Thanks!
Neo

 

[blain2]

I never said that Pakistan had an upper hand. All I'm saying, is that theoretically if Pakistan happened to have the upper hand, it would be for "greater stability" and if India has the upper hand, it will lead to "instability".

Thats pretty skewed thinking imo.

Its not a matter of skewed thinking. There are real issues incorporated with vast disparity for one side (the one with lesser capabilities), the rungs to nuclear escalation become lesser than for one with vast conventional capabilities backed up by a nuclear program that is being indirectly aided by various other countries.

 

[Marathaman]

Pakistan got bashed and then why was india shouthing so much and going to US to put pressure on pakistan to stop this? Anyhow arguing on this will leave us nowhere.
Pakistan having the upper hand u must be kidding me, When did pakistan had the upper hand and that it wanted to dominate the region unlike india? You guys take weapons from everywere and building a huge stockpile of weapons and when pakistan, 1st of all we are always probe to sactions if some how we get those old f-16s, india starts shouting kah pata nahi kon si qamayat ah gai ha.
Indias upper hand has always let the region into instability in the past coz india has problems with almost every naughbour of hers Pakistan, BD, China, Srilanka and in this so called threat she throws the reigion in an arms race and now after the deal there will be a new nuclear arms race in the region. God save us all

Godammit...I never said Pakistan had the upper hand. Read the posts properly before replying.

We all know about Pakistan's Kashmir obsession...don't give me that crap. If Pakistan gets the chance...she will invade Kashmir first thing.

Incase you haven't noticed...the Nuclear Deal is for building Nuclear Reactors, not Nuclear Bombs.How will the transfer of reactor technology lead to arms race?

The US will withdraw the moment India test nuclear weapons. The whole deal is centered about the understanding that India will use the tech for peaceful purposes.

 

[blitz]

Why should India justify itself anyways ? What is this childish game of finding faults ? India does whats in its interest, Pakistan does whats in its interest. You got a problem with the deal, go convince the Americans. If you can offer them something better than this deal, trust me they will cancel it in no time. If you cant, then stay quiet.

 

[IceCold]

I dnt wna make this post another flamebit, pakistan occuping kashmir while you r sitting ducks lol. This is just a misguided propaganda created in the minds of common indian ppl, if we didnt do this pakistan will gonna do that, if we didnt build weapons pakistan is gonna take kashmir away. ohh plzzz spare me the crap. We all know how peace full really is this nuclear deal and we know how did india manage to get the nuclear fuel for the 1st time and made agni frm engine given for space research. so cut the BS and stick to the post.

 

[blain2]

Godammit...I never said Pakistan had the upper hand. Read the posts properly before replying.

We all know about Pakistan's Kashmir obsession...don't give me that crap. If Pakistan gets the chance...she will invade Kashmir first thing.

Incase you haven't noticed...the Nuclear Deal is for building Nuclear Reactors, not Nuclear Bombs.How will the transfer of reactor technology lead to arms race?

The US will withdraw the moment India test nuclear weapons. The whole deal is centered about the understanding that India will use the tech for peaceful purposes.

No the US will stop the supply, however others in the NSG will not. This is the problem with this deal from a proliferation standpoint. If India tests (which it will as the new technology infusion will lead to design refinement), then US by law has to suspend the supply. However this suspension does not apply to others in the NSG. So the technology and materials will be siphoned off to the nuclear program so lets not play **** here.

 

[blain2]

Why should India justify itself anyways ? What is this childish game of finding faults ? India does whats in its interest, Pakistan does whats in its interest. You got a problem with the deal, go convince the Americans. If you can offer them something better than this deal, trust me they will cancel it in no time. If you cant, then stay quiet.

What's your problem with people posting their objections here? Yes we have a problem with it and we are voicing our opinions. Pakistanis and all those for Nuclear non-proliferation should voice their opinions about this deal. Its not like Indians don't voice their concerns about every darn thing happening in Pakistan.

Pakistan is already pursuing other options with China so I am not worried about Pakistani being left in the lurch (at leas as far as its own weapons program is concerned). What was covert will be more overt in terms of Pakistani-Chinese nuclear collaboration.

 

[Marathaman]

I dnt wna make this post another flamebit, pakistan occuping kashmir while you r sitting ducks lol. This is just a misguided propaganda created in the minds of common indian ppl, if we didnt do this pakistan will gonna do that, if we didnt build weapons pakistan is gonna take kashmir away. ohh plzzz spare me the crap. We all know how peace full really is this nuclear deal and we know how did india manage to get the nuclear fuel for the 1st time and made agni frm engine given for space research. so cut the BS and stick to the post.

Er..it isn't misguided propaganda. It actually happened. Pakistan DID occupy Kashmir while the Indian army was sleeping...incase you've forgotten.

As for the nuclear deal, I'm sure US intelligence is capable enough to know if India does divert tech to military scientists.

