TYPE 214 SUB VS AMUR 1650 SUB A Layman's analysis

[illuminatidinesh]

lol ,but buddy as ur citing the example of eurofighter in relation to type 214 ,but the irony despite all that u said EF typhoon has made many foriegn exports while rafale which has been a combat proven platform had not made a single export customer .
But TYPE 216 is derived from type 214 & 212 & AMUR 1650 is not a combat proven as it has not been ordered by anycountry but project 677 lada has been built for russian navy only & AMUR 1650 is an export version of Project 677 lada class subs

The reason for selecting Rafale is the connection IAF had with the mirage. They proved their worth during the Kargil war. If IAF is comfortable with any aircraft is then it is Mirages and they are in no mood to retire them soon.(See the modernization package) The EF promises so many things but will it be able to deliver? Will it be sanctioned free? Hell U need to satisfy so many countries in case of trouble. I would say that is a good decision by IAF after all.( The French did not bag any order due to various political reason)
U say Amur is not battle proven... Is Type 212 proven? Considering The Russians use lada for their navy proves the importance of this sub..... The same way IAF familiarity with Mirage opted Rafale the IN will go for Amur considering the Kilo class. The most favorable sub in the IN inventory is Kilo class......

---------- Post added at 09:16 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:14 PM ----------

can we fit AMUR with french/German AIP? with Russian permission?

Money makes many things....

 

[sancho]

well actually type 214 was the german contender but INDIAN navy wanted to have vertical launching system as an important
criteria for project 75 I so germany decided to build type 216 with VLS capabilty

There is no reliable prove for that, esp since all reports from the begining talked clearly about U214. Also if VLS was a requirement, no current sub would fit the bill, because no sub offers AIP and VLS at the same time, not even the AMUR class. AIP is a requirement for sure, the Russians just offered Brahmos as a side advantage to counter the advantages of the European subs.
Another point is, that the U216 design might be able to carry VLS, but that doesn't automatically mean it can carry Brahmos, since the diameter of the hull must be much bigger than of the current U214. It can also be just vertical launched sub harpoons, or other smaller cruise missiles, which then don't need to be loaded in the Torpedo tubes anymore.
Too much speculation, too less reliable infos so far!

 

[indianspetsnaz]

the Type 216 or the S1000 class would be the best choice imo

 

[DrSomnath999]

Type-214 does not seem to be a very successful design..It has its own share of problems.. While AMUR also has some hurdles to overcome..

Well type 214 sub was an export sucess but i agree it has share of problems but majority of these problems have been solved
apart from few .
well regarding Amur it is an export version of Project 667 LADA ,which production has been cancelled for RUssian navy

U-216 is still a concept.. Very murky situation it is...

well i dont thing any thing murky here as german would try to correct many problems they had faced in type 214 & rectify it's mistakes in type 216 atleast

A stretched Scorpene with Indian AIP would be the cheapest solution but Navy people know best..

well i dont think india would gift another 10 billion dollar deal to french as they would nt want to keep all eggs in one basket as
Rafale & scorpene deal alltogether adds up to around 15-20 billion dollar deal .So may be another vendor most probably

 

[DrSomnath999]

can we fit AMUR with french/German AIP? with Russian permission?

why cant we ?? ofcourse it is a joint indo russian project ,

---------- Post added at 11:12 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:10 PM ----------

IN has already rejected MESMA.. German solution seems a better one. But i would give DRDO couple of years to come up with their own solution..Land based prototype is being tested..

but bro if we could take their help in building AIP technology as they have world 's cutting edge AIP technology

 

[DrSomnath999]

The reason for selecting Rafale is the connection IAF had with the mirage. They proved their worth during the Kargil war. If IAF is comfortable with any aircraft is then it is Mirages and they are in no mood to retire them soon.(See the modernization package) The EF promises so many things but will it be able to deliver? Will it be sanctioned free? Hell U need to satisfy so many countries in case of trouble. I would say that is a good decision by IAF after all.( The French did not bag any order due to various political reason)

well mate there are many other important reasons why india chosen rafale.most important RAFALE has many battle proven systems while EF2000 also had many advanced system but that was in paper only

U say Amur is not battle proven... Is Type 212 proven? Considering The Russians use lada for their navy proves the importance of this sub..... The same way IAF familiarity with Mirage opted Rafale the IN will go for Amur considering the Kilo class. The most favorable sub in the IN inventory is Kilo class......

well mate the problem is u have not check the resources properly ,AMUR is an export version of Project677 LADA & for ur kind
information RUSSIA has cancelled the production of lada class subs .
meanwhile German type 212 has been inducted & serially produced & is undoubtly one of the quietest submarine in the world
& this kind of questions is it battle proven has no significance ?
i mean would u want a submarine tender would test its weapons in realtime war before applying for SUBMARINE tender ,IS it
possible ? absolutely NO
thINK LOGICALLY
Kilo class also had problems like they had problems in KLUB cruise missiles .& BTW india also had operated german submarines

