Turkiye will totally change the rules of game in region: TF-X MMU Stealth Fighter

[Bengal71]

Why should Rolls-Royce work with TR Motor when they can work with their long time Partners "Kale Aero".

TEI and Kale Aero are obviously the only Turkish companies that are capable to build a Aircraft engine.



Which Muslim country has the Money to buy some TFX (~100 Million Dollars/each)?
Saudi Arabia, UAE, Qatar and maybe Indonesia!

Without ToT or technical support from the leading companies in this sector, no chance to see a combarably good engine in the next 10-15 years.

Maybe Malaysia, Indonesia and Egypt. Economic outlook is also good for Pakistan and BD, maybe they can afford some too in the future, this plane won't be available for at least another 10-15 years. But that's not the point, point is Turkey is looking to become self-reliant. Being dependent for engines to countries that are totally opposed to Turkey or any Muslim country becoming a powerhouse is not a good idea. Anyway, your country, you can decide what is best for you. Just expressing my opinion.

 

[Indos]

With S 400 and F 35 in hands, Turkey will test the effectiveness of STEALTH technology

I personally wanted to see the name of Indonesia inside Tf-X project since they are advanced in air technologies and Indonesia certainly requires such a platform so They are in S. Korean KF-X program. We missed a great opportunity. Turkish/Indonesian joint programs provide perfect machines in defence industry. The last program Turkey and Indonesia agreed to be partner is Anka-2 drones.

Yup, Turkey and Indonesia have been collaborating in many sector like PT DI and TAI (aerospace), Pindad and FNSS (tank), LEN and Aselsan (electronics). I hope beside cooperation in MALE UCAV and medium tank that is currently undergoing, we can also see collaboration on N 219 and N 245 aircraft. I think the collaboration on that civil aircraft really have much possibility to get much money and order for us. As we know, civilian aircraft has much bigger market than military aircraft.

Talking about Indonesia joining TFX, it is still a possibility since KFX hasnt yet produced any prototype yet. The relationship between Korean and Indonesian on KFX program is still not that firm currently due to some disagreement that make Indonesia need to renegotiate some terms.

About the amount of 5 generation fighter we would like to have. Actually we have promised to buy 50 plane on KFX program. Prediction on Indonesia nominal GDP in 2030 is around 2 trillion USD. With current defense budget which is 8 billion USD (with 1 trillion nominal GDP), it is likely to be doubled in 2030, so we can possibly see Indonesian defense budget raise into 16 billion USD per year 12 years from now. With -possibly- 16 billion USD per year I think we have enough money to spend on 50-100 5 generation fighter.

 

[xenon54 out]

The cooperations with Indonesia have been very fruitful so far, it would be a smart choice to further enhance it.

 

[UKBengali]

Which Muslim country has the Money to buy some TFX (~100 Million Dollars/each)?
Saudi Arabia, UAE, Qatar and maybe Indonesia!

Without ToT or technical support from the leading companies in this sector, no chance to see a combarably good engine in the next 10-15 years.

I agree on the engine part.

As for Muslim countries that can afford to buy the jet, please add in both BD and Pakistan. Pakistan as it spends a high proportion of GDP on defence and BD is predicted to the the fastest growing large economy till 2030 at least.

If Turkey can deliver on a true next generation fighter then hundreds will be sold to Muslim countries in the 2030s.

 

[Islamic faith&Secularism]

With S 400 and F 35 in hands, Turkey will test the effectiveness of STEALTH technology


Yup, Turkey and Indonesia have been collaborating in many sector like PT DI and TAI (aerospace), Pindad and FNSS (tank), LEN and Aselsan (electronics). I hope beside cooperation in MALE UCAV and medium tank that is currently undergoing, we can also see collaboration on N 219 and N 245 aircraft. I think the collaboration on that civil aircraft really have much possibility to get much money and order for us. As we know, civilian aircraft has much bigger market than military aircraft.

Talking about Indonesia joining TFX, it is still a possibility since KFX hasnt yet produced any prototype yet. The relationship between Korean and Indonesian on KFX program is still not that firm currently due to some disagreement that make Indonesia need to renegotiate some terms.

About the amount of 5 generation fighter we would like to have. Actually we have promised to buy 50 plane on KFX program. Prediction on Indonesia nominal GDP in 2030 is around 2 trillion USD. With current defense budget which is 8 billion USD (with 1 trillion nominal GDP), it is likely to be doubled in 2030, so we can possibly see Indonesian defense budget raise into 16 billion USD per year 12 years from now. With -possibly- 16 billion USD per year I think we have enough money to spend on 50-100 5 generation fighter.