As far as Agni is concerned, its indegenous tech and India can do what it pleases with it.

 

[Bull]

No the US will stop the supply, however others in the NSG will not. This is the problem with this deal from a proliferation standpoint. If India tests (which it will as the new technology infusion will lead to design refinement), then US by law has to suspend the supply. However this suspension does not apply to others in the NSG. So the technology and materials will be siphoned off to the nuclear program so lets not play **** here.

They have created a loophole or a cushion there too if im not mistaken. by law till now US should have stopped further supply unilaterally but now it can ask for congress/senate approval before it does so. So it does provide India with a window.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Thats really funny. Last I remember, its the Pakistanis who infiltrated into Kashmir, got bashed, claimed that its "mujahideens" who were fighting.
Then onwards Musharraf has finally realized that war is futile,has been fighting domestic battles and pleasing Bush. Hence the peace.

I never said that Pakistan had an upper hand. All I'm saying, is that theoretically if Pakistan happened to have the upper hand, it would be for "greater stability" and if India has the upper hand, it will lead to "instability".

Thats pretty skewed thinking imo.

Well we still claim, as far as I know, that it was primarily the "Mujahideen" that infiltrated the area, with some support from paramilitary forces. You can analyze the same situation several different ways; the way I see it, Musharraf took over, there was political stability in Pakistan, the economy started growing, missile and other conventional military capabilities started growing, and there was relative "peace and stability" in the region.

As far as your "theory", don't project your own "skewed" line of thinking as that of Pakistanis. So far, you are the only one I have heard say such a thing, that if "Pakistan has the upper hand then instability is fine", but according to you, its a view we apparently hold. Whats your evidence to back up this view?

 

[Ababeel]

Yeah a super show of dead bodies, the entire NLi was wiped off and was written off as non regulars.

Yeah, Show of Indian dead bodies man!
NLI was wiped out!!!!!!!!!
What a joke. May be joke of the century. NLI was promoted to work as a full fledge regular army instead.

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

And what does the world believe about the facts of the kargil
conflict?

Facts about the 1999 India-Pakistan conflict in Kargil


FACT 1. Pakistan used 5,000 of its troops to infiltrate into various peaks in the Kargil sector. Some local "Mujahideen" were used, but only as porters. The NLI troops occupied a total of 132 posts.

”An Analysis of the Kargil Conflict 1999" by Brig. (Ret) Shaukat Qadir of Pakistan Army
http://www.ccc.nps.navy.mil/research/kargil/JA00199.pdf

It says; "They were occupying 132 posts of various sizes. Whereas the total number of troops occupying these posts never exceeded 1000 (from all ranks),four times this number provided the logistical backup to undertake the operation. While the occupants were essentially soldiers of the Northern Light Infantry (NLI),there were some local Mujahideen assisting as labour to carry logistical requirements."

"Pakistan: The Eye of the Storm", Owen Bennett Jones pp 91-92

Jones says; When they speak off the record, however Pakistani politicians and army officers tell a very different story, freely conceding that denials about Kargil were nothing more than barefaced lies. The Northern Light Infantry, they admit, did cross the line of control. The truth is that, just as in 1947 and 1965, Pakistan tried to fudge its offensive by saying it was carried out by volunteers and not regular troops. In reality, the Islamic militants probably accounted for no more than 10 per cent of the total force and were given only portering duties. Not all of them were from the NLI: some were commandos from the Special Services Group.

FACT 2. The PAF and PN were not consulted in the operation. The Pakistan Chief of Air Staff refused to support the Army after he was informed of this operation.

From Shaukat Qadir's analysis; "Soon thereafter ,the first formal briefing of the entire operation was made for the benefit of the prime minister in April,in the presence of the other services. Since the CNS was on a visit abroad, the navy’s reaction was voiced cautiously, but the CAS was openly critical and skeptical of the conclusion that India would not opt for an all-out war. He also voiced the view that in the event of war, the air force would not be able to provide the support that the army might seek."

FACT 3. After the initial setback, Indian Army gained many tactical victories fighting uphill despite the fact that the Pakistani NLI had dug in bunkers and were well stocked and armed.

From Shaukat Qadir's analysis; "Under cover of fire, elements of 2 Rajputana Rifles captured what the Indians called ‘Tololing top ’,(Point 45907),the most dominating height directly overlooking Dras,on 12 June. An adjacent post was captured on 13 June, and Tiger Hills (Point 5140), another dominating height, fell on 20 June. The army had continued to assert that no posts had fallen to the Indians,which reaffirms the contention that no effort was made to explain such a loss, or why it could not recur. However, in this case, it appears that Sharif found the Indian claims more credible than the Pakistan army’s denials."

