Two Opposing Terms: Islamic and Republic

[RangerPK]

Ok bro ....I cant argue with you any more ..
I gave you the UN official pov in the above post and you say that it is silly , ...

If you believe that your definitions and understanding is better than the understanding of intellectuals of the whole world combined (i.e UN) , then I rest my case
Peace

Democracy and Secularism are two different unrelated things. This is academics. If someone is not aware of 101 basics of "political science".What these concepts are and how they relate to each other, then I doubt one would be able to grasp what the intellectuals at UN are saying.

 

[ssethii]

I see.

But so are the stories of St. Nick.

Little children believe he comes down from the North and leaves little presents for them.

But children grow up

and tell the story to their kids

But the grown ups know these are just stories.

Grown up do not try to convince other grown ups that Santa is real.

Why

Such stories are meant for kids, actually toddlers.


I hope you understand it now.

And quit convincing other grown ups about your stories.


Thank you.

Arguing with you is just like

 

[RangerPK]

Arguing with you is just like

Its like children who do not even know what ABC is, telling you what is written on the news paper..

Thus the trolling...

 

[Dubious]

@qamar1990

Okay .. Lets discuss the articles of universal human rights declaration of 1948 , one by one and see wether they are in contradiction with Islamic law and doctrine or not ,,,

Article 1: All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.

Article 2: Everyone is entitled to all rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status.

Article 3: Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person.

Article 4: No one shall be held in slavery or servitude; slavery and the slave trade shall be prohibited in all their forms.

In Islam , neither all human beings are born free , nor all human beings are equal in dignity and rights ..
Free Men are superior to Slaves , Men and Women have unequal rights , Muslims & non Muslims have unequal rights and dignity .. And then certain muslims are superior to other muslims in terms of respect and dignity .....

Allah says in Quran :

Allah has bestowed His gifts of sustenance more freely on some of you than on others: those more favoured are not going to throw back their gifts to those whom their right hands possess(slaves), so as to be equal with them in respect thereof . Will they then deny the favours of Allah? [16:71]

Why quote out of context? Seriously what was that ayat about?

[Quran 16:71] And Allah has favored some of you over others in provision. But those who were favored would not hand over their provision to those whom their right hands possess so they would be equal to them therein. Then is it the favor of Allah they reject?

Surah An-Nahl 16:71-76 -
Towards Understanding the Quran - Quran Translation Commentary - Tafheem ul Quran

take note:
On the contrary, when the verse is considered in its context, it becomes quite obvious that it is no more than the statement of a fact to prove the same theme that is contained in this passage. It argues like this: When you yourselves do not make your servants and slaves equal partners in your wealth, which in fact is given to you by Allah, how is it that you join other gods with God in your gratitude to Him for the favors with which He has blessed you. You know that these gods have no powers to bestow anything on anyone, and, therefore, have no right in your worship of Allah, for they are after all His slaves and servants.

This interpretation of the verse under discussion is corroborated by (Surah Ar-Room, Ayat 28): “Allah sets forth to you an instance from your own selves. Do your slaves share with you the wealth We have bestowed on you so that you and they become equals in this? And do you fear them as you fear one another? Thus We make clear Our signs to those who use their common sense.” A comparison of the two verses makes it quite clear that these have been cited to bring home to the mushriks that they themselves do not associate their slaves with themselves in their wealth and status, but they have the impudence and folly to set up His own creature as partner with God. It appears that the erroneous interpretation has been strengthened by the succeeding sentence: What! do they then deny to acknowledge Allah’s favor?

So saying this crap is not justified at all:

So Quran recognises this unequality as divinely established order of things and being a "free man" is Allah`s grace on someone according to Quran

29 verses of Quran mention Slavery , According to Quran , its lawful to enslave non muslim men & women . There is no limit to how many slaves a muslim can own , A slave is property of his master and quran allows a man to have Intercourse with all his female slaves (concubines) , even without their consent . A child born to a concubine is a "born slave" with limited rights ..

we can easily refute this...