Re-negotiation means options, one of which is probably the looming TF-X programme; however, the current issue to take part in the technology cooking stands still even if Indonesia continues with Turkey that has (despite) some experiences in a few fields but still in co-operation with third parties.

So what is it Indonesia can offer besides money for demanding more in the JV?

Also, Indonesian withdrawal from the current JV with Korea is higly out of question unless you have details of agreement with Korea.

 

[Indos]

Re-negotiation means options, one of which is probably the looming TF-X programme; however, the current issue to take part in the technology cooking stands still even if Indonesia continues with Turkey that has (despite) some experiences in a few fields but still in co-operation with third parties.

So what is it Indonesia can offer besides money for demanding more in the JV?

Do you mean what we can offer on KFX program beside money ?

Indonesia contributes around 36 engineers in the first phase of development and 80 engineers in the second phase of development of KFX/IFX program. We has contributed since 2011. Our engineers contribution on KFX program is higher in percentage than our financial contribution which is only 20 %. It means Indonesia engineering contribution is needed, and there is also part of work where only Indonesian who has the knowledge.

Our engineers who work in Boeing are quite many and we call some of them back to help KFX program (during 1999-2004 many of our engineers left due to financial problem faced by PT Dirgantara since IMF at that time forbid Indonesian government to inject money to PT DI although we still have two unfinished program that needs money-N 250 and N 2130.)

Beside that, Indonesia also has promised to buy 50 planes. And there is publication saying that the commitment is then increased into 80 planes.

Also, Indonesian withdrawal from the current JV with Korea is higly out of question unless you have details of agreement with Korea.

Indonesia hasnt yet withdrawn from the project, we rather consider to withdrawn and right now is in renegotiation process.

 

[Maxpane]

sir is there any news about pakistan involvement in this project?

 

[CAN_TR]

sir is there any news about pakistan involvement in this project?

No.

 

[Islamic faith&Secularism]

sir is there any news about pakistan involvement in this project?

Azerbaijan and Qatar may be in the top of list.

Given the policy shift of the Western defence industry towards Azerbaijan, I think Azerbaijan defence industry will come forward in some multi national projects.

Do you mean what we can offer on KFX program beside money ?

Indonesia contributes around 36 engineers in the first phase of development and 80 engineers in the second phase of development of KFX/IFX program. We has contributed since 2011. Our engineers contribution on KFX program is higher in percentage than our financial contribution which is only 20 %. It means Indonesia engineering contribution is needed, and there is also part of work where only Indonesian who has the knowledge.

Our engineers who work in Boeing are quite many and we call some of them back to help KFX program (during 1999-2004 many of our engineers left due to financial problem faced by PT Dirgantara since IMF at that time forbid Indonesian government to inject money to PT DI although we still have two unfinished program that needs money-N 250 and N 2130.)

Beside that, Indonesia also has promised to buy 50 planes. And there is publication saying that the commitment is then increased into 80 planes.



Indonesia hasnt yet withdrawn from the project, we rather consider to withdrawn and right now is in renegotiation process.

It needs more than the number of engineers to build a new thing; in otherwords, know-how and experience.

Given the current deal with Korea and re-negotiation request, your perspective has not filled the gap in these two words.

 

[xenon54 out]

It needs more than the number of engineers to build a new thing; in otherwords, know-how and experience.

Given the current deal with Korea and re-negotiation request, your perspective has not filled the gap in these two words.

Just being the first big customer means a lot, there is a reason why Koreans took Indonesia as partner.

 

[Islamic faith&Secularism]

Just being the first big customer means a lot, there is a reason why Koreans took Indonesia as partner.

Indonesia is not in the current JV with Korea only for fighters.

 

[Indos]

It needs more than the number of engineers to build a new thing; in otherwords, know-how and experience.

Indonesian has experience building plane since 1954, the name of the plane is si Kumbang who is built by Nurtanio.

PT Dirgantara itself is just a change name, before the name of the company is Nurtanio which has been established much longer. During 1980, PT Dirgantara Indonesia (PT DI) has designed CN 235 with CASA, at that time the name of the company is PT IPTN.

CN 235

During the mid 1980's, IPTN design N 250 that has flown in 1995. The development is stop due to IMF prohibition and 1998 monetary crisis.

IPTN was also working with N 2130 which is a jet engine plane with around 80-130 passengers in 1995-2000. The development is stop due to IMF prohibition.