"Limited Conflict Under the Nuclear Umbrella: Indian and Pakistani Lessons from the Kargil Crisis " by Ashley J. Tellis, C. Christine Fair, Jamison Jo Medby of RAND Corp"
http://www.rand.org/publications/MR/MR1450/

In the above publication, the authors, while discussing the various Pakistani views of the Kargil operation, write; "A second common variant is that Kargil was a tactical success but a strategic failure. This view was also articulated by a number of in-formants and has been reiterated in various articles. Shireen Mazari, for example, has written that “the military aspect of the Kargil action was simply brilliant.” Later in the same piece she laments that India was able to “turn a military defeat into a diplomatic victory . . . [and] that Pakistan was unable to translate a tremendous military success into a politico-diplomatic victory.” Interlocutors who held this view asserted—often against the weight of evidence—that the Pakistani Army’s operational performance at Kargil was flawless, and they in-variably concluded that the Army’s attainment of strategic surprise at Kargil was in effect synonymous with the achievement of victory in the campaign writ large. Since those who hold this view entirely neglect the fact that the Indian Army, once mobilized, redeployed, and committed to eviction operations, actually secured repeated tactical victories—often against great odds—throughout the concluding half of the Kargil campaign, they continue to claim that Kargil must be chalked up as an operational victory for the Pakistani Army even if it otherwise appears to be an unnecessary political defeat for Pakistan at large."

FACT 4. Pakistan Army endorsed the decision to pull back the troops after the operation failed.

”Pak army’s research and analysis is weak " - An article by Pakistan Defense analyst Dr. Ayesha Siddiqa Agha in "The Friday Times" March 29 - April 04, 2002.
http://www10.brinkster.com/anti007/Agha_Kargil.html

While examining the analysis by Brig. Qadir, Dr. Agha says; "There is no mention of the Indian forces hitting back after they had taken the initial beating. There is also no reference to the situation when the Pakistan Army had run out of manpower properly acclimatized to fight at such heights. Reports suggest that during the last week of the operation Pakistan had to pull out men deployed at Siachin, leaving positions there vulnerable to an Indian attack. Hence, it was in the Army’s interest to convince the prime minister to negotiate peace with the adversary. The study, however, puts the blame squarely on Nawaz Sharif who, it is claimed, had chickened out and gone to talk to the Americans and the Indians."

"Pakistan: The Eye of the Storm", Owen Bennett Jones

Jones says; "Most insiders say…that (Gen.Musharraf) was in full agreement with Shrif’s decision to go to Washington.”

FACT 5. Pakistan Army lost 2,700 men in Kargil, thereby suffering a more devastating blow than in the 1965 and 71 wars as all this happened in one small theatre of ops.

Vajpayee 'was ready to solve Kashmir'
http://www.gulfnews.com/Articles/News.asp?ArticleID=40792

"In his first ever interview since being deported from the country about 14 months ago, Nawaz lifted the curtain on the events that led to his downfall in October, 1999 in an interview to Urdu daily Jang where he made no secret that Kargil was a bigger disaster than 1965 and the 1971 wars because Pakistan lost over 2,700 soldiers. The entire Northern Light Infantry was wiped out. "When I reminded Musharraf of his claim that the operation will be risk-free, he replied that the Indians had resorted to carpet bombing, which looked rather naive to me," he said. "Didn't you know that this will happen?" Nawaz said he had asked his army chief. "Let me add here that Pakistanis fighting in Kashmir were without shelter, and some of the soldiers in the bunkers and outposts had been exposed to the extent that they lost their skulls by the dozens. The Indians were closing in on us when the Washington agreement was arrived at for an honourable pull back," he told the paper."
http://terrorism.freeservers.com/kargil.html

 

[Contrarian]

What's your problem with people posting their objections here? Yes we have a problem with it and we are voicing our opinions. Pakistanis and all those for Nuclear non-proliferation should voice their opinions about this deal. Its not like Indians don't voice their concerns about every darn thing happening in Pakistan.

I am sorry, were you confusing India with Pakistan? Im pretty darn sure, that it was not India supplying nuclear tech to Libya, North Korea or which ever else godforsaken country that Pakistan did. The one thing that most countries have been harping on CONSISTENTLY is that India is NOT like Pakistan. They have NOT proliferated nuke tech. That is one of the baseline arguments in favour of the deal.

So puh lease, i dont think any Pakistani has the right to even think about talking about proliferation concerns.

Pakistan is already pursuing other options with China so I am not worried about Pakistani being left in the lurch (at leas as far as its own weapons program is concerned). What was covert will be more overt in terms of Pakistani-Chinese nuclear collaboration.

Humour me blain. What makes you think that China can give Pakistan their 'nuclear deal'. What you just said comes simply from your heart and not mind. Its a tit for tat reaction. You are not 'worried' as Pakistan will get her deal from China. What is this? Do you know the limitations of what can be achived by China? What it can do diplomatically?

 

[Ababeel]

And what does the world believe?

Its the Zionist, Crusador and Brahmanical media making them believe in what they want as they rule the world. Overwhelming control over world media.