 

[DrSomnath999]

There is no reliable prove for that, esp since all reports from the begining talked clearly about U214.

yes type 214 is/was a contender u can take it both ways why???
ans as HDW has started development TYPE216 sub but for what 1st tell me
becoz of many extra features to woo it's potential customner like INDIA which type 214 cant give

Also if VLS was a requirement, no current sub would fit the bill, because no sub offers AIP and VLS at the same time, not even the AMUR class. AIP is a requirement for sure, the Russians just offered Brahmos as a side advantage to counter the advantages of the European subs.

well my friend ur information is wrong on this as AMUR 1650 sub doent has VLS capabilyt but AMUR 950 has vls capabilty &
provision for FItting of AIP system
see here i qoute from this webpage

The provision is made for the boat to be fitted with an air-independent propulsion plant with electrochemical generators to considerably increase submerged endurance and cruising range. The plant with stock of reagents is located in a special compartment module, which can be incorporated into the submarine during construction or repair / refit.

ЦКБ МТ Ð*убин: Amur 950

Another point is, that the U216 design might be able to carry VLS, but that doesn't automatically mean it can carry Brahmos, since the diameter of the hull must be much bigger than of the current U214. It can also be just vertical launched sub harpoons, or other smaller cruise missiles, which then don't need to be loaded in the Torpedo tubes anymore.
Too much speculation, too less reliable infos so far!

well that is not an herculean task they could build VLS specifically according to the diameter of brahmos missile as per request by indian navy
well speculation would always be there is any kind of big ticket defence deals whther it is MMRCA or Project 75 I ,but we have to think logically

 

[sancho]

yes type 214 is/was a contender u can take it both ways why???
ans as HDW has started development TYPE216 sub but for what 1st tell me
becoz of many extra features to woo it's potential customner like INDIA which type 214 cant give

Who said HDW has started a development? Germany and Italy are only procuring U212 and does not intend to buy additional subs. Turkey was the last export customer and that for U214 subs, the U216 is a study mainly based on the U214, but for sure not a development yet, since you need a customer to fund a development.

well my friend ur information is wrong on this as AMUR 1650 sub doent has VLS capabilyt but AMUR 950 has vls capabilty &
provision for FItting of AIP system
see here i qoute from this webpage

No I am not, the 950 has the "provision", but only when the VLS will be deleted, because both are in the same modul. You can see it in the graphics and also in the PDFs, where the 1650 has 15 days more endurance, because it has the additional AIP propulsion, while the 950 has not.
More over, to integrate both VLS and AIP you need more space, but the 950 is the smaller version of the AMUR class! Less size and displacement, so even if you think logically you should understand that this is not possible with the 950.

 

[Yeti]

Super-stealth sub powered by fuel cell - CNN

It is almost totally silent, radiates virtually no heat and is constructed entirely from non-magnetic metals.

Meet the U212A -- an ultra-advanced non-nuclear sub developed by German naval shipyard Howaldtswerke Deutsche Werft, who claim it to be "the peak of German submarine technology."

And few would argue. The super-stealth vessel is the first of its kind to be powered by a revolutionary hydrogen fuel cell that lets it cruise the deep blue without giving off noise or exhaust heat.

That's important, because according to Bernd Arjes, a captain in the German Navy, silence keeps submariners alive.




Super silent technology

 

[indianspetsnaz]

^ I want it now.

 

[DrSomnath999]

Who said HDW has started a development? Germany and Italy are only procuring U212 and does not intend to buy additional subs. Turkey was the last export customer and that for U214 subs, the U216 is a study mainly based on the U214, but for sure not a development yet, since you need a customer to fund a development.

i agree that they had nt started the devlopment as it is still in paper works but u should try to understand why they are starting
to build it & for whom they are building ,I agree they had nt signred any deal with any country regarding it ,but for specific
potential customers like india & australia .
Well we must understand the basic criteria for Project 75 I
1.AIP technology
2.capable of launching LACM/AsCM while submerged
these 2 are mandatory

well optional criteria includes
1.VLS
2.SOme size criteria i assume
but the problem is type 214 fulffills one criteria ie AIP technology & while 2nd mandatory criteria may not be compatible with
BRAHMOS

while AMUR 1650 fulfillls both the 2 mandatory criteria
SO if germany wants to clinch the deal so a new submarine with all the 2 major & optional criteria should be developed SO type 216 sub is their only solution.Meanwhile type 214 is tainted by his problems found in hellenic & south korean navy so it might not
win this deal .