The meaning of a slave is a person who has no say, has no value and is a property....Now once Islam gives rights to a slave, where you are responsible for his/her health, his/her well being and many more things...the word slave can be removed as it no longer is in context with slavery!
this website explains it a little better: The Wisdom Fund - Slavery in Islam

Allah says in quran :

And if you fear that you will not deal justly with the orphan girls, then marry those that please you of [other] women, two or three or four. But if you fear that you will not be just, then [marry only] one or those your right hand possesses. That is more suitable that you may not incline [to injustice].(4:3)

In this verse , Allah has allowed a muslim man to marry upto 4 muslim women at a time and the number of concubines/female slaves (those your right hand possess) is not restricted ....
A woman cant marry two men at the same time , neither is she allowed to have intercourse with the male slaves she may possess

How did you misinterpret the part in red? MARRY ONE OR not marry one AND! And towards the end the MORE SUITABLE point is highlighted! Please read the whole verse before concluding or writing essays!

A Muslim man can marry a non muslim (follower of book) woman , but a Muslim woman cant marry a non muslim man
[Also in law of Pakistan , If a male citizen marries a foreigner woman , she is entitled to Pakistan nationality , but if a female Pakistani citizen marries a foreigner man , he does not get any such previliges]

May I as where did you get the one in red for sure not from the Quran:

Do not marry unbelieving women until they believe. A slave woman who believes is better than an unbelieving woman, even though if she attracts you. And not marry (your girls) to unbelievers until they believe. A man slave who believes is better than an unbeliever, even though if he attracts you. Unbelievers do (but) beckon you to the fire but Allah beckons by His grace to the garden (of bliss) and forgiveness, and makes His signs clear to mankind; that they may receive admonition. (al-Baqarah, 221).

(Lawful unto you in marriage are chaste women who are believers and chaste women among the people of the book. (al-Ma'idah, 5).

As for law of Pakistan...is law of Pakistan not law of Islam!

A Muslim Man can marry a woman because

A permission from family of a woman is mandatory for marrying her (In most of the fiqhas)

Well, a woman is a princess it is nice if she has a wali with her...even in a Christian marriage the father gives away his daughter....I dont see how this is in any case even significant to be taken into account...Every parent wants to be there for the marriage or be involved how is this degrading or coming against UN human rights thing?

In quran Allah says:

Allah instructs you concerning your children: for the male, what is equal to the share of two females(4:11)

The share of a male is twice the share of a female in islam (hence unequal)

Have you asked why? Coz for the woman, it is the DUTY of the man to provide...even in the West if the man there is a saying REAL MEN WORK AND LOOK AFTER THEIR WOMEN...so again how is this attacking anything from human rights point of view?

Hence, if the guy has his mother, unwed sisters and wife to look after while the sister has her husband while the other unwed sister is being looked after by the guy, who would require more?

Allah says in quran :

Men are in charge of women by [right of] what Allah has given one over the other and what they spend [for maintenance] from their wealth. So righteous women are devoutly obedient, guarding in [the husband's] absence what Allah would have them guard. But those [wives] from whom you fear arrogance - [first] advise them; [then if they persist], forsake them in bed; and [finally], strike them. But if they obey you [once more], seek no means against them. Indeed, Allah is ever Exalted and Grand.(4:34)

So men are superior to women in Islam and this verse also clearly defines that it is the duty of males to earn livelihood and not womens`.

So you plan to be a bum and live off the wifey? When I say this why would you feel offended? If you are saying this is against HUMAN RIGHTS OF UN...then apparently you want the opposite, right? If not then how is this relevant? Plus the word superior is never used in the Quran...so please dont add your own words ..thank you!

Men are even allowed to physically beat their wives for wrong doings

STRIKE is a harsh word esp when you use a miswak to hit and NOT leave any impressions...and besides THAT IS THE LAST STANCE!

It is important to read the section fully. One should not take part of the verse and use it to justify one's own misconduct. This verse neither permits violence nor condones it. It guides us to ways to handle delicate family situation with care and wisdom. The word "beating" is used in the verse, but it does not mean "physical abuse". The Prophet (p.b.u.h.) explained it "dharban ghayra mubarrih" which means "a light tap that leaves no mark". He further said that face must be avoided. Some other scholars are of the view that it is no more than a light touch by siwak, or toothbrush.

