Two Opposing Terms: Islamic and Republic

[M. Sarmad]

If you want a YES / NO ... get out of the forum and breathe REAL AIR...it will tell you there is no YES / NO clear cut situations in REAL life! Kindly come out of your fantasy!

So at last you admit .....

If you cant then SCOOT! Why go low?
@WebMaster @Aeronaut @nuclearpak
kindly take note of someone in capable of going in a debate and literally forcing people to go along with his whims...

Relax Ms .. look at all your posts .. You have said a lot and all I said in response was that I cant argue with an idiot and you got so "offended" ...

And I am not forcing any one , Its you who is ...
I have said what I had to , so have you ... every one can see and decide for himself
peace

 

[Dubious]

So at last you admit .....

I never denied to start with so not sure what you are rejoicing about

Relax Ms .. look at all your posts .. You have said a lot and all I said in response was that I cant argue with an idiot and you got so "offended" ...

How about from my standards I call you stupid?

And I am not forcing any one , Its you who is ...
I have said what I had to , so have you ... every one can see and decide for himself
peace

I never forced..Had I forced I would have beaten it into you with abuses and disrespect!

Yes indeed you have said what you have to with a bonus calling others stupid when you have appeared as one to the other half of the people!

 

[SarthakGanguly]

Ok those bold words are not mentioned...NO WHERE in the Quran does it say a son of a slave is a slave! Nowhere does one's dignity is maligned....It says the highest in ALLAH's sight is the just...No where did it say caste, creed or colour! Why overlook this verse and the tens of others:

O mankind, indeed We have created you from male and female and made you peoples and tribes that you may know one another. Indeed, the most noble of you in the sight of Allah is the most righteous of you. Indeed, Allah is Knowing and Acquainted. [QURAN 49:13]

Indeed, Allah commands you to render trusts to whom they are due and when you judge between people to judge with justice. Excellent is that which Allah instructs you. Indeed, Allah is ever Hearing and Seeing. [Quran 4:58]

Where does it say that judge or favour so and so??
Wow! Is that what you got? Which Mullah thought you? Quran shows that some people DO HAVE MORE....I think I answered this before.... Read this it might help you open your eyes:
Human rights and justice in Islam | Inquirer News



Oh GOD FORBID the slave girl be married or the orphan be given such treatment....What is wrong with marrying someone? Were you disappointed it didnt say make them your concubines?

It ALLOWS 4 better than men keeping MISTRESSES in thousands and NOT GIVING THEM RIGHTS (which I think even UN doesnt cover) ...2ndly it didnt say the no. of concubines or female slaves is unlimited...Bring such a verse ...Kindly do not add your horrible thinking...

I answered so will skip it

So is your wife a sumo wrestler or a heavy weight champion? seriously it is SIMPLE biology men and women differ physically, Physiologically and also at emotional and hormonal level.... Exactly what were you trying here?

Already answered
I can answer each easily but I have noticed you dont even read my posts properly and also I can give a list of AYATS where ALLAH COMMANDS....not even WARNS commands us to treat other human beings with justice...It is repeated all over the Quran....
As for these AYATS they are about how ALLAH will deal with those who dont even believe in HIM...Not sure why they should worry in the 1st place when they dont even believe in HIM...

If everyone should be equal 1 can argue that the one in the prison or even the one on parole is also not equal to the "free man"


Dont get personal! If you cant answer leave Mr. Troll!

Secondly, not everything in life is a yes and a no...THAT is your problem and hence your blaming Islam...

Even UN has loop holes how the hell are sooo many crooked people on the top all over the world?

If you want a YES / NO ... get out of the forum and breathe REAL AIR...it will tell you there is no YES / NO clear cut situations in REAL life! Kindly come out of your fantasy!

WHY THE HELL do you think debates take place if everyone only wanted to hear a YES or a NO and walk out?

If you cant then SCOOT! Why go low?

@WebMaster @Aeronaut @nuclearpak
kindly take note of someone in capable of going in a debate and literally forcing people to go along with his whims...