And currently we also design N 219 which has already been ordered about 120 planes

Many of PT DI engineers are also working abroad like Boeing, the number working there is around 200 and we are able to bring some of them back for KFX and R 80 plane

R 80 aircraft

We do have experienced engineers who knows know how

Talking about Stealth jet fighter, we do have design experience with LFX (Lapan Fighter Experiment). Indonesian design LFX after getting experience with KFX first phase development. If I am not mistaken the research was conducted after South Korea postphone KFX program (2014-2015)

 

[cabatli_53]

Indonesian has experience building plane since 1954, the name of the plane is si Kumbang who is built by Nurtanio.

PT Dirgantara itself is just a change name, before the name of the company is Nurtanio which has been established much longer. During 1980, PT Dirgantara Indonesia (PT DI) has designed CN 235 with CASA, at that time the name of the company is PT IPTN. During the mid 1980's, IPTN design N 250 that has flown in 1995. The development is stop due to IMF prohibition and 1998 monetary crisis.

IPTN was also working with N 2130 which is a jet engine plane with around 80-130 passengers. The development is stop due to IMF prohibition.

And currently we also design N 219 which has already been ordered about 120 planes

Many of PT DI engineers are also working abroad like Boeing, the number working there is around 200 and we are able to bring some of them back for KFX and R 80 plane

R 80 aircraft

We do have experienced engineers who knows know how

Successfull background of Indonesian aerospace industry make Indonesia a perfect candidate to be a partner of TF-X project. KF-X is actually a US-S.Korean program since almost all critical technologies will be transfered via US institutes and It seems US is not happy with a Muslim partner inside KF-X program. They don’t want to share know-how with Indonesia having close relations with Russia. S. Korea is the one who is struggling to end the worries of US with sharing limited technology with Indonesian engineers. It is the reason of trouble between partners as far as I know.

 

[UKBengali]

@Indos

Turkey is clearly far ahead of Indonesia in avionics and missiles and so Indonesia would have nothing to offer in this area.

The only area that it is at a similar level to Turkey is in airframe tech. Indonesia has more design experience for large aircraft while Turkey has more experience in UAVs and licence production of fighters like the F-16 where it built from scratch 80% of the airframe components like aft center fuselages and wings.

For Turkey to succeed in building a competitive 5th generation fighter it needs to go with a world-class company like BAe that has ample design and systems integration experience. This way Turkey will be learning from the very best and so can then truly go it alone for it's next fighter after TF-X.

No offence but Indonesia is nowhere near at a level where it can contribute significantly in making a competitive jet that comes into service in 2029.

 

[Indos]

@Indos

Turkey is clearly far ahead of Indonesia in avionics and missiles and so Indonesia would have nothing to offer in this area.

The only area that it is at a similar level to Turkey is in airframe tech. Indonesia has more design experience for large aircraft while Turkey has more experience in UAVs and licence production of fighters like the F-16 where it built from scratch 80% of the airframe components like aft center fuselages and wings.

Ya, I have to agree on this, we do have avionics companies, for example PT LEN (state owned) and Info Global (private enterprise), but Aselsan is more advance. Talking about missile, Indonesia is also still in learning phase.

Talking about F 16, you should know that Indonesian made F 16 wings during 1990's.

Well, Indonesian can contribute to the design, for instant KFX design is helped by Indonesian. KAI uses Indonesian-ADD design C 103 as a base design for KFX. Our engineers in the program are 30 % of total engineers, more than our financial contribution which is only 20 %, it reveals that they need us. An experienced big aircraft designer can design a jet fighter as well, the principle is still the same, N 250 is also a fly by wire aircraft.

No offence but Indonesia is nowhere near at a level where it can contribute significantly in making a competitive jet that comes into service in 2029[/USER]

I dont say Indonesia can contribute significantly but we rather can help on the design and we will buy some amount of the plane also as fixed customers so it will help the cost go down.

For Turkey to succeed in building a competitive 5th generation fighter it needs to go with a world-class company like BAe that has ample design and systems integration experience. This way Turkey will be learning from the very best and so can then truly go it alone for it's next fighter after TF-X.[/USER]

This is that should be cautious, BAe is a British company, BAe seeks profit and I am not sure that BAe will use 100% of its expertise to help Turkey sincerely. Indonesian hire some foreigner for N 250 plane and the plane prove to have more weight than it should be. Now we use 100 % Indonesian to design N 219.

Beside that BAe hasnt got any experience in STEALTH design.