Generally, the Prophet (p.b.u.h.) used to discourage his followers from taking even this measure. He never hit any female, and he used to say that the best of men are those who do not hit their wives. In one Hadith he expressed his extreme repulsion from this behavior and said, "How does anyone of you beat his wife as he beats the stallion camel and then embrace (sleep with) her?” (Al-Bukhari, English Translation, vol. 8, Hadith 68, pp. 42-43)

It is also important to note that even this "light strike" mentioned in the verse is not to be used to correct some minor problem, but it is permissible to resort to only in a situation of some serious moral misconduct when admonishing the wife fails, and avoiding from sleeping with her would not help. If this disciplinary action can correct a situation and save the marriage, then one should use it."

I see you have analyzed it:

"According to Quran the relationship between the husband and wife should be based on mutual love and kindness. Allah says: "And among His Signs is this, that He created for you mates from among yourselves, that ye may dwell in tranquility with them, and He has put love and mercy between your (hearts): verily in that are Signs for those who reflect." (Quran: Ar-Rum 21)

The Holy Quran urges husbands to treat their wives with kindness. (In the event of a family dispute, Quran exhorts the husband to treat his wife kindly and not to overlook her positive aspects). Allah Almighty says: “Live with them on a footing of kindness and equity. If ye take a dislike to them it may be that ye dislike a thing, and Allah brings about through it a great deal of good.” (Quran: An-Nisaa 19)

Ibn Katheer (may Allaah have mercy on him) said in his Tafseer (1/363): “The phrase ‘but men have a degree (of responsibility) over them’ in this verse means that they are superior in physical nature, attitude, status, obedience to the commands of Allaah, spending, taking care of interests, and virtue, in this world and in the Hereafter

I dont know why you want to hear out Ibn Katheer when all you need is the meanings of the words and then use your brain as to what it means...nowhere is the word superior used...stronger yes, it is not a lie MEN ARE STRONGER....

Allah says in Quran :

And bring to witness two witnesses from among your men. And if there are not two men [available], then a man and two women from those whom you accept as witnesses - so that if one of the women errs, then the other can remind her (2:282)

Again the women are held inferior and witness by two women equals witness by one man , And the reason has been clearly given , women have a higher tendency to make errors/ forget

Why cut the ayat short? Why didnt you give the full ayat?

O you who have believed, when you contract a debt for a specified term, write it down. And let a scribe write [it] between you in justice (contract). Let no scribe refuse to write as Allah has taught him. So let him write and let the one who has the obligation dictate. And let him fear Allah , his Lord, and not leave anything out of it. But if the one who has the obligation is of limited understanding or weak or unable to dictate himself, then let his guardian dictate in justice. And bring to witness two witnesses from among your men. And if there are not two men [available], then a man and two women from those whom you accept as witnesses - so that if one of the women errs, then the other can remind her. And let not the witnesses refuse when they are called upon. And do not be [too] weary to write it, whether it is small or large, for its [specified] term. That is more just in the sight of Allah and stronger as evidence and more likely to prevent doubt between you, except when it is an immediate transaction which you conduct among yourselves. For [then] there is no blame upon you if you do not write it. And take witnesses when you conclude a contract. Let no scribe be harmed or any witness. For if you do so, indeed, it is [grave] disobedience in you. And fear Allah . And Allah teaches you. And Allah is Knowing of all things.(Quran 2:282)

Now the verse clearly says this holds true for FINANCIAL purposes...it is NOT ISLAM's fault that MANY people use this for EVERYTHING!!


Rest I will read and answer later

 

[SarthakGanguly]

Why quote out of context? Seriously what was that ayat about?

[Quran 16:71] And Allah has favored some of you over others in provision. But those who were favored would not hand over their provision to those whom their right hands possess so they would be equal to them therein. Then is it the favor of Allah they reject?

Surah An-Nahl 16:71-76 -
Towards Understanding the Quran - Quran Translation Commentary - Tafheem ul Quran

take note:
On the contrary, when the verse is considered in its context, it becomes quite obvious that it is no more than the statement of a fact to prove the same theme that is contained in this passage. It argues like this: When you yourselves do not make your servants and slaves equal partners in your wealth, which in fact is given to you by Allah, how is it that you join other gods with God in your gratitude to Him for the favors with which He has blessed you. You know that these gods have no powers to bestow anything on anyone, and, therefore, have no right in your worship of Allah, for they are after all His slaves and servants.