No I am not, the 950 has the "provision", but only when the VLS will be deleted, because both are in the same modul. You can see it in the graphics and also in the PDFs, where the 1650 has 15 days more endurance, because it has the additional AIP propulsion, while the 950 has not.
More over, to integrate both VLS and AIP you need more space, but the 950 is the smaller version of the AMUR class! Less size and displacement, so even if you think logically you should understand that this is not possible with the 950.

well the fact is AMUR is an export model there hasnt been any production model yet well only 1 project 677 lada class was
produced for russian navy & hence afterwards it's production was scrapped .So Amur sub can be custom build according to
the requiremant of indian navy if they ordered it ,So u dont need to worry how they would integrate both the VLS & AIP in the
sub as they would definitely make structural changes if required & that is their designer's headache .

Well IMO ,they could increase the the length of the aft rear ward to create space for the fitting of AIP module .& rest only the
designers could answer

 

[sancho]

i agree that they had nt started the devlopment as it is still in paper works but u should try to understand why they are starting
to build it & for whom they are building ,I agree they had nt signred any deal with any country regarding it ,but for specific
potential customers like india & australia .
Well we must understand the basic criteria for Project 75 I
1.AIP technology
2.capable of launching LACM/AsCM while submerged
these 2 are mandatory

Which is a myth itself, because the land attack capability came up only when Russia offered Brahmos, but wasn't an issue ealier, although Club S missiles will be on offer with Amur class as well, just like Scorpene and U214 can use cruise missiles launched via torpedo tubes. The only know requirement was AIP and that's why all of the contenders were offered at least with the provision to add such a system, while none of them can use AIP and VLS at the same time.
And again, there is no U216 development, only studies from a manufacturer to offer "possible" export customers something new. A "development" only starts when there is somebody to fund it and that is not the case so far!

Well IMO ,they could increase the the length of the aft rear ward to create space for the fitting of AIP module .& rest only the
designers could answer

You are starting again to claim things that doesn't make sense, because it is a major problem to add an additional modul to the sub for AIP & VLS, which increases size and weight and still have a propulsion that offers enough performance.
Simple logic tells us, that if the Russians offer 2 different versions of the same sub, the reason must be, that they can't combine all advantages in 1! So please take the facts and not just your opinon to get to conclusions.

 

[DrSomnath999]

Which is a myth itself, because the land attack capability came up only when Russia offered Brahmos, but wasn't an issue ealier, although Club S missiles will be on offer with Amur class as well, just like Scorpene and U214 can use cruise missiles launched via torpedo tubes. The only know requirement was AIP and that's why all of the contenders were offered at least with the provision to add such a system, while none of them can use AIP and VLS at the same time.

who told u that LA capabilty came up only when russia offered brahmos as Klub s missiles also had land attack capabily so do
harpoon.
Only VLS requirement came up when russia offered brahmos with VLS capabilty on AMUR .&

while none of them can use AIP and VLS at the same time.

this is one of the main reason for german to think about TYPE 216 sub plan

And again, there is no U216 development, only studies from a manufacturer to offer "possible" export customers something new. A "development" only starts when there is somebody to fund it and that is not the case so far!

ok i agree but we have to wait a little too premature to answer now

You are starting again to claim things that doesn't make sense, because it is a major problem to add an additional modul to the sub for AIP & VLS, which increases size and weight and still have a propulsion that offers enough performance.Simple logic tells us, that if the Russians offer 2 different versions of the same sub, the reason must be, that they can't combine all advantages in 1!.

well i cant understand onething why had u assumed the russians cant built this 2 thing in a single sub Had russian said they cant built these 2 systems in a single sub ,if they had said it then tell me i wont debate on this issue .Well it is clearly written in the article that AMur 950
has provision for AIP module which can be fitted in the AMUR 950 sub during repair & refit,& no
where it is wriiten in the article that AIP & VLS cannott be fitted both in AMUR 950 sub .

So ur only assuming many things on ur own & on the top of it u ar accusing me of "You are starting again to claim things that doesn't make sense"
i simply dont know what to say

So please take the facts and not just your opinon to get to conclusions.

LOL .......,LOL & only LOL .

Well unfortunatley that is the only thing we can do in defence forum ie giving opinions as we cannot do any thing else .

 

[Nishan_101]

Although that was the wish of many Pakistanis that PN would have gone with the joint development with Germans in Type-212 and later to continue with type-214 for PN other than the Agosta-90Bs.
3 Agosta-90Bs
3 Type-212 till 2010
3-5 Type-214 till 2014
3-5 Type-216 till 2020

 

[DrSomnath999]

Although that was the wish of many Pakistanis that PN would have gone with the joint development with Germans in Type-212 and later to continue with type-214 for PN other than the Agosta-90Bs.
3 Agosta-90Bs
3 Type-212 till 2010
3-5 Type-214 till 2014
3-5 Type-216 till 2020

well wishes were left to wishes only sad ,but never mind Chinese qing class submarines would do the job for pak navy but
type 214 is after all type 214