Thank you for your opinion...But have you read or even understood anything? If no then either ask questions or just walk away....What do you not find convincing? I am not here to convince but to give my view point and that is it...Read other people's view point but never judge...Why judge unless you really are some Aalim!

"As for these AYATS they are about how ALLAH will deal with those who dont believe in HIM...Not sure why they should worry in the 1st place when they dont even believe in HIM..." - That says it all. Disbelievers could care less if believers would have let them be.

Relax man, mine is as much a point of view as yours. No more and no less. And trust me - I am no judge. (Truth is Supreme)'Satya Sarva Sresth' - I am too puny for that.

The points discussed above are valid and very difficult to refute(IMO). I have also read the Quran(Pickthall translation). In case you want a debate on ayats, I suggest let us stick to 3 of the most 'understood/misunderstood' ones and discuss. Otherwise we will drown.

 

[Dubious]

"As for these AYATS they are about how ALLAH will deal with those who dont believe in HIM...Not sure why they should worry in the 1st place when they dont even believe in HIM..." - That says it all. Disbelievers could care less if believers would have let them be.

Well, that is for them...and believers do let them be by calling them kafir ....which unfortunately became a slurr for an insult when in normal Arabic just means one who rejects....

Relax man, mine is as much a point of view as yours. No more and no less. And trust me - I am no judge. (Truth is Supreme)'Satya Sarva Sresth' - I am too puny for that.

Believe me I am relaxed but I my style of writing is asserting a point even in a relaxed position it is to make sure people know I am not a joke plus I am too used to writing articles that it has become a habit to write this way...

The points discussed above are valid and very difficult to refute(IMO). I have also read the Quran(Pickthall translation). In case you want a debate on ayats, I suggest let us stick to 3 of the most 'understood/misunderstood' ones and discuss. Otherwise we will drown.

Ok bring back the 3 you want to discuss my mind is divided in a few threads at the moment....

 

[M. Sarmad]

@Talon
Why are you quoting posts with my name which are not mine ?

 

[Dubious]

@Talon
Why are you quoting posts with my name which are not mine ?

Sorry my bad...fixed it!

 

[SarthakGanguly]

Well, that is for them...and believers do let them be by calling them kafir ....which unfortunately became a slurr for an insult when in normal Arabic just means one who rejects....
Believe me I am relaxed but I my style of writing is asserting a point even in a relaxed position it is to make sure people know I am not a joke plus I am too used to writing articles that it has become a habit to write this way...



Ok bring back the 3 you want to discuss my mind is divided in a few threads at the moment....

I would very much like @Azlan Haider choose 3 ayats to discuss. My knowledge is purely theoretical. He will most likely be better to begin. I will put my points where I feel I have a doubt or something

 

[Dubious]

I would very much like @Azlan Haider choose 3 ayats to discuss. My knowledge is purely theoretical. He will most likely be better to begin. I will put my points where I feel I have a doubt or something

That is fine...But also remember most of the Ayats in the Quran are interconnected and if you pick one out of context you can either become a MULLAH or a liar or even both

 

[SarthakGanguly]

That is fine...But also remember most of the Ayats in the Quran are interconnected and if you pick one out of context you can either become a MULLAH or a liar or even both

A non Muslim Mullah - that would be a first

 

[Dubious]

Plus I know many people telling me they read the Quran yet they still find it interesting when the same AYAATS are represented to them ....

I have read the Quran in Arabic, Urdu (not much as my understanding of the language is poor) and also in English....By knowing it in more than 1 language I can get understand better of the meaning since Arabic isnt my mother tongue ...

A non Muslim Mullah - that would be a first

I use the word MULLAH for EXTREMISTS...not just Muslims but those who are on the other end of the spectrum!