This interpretation of the verse under discussion is corroborated by (Surah Ar-Room, Ayat 28): “Allah sets forth to you an instance from your own selves. Do your slaves share with you the wealth We have bestowed on you so that you and they become equals in this? And do you fear them as you fear one another? Thus We make clear Our signs to those who use their common sense.” A comparison of the two verses makes it quite clear that these have been cited to bring home to the mushriks that they themselves do not associate their slaves with themselves in their wealth and status, but they have the impudence and folly to set up His own creature as partner with God. It appears that the erroneous interpretation has been strengthened by the succeeding sentence: What! do they then deny to acknowledge Allah’s favor?

So saying this crap is not justified at all:



we can easily refute this...

The meaning of a slave is a person who has no say, has no value and is a property....Now once Islam gives rights to a slave, where you are responsible for his/her health, his/her well being and many more things...the word slave can be removed as it no longer is in context with slavery!
this website explains it a little better: The Wisdom Fund - Slavery in Islam


How did you misinterpret the part in red? MARRY ONE OR not marry one AND! And towards the end the MORE SUITABLE point is highlighted! Please read the whole verse before concluding or writing essays!

May I as where did you get the one in red for sure not from the Quran:

Do not marry unbelieving women until they believe. A slave woman who believes is better than an unbelieving woman, even though if she attracts you. And not marry (your girls) to unbelievers until they believe. A man slave who believes is better than an unbeliever, even though if he attracts you. Unbelievers do (but) beckon you to the fire but Allah beckons by His grace to the garden (of bliss) and forgiveness, and makes His signs clear to mankind; that they may receive admonition. (al-Baqarah, 221).

(Lawful unto you in marriage are chaste women who are believers and chaste women among the people of the book. (al-Ma'idah, 5).

As for law of Pakistan...is law of Pakistan not law of Islam!


Well, a woman is a princess it is nice if she has a wali with her...even in a Christian marriage the father gives away his daughter....I dont see how this is in any case even significant to be taken into account...Every parent wants to be there for the marriage or be involved how is this degrading or coming against UN human rights thing?

Have you asked why? Coz for the woman, it is the DUTY of the man to provide...even in the West if the man there is a saying REAL MEN WORK AND LOOK AFTER THEIR WOMEN...so again how is this attacking anything from human rights point of view?

Hence, if the guy has his mother, unwed sisters and wife to look after while the sister has her husband while the other unwed sister is being looked after by the guy, who would require more?

So you plan to be a bum and live off the wifey? When I say this why would you feel offended? If you are saying this is against HUMAN RIGHTS OF UN...then apparently you want the opposite, right? If not then how is this relevant? Plus the word superior is never used in the Quran...so please dont add your own words ..thank you!

STRIKE is a harsh word esp when you use a miswak to hit and NOT leave any impressions...and besides THAT IS THE LAST STANCE!

It is important to read the section fully. One should not take part of the verse and use it to justify one's own misconduct. This verse neither permits violence nor condones it. It guides us to ways to handle delicate family situation with care and wisdom. The word "beating" is used in the verse, but it does not mean "physical abuse". The Prophet (p.b.u.h.) explained it "dharban ghayra mubarrih" which means "a light tap that leaves no mark". He further said that face must be avoided. Some other scholars are of the view that it is no more than a light touch by siwak, or toothbrush.

Generally, the Prophet (p.b.u.h.) used to discourage his followers from taking even this measure. He never hit any female, and he used to say that the best of men are those who do not hit their wives. In one Hadith he expressed his extreme repulsion from this behavior and said, "How does anyone of you beat his wife as he beats the stallion camel and then embrace (sleep with) her?” (Al-Bukhari, English Translation, vol. 8, Hadith 68, pp. 42-43)

It is also important to note that even this "light strike" mentioned in the verse is not to be used to correct some minor problem, but it is permissible to resort to only in a situation of some serious moral misconduct when admonishing the wife fails, and avoiding from sleeping with her would not help. If this disciplinary action can correct a situation and save the marriage, then one should use it."

I see you have analyzed it:
I dont know why you want to hear out Ibn Katheer when all you need is the meanings of the words and then use your brain as to what it means...nowhere is the word superior used...stronger yes, it is not a lie MEN ARE STRONGER....

Why cut the ayat short? Why didnt you give the full ayat?

