TYPE 214 SUB VS AMUR 1650 SUB A Layman's analysis

[SamantK]

What if India want a VLS, then it definitely will be Amur. If 216 is available by then, it will be great. But when is India planning to buy these?

 

[illuminatidinesh]

Very biased analysis I must say...... The Russian Subs effective systems were not mentioned here..
acoustic field of the submarine has been considerably reduced (in comparison with submarines of previous generations - several times);
radio-electronic equipment of a new generation has been installed with a state-of-the-art element base;
an integrated system has been installed for automatic control of submarine and its combat and technical facilities;
an inertial navigation complex has been installed which provides safety of navigation and determination of motion parameters with specified missile armament accuracy during long underwater operation;
a variable-speed propulsion plant of a new design has been fitted;
a storage battery with increased service life has been installed..
New types of production and technological processes have been introduced in the course of construction, as follows:

a work bay has been equipped for production of non-penetrating retractable devices and hoist masts;
a testing bench has been produced for the above retractable devices and hoist masts;
a technology of installation of highly sensitive hydrophone antenna of sonar system "LIRA" has been developed and introduced;
a technology of application has been introduced for anti-sonar coating of a new generation "Molniya" ("Lightning");
a technology of painting with "VICOR" of improved stability has been introduced.

 

[illuminatidinesh]

The navy's experience with the kilo class sub will also be considered..... We have been operating those diesel subs for long time and we do have the advantage here. One must understand one thing here though we operate and use Russian hardware we dont necessarily follow their Naval doctrine.
Anyhow nice work by the Dr.....

---------- Post added at 09:20 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:17 PM ----------

What if India want a VLS, then it definitely will be Amur. If 216 is available by then, it will be great. But when is India planning to buy these?

No not based on VLS but based on the type of missile Amur could be selected I think...

 

[DrSomnath999]

Very biased analysis I must say......

well freedom of speech for u & u have right to express ur views , i wont mind that

The Russian Subs effective systems were not mentioned here..
acoustic field of the submarine has been considerably reduced (in comparison with submarines of previous generations - several times);
radio-electronic equipment of a new generation has been installed with a state-of-the-art element base;
an integrated system has been installed for automatic control of submarine and its combat and technical facilities;
an inertial navigation complex has been installed which provides safety of navigation and determination of motion parameters with specified missile armament accuracy during long underwater operation;
a variable-speed propulsion plant of a new design has been fitted;
a storage battery with increased service life has been installed..
New types of production and technological processes have been introduced in the course of construction, as follows:

a work bay has been equipped for production of non-penetrating retractable devices and hoist masts;
a testing bench has been produced for the above retractable devices and hoist masts;
a technology of installation of highly sensitive hydrophone antenna of sonar system "LIRA" has been developed and introduced;
a technology of application has been introduced for anti-sonar coating of a new generation "Molniya" ("Lightning");
a technology of painting with "VICOR" of improved stability has been introduced.

well i had mentioned all points about AMUR that u pointed out plz read the thread carefully before posting such things

& remember it's a comparision thread well now if i had said amur 1650 is good then TYPE 214/216 suppoters would have said the same thing a biased analysis ,now u should also analysis both subs in a fair way , i was also a big supporter of AMUR but when i
prepared this thread my perception changed .
YES Amur is a good sub but when u have a more advanced platform then why shouldnt we get like that of type 216 SUB

 

[DrSomnath999]

The navy's experience with the kilo class sub will also be considered..... We have been operating those diesel subs for long time and we do have the advantage here. One must understand one thing here though we operate and use Russian hardware we dont necessarily follow their Naval doctrine.

well same can also be said for german submarine as they were also operated by indian navy

Anyhow nice work by the Dr.....

thank u & also u have the right to criticize me so no hard feelings for u on my side

No not based on VLS but based on the type of missile Amur could be selected I think...

no VLS is an important criteria & brahmos can also be armed in type 216 sub as it is a joint indo russian project

 

[Raje amar]

good job Doc.com very well done and balanced analysis.
Give and take few points I find Amar more suitable for indian need.

Best part is launching of Brahmos and with VLS it will prove potent. 290 km range is very prudent indeed.

 

[DrSomnath999]

good job Doc.com very well done and balanced analysis.
Give and take few points I find Amar more suitable for indian need.

see if there is a competetion between AMUR & type 214 then i may have a 2nd thought about AMUR but when u have TYPE 216
sub then defintely u should go for a better platform as it fulffills all needs of indian navy .

Best part is launching of Brahmos and with VLS it will prove potent. 290 km range is very prudent indeed.

well TYPE 216 sub can also be armed with brahmos & it also has VLS capabilty

 

[The enlightened]

see if there is a competetion between AMUR & type 214 then i may have a 2nd thought about AMUR but when u have TYPE 216
sub then defintely u should go for a better platform as it fulffills all needs of indian navy .


well TYPE 216 sub can also be armed with brahmos & it also has VLS capabilty

I think it would be better if MoD scrapped this ultra-expensive project and went for SSN's.