 

[M. Sarmad]

I would very much like @Azlan Haider choose 3 ayats to discuss. My knowledge is purely theoretical. He will most likely be better to begin. I will put my points where I feel I have a doubt or something

As this is about UN human right declaration and Islam ,

1) Are men and women equal in Islam :


4:34
الرِّجَالُ قَوَّامُونَ عَلَى النِّسَاءِ بِمَا فَضَّلَ اللَّهُ بَعْضَهُمْ عَلَىٰ بَعْضٍ وَبِمَا أَنفَقُوا مِنْ أَمْوَالِهِمْ ۚ فَالصَّالِحَاتُ قَانِتَاتٌ حَافِظَاتٌ لِّلْغَيْبِ بِمَا حَفِظَ اللَّهُ ۚ وَاللَّاتِي تَخَافُونَ نُشُوزَهُنَّ فَعِظُوهُنَّ وَاهْجُرُوهُنَّ فِي الْمَضَاجِعِ وَاضْرِبُوهُنَّ ۖ فَإِنْ أَطَعْنَكُمْ فَلَا تَبْغُوا عَلَيْهِنَّ سَبِيلًا ۗ إِنَّ اللَّهَ كَانَ عَلِيًّا كَبِيرًا


Sahih International
Men are in charge of women by [right of] what Allah has given one over the other and what they spend [for maintenance] from their wealth. So righteous women are devoutly obedient, guarding in [the husband's] absence what Allah would have them guard. But those [wives] from whom you fear arrogance - [first] advise them; [then if they persist], forsake them in bed; and [finally], strike them. But if they obey you [once more], seek no means against them. Indeed, Allah is ever Exalted and Grand.



4:11
Sahih International

Allah instructs you concerning your children: for the male, what is equal to the share of two females. But if there are [only] daughters, two or more, for them is two thirds of one's estate. And if there is only one, for her is half. And for one's parents, to each one of them is a sixth of his estate if he left children. But if he had no children and the parents [alone] inherit from him, then for his mother is one third. And if he had brothers [or sisters], for his mother is a sixth, after any bequest he [may have] made or debt. Your parents or your children - you know not which of them are nearest to you in benefit. [These shares are] an obligation [imposed] by Allah . Indeed, Allah is ever Knowing and Wise.



2:282
Sahih International
O you who have believed, when you contract a debt for a specified term, write it down. And let a scribe write [it] between you in justice. Let no scribe refuse to write as Allah has taught him. So let him write and let the one who has the obligation dictate. And let him fear Allah , his Lord, and not leave anything out of it. But if the one who has the obligation is of limited understanding or weak or unable to dictate himself, then let his guardian dictate in justice. And bring to witness two witnesses from among your men. And if there are not two men [available], then a man and two women from those whom you accept as witnesses - so that if one of the women errs, then the other can remind her. And let not the witnesses refuse when they are called upon. And do not be [too] weary to write it, whether it is small or large, for its [specified] term. That is more just in the sight of Allah and stronger as evidence and more likely to prevent doubt between you, except when it is an immediate transaction which you conduct among yourselves. For [then] there is no blame upon you if you do not write it. And take witnesses when you conclude a contract. Let no scribe be harmed or any witness. For if you do so, indeed, it is [grave] disobedience in you. And fear Allah . And Allah teaches you. And Allah is Knowing of all things.

 

[Dubious]

As this is about UN human right declaration and Islam ,

1) Are men and women equal in Islam :


4:34
الرِّجَالُ قَوَّامُونَ عَلَى النِّسَاءِ بِمَا فَضَّلَ اللَّهُ بَعْضَهُمْ عَلَىٰ بَعْضٍ وَبِمَا أَنفَقُوا مِنْ أَمْوَالِهِمْ ۚ فَالصَّالِحَاتُ قَانِتَاتٌ حَافِظَاتٌ لِّلْغَيْبِ بِمَا حَفِظَ اللَّهُ ۚ وَاللَّاتِي تَخَافُونَ نُشُوزَهُنَّ فَعِظُوهُنَّ وَاهْجُرُوهُنَّ فِي الْمَضَاجِعِ وَاضْرِبُوهُنَّ ۖ فَإِنْ أَطَعْنَكُمْ فَلَا تَبْغُوا عَلَيْهِنَّ سَبِيلًا ۗ إِنَّ اللَّهَ كَانَ عَلِيًّا كَبِيرًا


Sahih International
Men are in charge of women by [right of] what Allah has given one over the other and what they spend [for maintenance] from their wealth. So righteous women are devoutly obedient, guarding in [the husband's] absence what Allah would have them guard. But those [wives] from whom you fear arrogance - [first] advise them; [then if they persist], forsake them in bed; and [finally], strike them. But if they obey you [once more], seek no means against them. Indeed, Allah is ever Exalted and Grand.