O you who have believed, when you contract a debt for a specified term, write it down. And let a scribe write [it] between you in justice (contract). Let no scribe refuse to write as Allah has taught him. So let him write and let the one who has the obligation dictate. And let him fear Allah , his Lord, and not leave anything out of it. But if the one who has the obligation is of limited understanding or weak or unable to dictate himself, then let his guardian dictate in justice. And bring to witness two witnesses from among your men. And if there are not two men [available], then a man and two women from those whom you accept as witnesses - so that if one of the women errs, then the other can remind her. And let not the witnesses refuse when they are called upon. And do not be [too] weary to write it, whether it is small or large, for its [specified] term. That is more just in the sight of Allah and stronger as evidence and more likely to prevent doubt between you, except when it is an immediate transaction which you conduct among yourselves. For [then] there is no blame upon you if you do not write it. And take witnesses when you conclude a contract. Let no scribe be harmed or any witness. For if you do so, indeed, it is [grave] disobedience in you. And fear Allah . And Allah teaches you. And Allah is Knowing of all things.(Quran 2:282)

Now the verse clearly says this holds true for FINANCIAL purposes...it is NOT ISLAM's fault that MANY people use this for EVERYTHING!!


Rest I will read and answer later

Boy o boy - you just reinforced what Azlan had to say ...

Read my posts above again then. Democracy has nothing to do with secularism. Democracy is rule of the majority. If democracy want, it can pass out laws to kill all minority who don't profess to a certain faith. Democracy is amoral. Laws are amoral. By amoral I mean, from an objective point of view, they are neither good or bad, those are just "actions". Those actions can be ANY thing.

You are confusing two different ideas and putting a condition that one can not exist without another. That is not the case, and quite frankly, silly.

Wrong - the minority cannot be held hostage to the will of the majority. That might be the rule of the majority but not democracy.

 

[M. Sarmad]

@Talon
Lets keep it very simple i.e [yes/no]

1) does islam prohibit slavery ? do slaves enjoy equal rights ?
2) do muslims and non muslims have equal status and rights in Islam ?
3) does quran give men and women equal rights & status ?

The answer to all of them is definitely "NO" ...
And that makes Islam contradict with the UN human rights declaration of 1948 and UN definition of democracy
And thats what this discussion is about !!! Whats so difficult to understand ??


And If you want to discuss other details regarding Islamic interpretations of these verses , then trust me I know very well what I am talking about ... I never meant to hurt your feminist ego , But truth is truth

I am not trying to say that Islam is wrong,
All I am saying is "Islam and democracy are incompatible"

 

[RangerPK]

Boy o boy - you just reinforced what Azlan had to say ...


Wrong - the minority cannot be held hostage to the will of the majority. That might be the rule of the majority but not democracy.

Japanese American internment - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Japanese American internment was the World War II internment in "War Relocation Camps" of over 110,000 people of Japanese heritage who lived on the Pacific coast of the United States. The U.S. government ordered the internment in 1942, shortly after Imperial Japan's attack on Pearl Harbor.[2][3] The internment of Japanese Americans was applied unequally as a geographic matter: all who lived on the West Coast were interned, while in Hawaii, where 150,000-plus Japanese Americans comprised over one-third of the population, only 1,200[4] to 1,800 were interned. Sixty-two percent of the internees wereAmerican citizens.[5][6]

President Franklin D. Roosevelt authorized the internment with Executive Order 9066, issued February 19, 1942, which allowed local military commanders to designate "military areas" as "exclusion zones," from which "any or all persons may be excluded." This power was used to declare that all people of Japanese ancestry were excluded from the entire Pacific coast



Also, I would like to add, this is a thread about Pakistan, on a Pakistani forum, discussed by Pakistanis. It is an internal matter of Pakistan, which I hope would reach to its logical conclusion by Pakistanis themselves. Without the interference from Indian members.

 

[ssethii]

@Talon
Lets keep it very simple i.e [yes/no]

1) does islam prohibit slavery ? do slaves enjoy equal rights ?
2) do muslims and non muslims have equal status and rights in Islam ?
3) does quran give men and women equal rights & status ?

The answer to all of them is definitely NO ...
And that makes Islam contradict with the UN human rights declaration of 1948 and UN definition of democracy
And thats what this discussion is about !!! Whats so difficult to understand ??

And If you want to discuss other details regarding Islamic interpretations of these verses , then trust me I know very well what I am talking about ...

I am not trying to say that Islam is wrong,
All I am saying is "Islam and democracy are incompatible"

Who cares about the 1948 UN definitions, they are not divine instruction whom we can't mend.