 

[DrSomnath999]

I think it would be better if MoD scrapped this ultra-expensive project and went for SSN's.

well see with type 216 SUB u would have an AIP system which has same endurance days as of a nuclear submarine 80 days & SSK
are usually more silent in comparision to nuclear submarine in my opinion well SSN are also important but both have their different
role.

 

[illuminatidinesh]

well TYPE 216 sub can also be armed with brahmos & it also has VLS capabilty

Can be.... not yet confirmed. That is y i mentioned the missile being more important. About the VLS am not sure about it.

 

[illuminatidinesh]

well i had mentioned all points about AMUR that u pointed out plz read the thread carefully before posting such things

Ya but the thing is no one understands the importance of these points including me... The Russians always had their advantage and the west had its own... It all comes to the mind set and of course the experience they gained . The thing I noticed in the comparison is Amur capabilities are not explained enough.... example... "a technology of painting with "VICOR" of improved stability has been introduced" What does this mean? How does that help this sub?
Again " a technology of application has been introduced for anti-sonar coating of a new generation "Molniya" ("Lightning");" Is this thing going to help in Quite sub? No? Is it better than the German one? Nobody knows but still we all lobby for the German one Y?

 

[DrSomnath999]

Can be.... not yet confirmed. That is y i mentioned the missile being more important. About the VLS am not sure about it.

well see TYPE 216 is specifically built to have VLS capabilty & brahmos is indian russian joint project & Brahmos chief had earliear
said we dont have a platform to test SUB launched brahmos so india could also install such kind of systems in SUB which have VLS
or tube launched missile capabilty

 

[DrSomnath999]

Ya but the thing is no one understands the importance of these points including me... The Russians always had their advantage and the west had its own... It all comes to the mind set and of course the experience they gained . The thing I noticed in the comparison is Amur capabilities are not explained enough.... example... "a technology of painting with "VICOR" of improved stability has been introduced" What does this mean? How does that help this sub?

well that VICOR part is itself confusing for me to understand so thats why i didnt mention it ,I think russian Member PDlmtd3
would help us

Again " a technology of application has been introduced for anti-sonar coating of a new generation "Molniya" ("Lightning");" Is this thing going to help in Quite sub? No? Is it better than the German one? Nobody knows but still we all lobby for the German one Y?

yes i had mentioned clearly that russian anti sonar coating is much better than german 214 but overall aspect of steaslth u
should see which GERMANS have the edge

TYPE 214 SUBMARINE

• A hull shape, which has been further optimised for hydrodynamic and stealth characteristics, and a low-noise propeller combine to decrease the submarine's acoustic signature.Thus, the hull design and its hydrodynamic form emphasise stealth capabilities, offering good low signature features including both self-generated noise and flow noise and magnetic signature.

U212 / U214 - Naval Technology
Hellenic U214 pics (Greek Turkish Affairs Forum)


• The propelling power is provided by a seven-blade Skew-Back propeller whose extremely low rotation speed prevents cavity and which gener*ates thrust silently even at high speeds.

• SPHINX Radar System is a FMCW transceiver which can't be detected by ESM systems in medium terms. This technology is so called LPI radar, which means "Low probability of intercept". The transmitting power is lower than the power of a mobile phone but the resolution more precise compared to high power Pulse radar. Thales SPHINX radar is a tactical radar, designed for submarines.


• A submarine that uses fuel cells rather than a diesel engine to recharge its batteries produces much less sound while doing and consequently the effective detection range of many of the current passive acoustic sonobuoys is reduced.
Using the Siemens PEM fuel cells enabled AIP system the Type 214 sub on submerged patrol and intercept missions enables the boat to remain submerged for up to 13 days at a speed of 4 kt. Submerged sprint speeds of between 16 and 20+ kt are possible for periods of a few hours several times during a 50 day mission. At a speed of 6 kt the mission range is almost 12,000 n miles. Endurance will be 84 days.The fuel cell works at an operating temperature of 70 to 80ºC, which makes the submarine difficult to detect using external heat sensors.

so both sub are designed specifically bearing in stealth in mind ,while AMUR 1650 SUB has better suface coating & materials
while TYPE 214 SUB has better AIP & LPI sphinx radar along with stealthy hull cross section & shaping which gives Type 214
a edge over amur 1650 in terms of stealth .

 

[Ammyy]

Which one is offered in Project 75I ?? 214 or 216

 

[sancho]

Which one is offered in Project 75I ?? 214 or 216

It is reported that the contenders are the U214, Amur and Scorpene class mainly. The S80 and S1000 were speculated sometimes too, but the earlier 3 will have the biggest chances.