In what sense are you weighting the equality notion?
I have answered this but I guess like Fauji you didnt read my post... because you prefer rending something you dont agree with as stupid then to read it and try to understand...

4:11
Sahih International

Allah instructs you concerning your children: for the male, what is equal to the share of two females. But if there are [only] daughters, two or more, for them is two thirds of one's estate. And if there is only one, for her is half. And for one's parents, to each one of them is a sixth of his estate if he left children. But if he had no children and the parents [alone] inherit from him, then for his mother is one third. And if he had brothers [or sisters], for his mother is a sixth, after any bequest he [may have] made or debt. Your parents or your children - you know not which of them are nearest to you in benefit. [These shares are] an obligation [imposed] by Allah . Indeed, Allah is ever Knowing and Wise.

I also answered this bit...

2:282
Sahih International
O you who have believed, when you contract a debt for a specified term, write it down. And let a scribe write [it] between you in justice. Let no scribe refuse to write as Allah has taught him. So let him write and let the one who has the obligation dictate. And let him fear Allah , his Lord, and not leave anything out of it. But if the one who has the obligation is of limited understanding or weak or unable to dictate himself, then let his guardian dictate in justice. And bring to witness two witnesses from among your men. And if there are not two men [available], then a man and two women from those whom you accept as witnesses - so that if one of the women errs, then the other can remind her. And let not the witnesses refuse when they are called upon. And do not be [too] weary to write it, whether it is small or large, for its [specified] term. That is more just in the sight of Allah and stronger as evidence and more likely to prevent doubt between you, except when it is an immediate transaction which you conduct among yourselves. For [then] there is no blame upon you if you do not write it. And take witnesses when you conclude a contract. Let no scribe be harmed or any witness. For if you do so, indeed, it is [grave] disobedience in you. And fear Allah . And Allah teaches you. And Allah is Knowing of all things.

I also answered this one...Apparently you dont read any of my post!

@Azlan Haider read @Panther 57 post 217 it is clearer than what I have written...

 

[M. Sarmad]

In what sense are you weighting the equality notion?

Article 2: Everyone is entitled to all rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status.

equality without distinction of any kind

Now read the above verses and tell me is there no "distinction based on sex" in quran ?

Also Article 16 deals with right of marriage for men and women ..
In Islam , do men and women enjoy same marriage rights ?

 

[Dubious]

Article 2: Everyone is entitled to all rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status.

How far has this been imposed? Ad how far is it even realistic? Just coz it says so doesnt mean it is capable of implementing... Now let me ask you what do they REALLY mean by this?

equality without distinction of any kind

Now tell me is there no distinction based on sex in quran ?

I told you the distinction is based on physical strength, physiology, psychology and many other ESTABLISHED STUDIES...can you give me an example of a right which Islam doesnt equate OUTSIDE PHYSICAL STRENGTH....

Mind you UN ALSO has problems in dealing with cases because of their laws....WITHOUT DISTINCTION has caused MANY women to marry rich men and suck all the money from them....it is a fact many WELL OFF (not filthy rich people) who have asked a divorce have ended up living in a trailer houses or even worse....

I explained the financial thing where the man is incharge so has to look after his mother, wife and unmarried sisters while married sisters also get contribution from their husband and hence he gets a larger share...however, if a will is set then this division doesnt need to be practiced...

Also Article 16 deals with right of marriage for men and women ..
In Islam , do men and women enjoy same marriage rights ?

The important part is without a woman's say no one can get her married off! THAT is which is counted the most

 

[M. Sarmad]

@Talon
I agree with you that Islam gives maximum rights to women
But here we are talking about "equal rights" with men , which Islam does not grant to women
UN Declaration of Human Rights asks for EQUAL rights for men & women in all aspects
So it contradicts with Islamic laws

One can rightfully argue that Islamic laws are better than UN laws , But that is not the point of discussion here ...
Hope you understand