 

[FaujHistorian]

Who cares about the 1948 UN definitions, they are not divine instruction whom we can't mend.

What you say is a minority in the world
And the minority itself is not known to fully implement neither Un nor Quranic edicts on human rights.
Hope Islamsits wake up one day

But it is hard. Religion can make people blind and keep them high on Ayatuallahtic drugs.

So they never can face the reality

and continue repeating slogans as a blind and deaf person would do.

You talk to them about 2013, they jumpt to 700AD

you talk to them about 700AD and they jump to 200 AD

And thus this $tupid game of hide and seek goes on and on and on.

 

[FaujHistorian]

Ok bro ....I cant argue with you any more ..
I gave you the UN official explanation in the above post and you say that it is silly , ...

If you believe that your definitions and understanding is better than the understanding of intellectuals of the whole world combined (i.e UN) , then I rest my case
Peace

Bhai sahib

Pakistani quom and especially our marxist leftist intellectuals want to sing
alhamdulillah and inshallah hazrat umar mashaallah
while keeping their eyes closed and their ears shut.

like that old bollywood song

-- Dum maro Dum
-- Mit Jai Ghum
-- Bolo Subha Shaam
-- Haray Krishna Haray raam.

Just replace the last line

with

-- Haray Mullah Haray Ayatullam

 

[M. Sarmad]

Bhai sahib

Pakistani quom and especially our marxist leftist intellectuals want to sing
alhamdulillah and inshallah hazrat umar mashaallah
while keeping their eyes closed and their ears shut.

like that old bollywood song

-- Dum maro Dum
-- Mit Jai Ghum
-- Bolo Subha Shaam
-- Haray Krishna Haray raam.

Just replace the last line

with

-- Haray Mullah Haray Ayatullam

Bhai jan Marxist intellectuals do not sing religion
you are mixing far right with far left
Faiz was the only leftist intellectual we ever had ,,
Aitezaz Ahsan presently
Leftists are liberal activists
Conservatives are the .................. !!!

 

[FaujHistorian]

Bhai jan Marxist intellectuals do not sing religion
you are mixing far right with far left
Faiz was the only leftist intellectual we ever had ,,
Aitezaz Hassan presently
Leftists are liberal activists
Conservatives are the .................. !!!

Marx's theory was based on biblical teachings so he was pretty much applying old religion to industrialized europe.

When marxism left the Western Europe, it took many forms. East Europe removed bibilical component and made it to communism/socialism.


Within Western europe then, a change occured and Fabian society and teachings came along and they removed anti-god component from Communism/socialims and this resulted in the beginning of labor party in England.

Fabian society became popular about the same time when many Indian Muslims and Hindu youth was in England mostly studying law.

These young Muslims and Hindus got inspired by Fabian society

then came back

And started taliking about Islamic socialism.


So my dear Azlan

I have done my homework to understand what links modern day Islamic socialism in Pakistan, back to Fabian-ism,

and

in turn

what links Fabianism back to socialism

and

in turn

what links

socialims back to Karl Marx


Hope this helps.

 

[M. Sarmad]

Marx's theory was based on biblical teachings so he was pretty much applying old religion to industrialized europe.

When marxism left the Western Europe, it took many forms. East Europe removed bibilical component and made it to communism/socialism.


Within Western europe then, a change occured and Fabian society and teachings came along about the same time when many Indian Muslims and Hindu youth was in England mostly studying law.

These young Muslims and Hindus got inspired by Fabian society

then came back

And started taliking about Islamic socialism.


So my dear Azlan

I have done my homework to understand what links modern day Islamic socialism in Pakistan, back to Fabian-ism,

and

in turn

what links Fabianism back to socialism

and

in turn

what links

socialims back to Karl Marx


Hope this helps.

I knew this was the topic of your next thread
What are you waiting for ? open a new thread please

 

[haman10]

EH , quite the contrary ISLAMIC REPUBLIC OF IRAN ,

is the most advanced muslim country ! so maybe they fit together huh ?

 

[W.11]

EH , quite the contrary ISLAMIC REPUBLIC OF IRAN ,

is the most advanced muslim country ! so maybe they fit together huh ?

u guys have oil, and still malaysia, turkey, indonesia are doing much better than iran