Turkiye will totally change the rules of game in region: TF-X MMU Stealth Fighter

[MMM-E]

TEI said that we can develop engine for TF-X in 14,5 years

and Turkey offers Rolls Royce to develop engine for TF-X project with TR MOTOR
but Rolls Royce and Kale Group create defence aero engine joint venture
Kale Group will own 51% and Rolls Royce 49% of the joint venture, which aims to develop aircraft engines for the TF-X National Fighter Jet Project

TF-X may not be F-35 but it would be an accomplishment.

TF-X twin engine air superiority Fighter is to compensate for some of the F-35's weaknesses in air to air combat

 

[UKBengali]

TF-X may not be F-35 but it would be an accomplishment.

TF-X will be a much better air-superiority fighter than F-35.

 

[MMM-E]

 

[xenon54 out]

TF-X may not be F-35 but it would be an accomplishment.

Actually TF-X is aimed to be something like a air superiority fighter.

Check the specs out:

How many languages of this fact sheet exist?

 

[cabatli_53]

True but without partners like BAe and Rollys Royce, TF-X cannot happen.
Turkey does not have enough experience(systems integration) and enough engine tech currently to successfully develop such an advanced aircraft.
OK to have silent partners like Qatar as they will only be involved in funding.

The project is proceeding like How you envisaged.

• Concept design of TF-X commenced in 2013
• Engineering and Pre-Design Study (Phase-1) kicked off in 2016.
• BAE system joined into Phase-1 in January 2017. They accepted to provide 400 engineer/year to TF-X design office.
• Phase-1 will be completed by 2019-2020 and Phase-2 (Critical Design Review & Prototype production) will commence in same year.
• (7) TF-X prototypes will be produced for testing, certification and qualification of aircraft in Phase-2. Completion of P-2 will take ~8 years.
• The cost of P1: ~1,3 billion $, Phase-2: ~7,3 billion $
• Direct involvement of total engineers/technicians for Engineering and Manufacturing Development (EMD): 3200, while indirect involvement for EMD phase: 11200 person.
• Serial production cost: ~14 billion $
• Roll-out: 2023, First Flight: 2026

Engine issue:

• The winner of engine tender is not announced yet. Tender subjects bidders to develop a turbofan engine which has a thrust of 27000lbf until serial production of TF-X commence. All IP rights including export rights of engine to 3rd party countries will be delivered to Turkish Republic. The winner institute will deliver all blueprints (for serial production) to a new institute called TRMotor (TAI [% 35] + BMC [% 55] + SSM [% 10]). Two institute gave their offers to SSM. One of bidder, TEI wants to develop a domestic turbofan engine from scratch, while RR accepts all terms including extensive technology transfer for a new institute that has stakes of RR (KaleAero), not for TR Motor. A MoU had been signed with RR but It has not been announced yet what is the latest situation in TF-X engine tender.

 

[LeGenD]

TF-X twin engine air superiority Fighter is to compensate for some of the F-35's weaknesses in air to air combat

Two engines? I see. Good decision.

F-35 is an incredibly complex machine, featuring breakthrough technologies and will do well in A2A engagements. However, single engine = penalty in range and super-cruise.

I would reserve further judgement until the project approach prototyping phase. Best of luck.

@UKBengali
@xenon54

 

[MMM-E]

 

[dBSPL]

Turkey, Russia and Iran should collaborate developing 5th generation fighter jet. It will reduce the cost burden on individual countries and enhance the quality. This collaboration should come up with equal or better 5th generation fighter jet than US made F-35 which US supplied to Israel but refusing to give Turkey despite Turkish collaboration. The new Turkish+Russian+Iranian 5th generation fighter jet should be given to Iran, Syria and Lebanon to prevent Israeli attack upon them.

Unfortunately, the Iranian aviation industry can not add anything to us.
And the Russian aviation standards and logistics structure, very different from the current industry standard in Turkey. In other words, in addition to the technical advantages, there is huge infrastructure costs for a country industrialized in western standards.

Turkey as a country with its own unique circumstances, has launched an indigenous movement over its existing infrastructure. And of course, defense systems that it is producing are designed exactly according to their original needs.

 

[dBSPL]

Turkey should save itself from Trump first. Turkey's fifth generation plane will compete with so called chinese fifth generation plane J31 and J20.

This project did not start yesterday. It's been seven years.Legal regulations have been completed. About 500 high engineers from the UK and the United States will employe for the TFX project. All of these personnel have worked in important projects and are important names in the field. (In addition to 10,000 work force)

Turkish aviation industry has been working as a supplier for Boeing - Airbus - Lockheed, but in the recent years almost all of thems working for design capability. Again in connection with the issue, TAI has created over 3000 jobs. Necessary Infrastructure investments decisions were taken under the scope of the incentive with a government decree. (2018-2033) With regard to design, testing and qualification, serious purchases have been made in the last 5 years.

In summary, necessary infrastructure standards have been established for the project. The qualified work force is about to be completed.

On the basis of subsystems, Roketsan and Tübitak Sage are about to complete ammunition groups. (Sr and BVR missiles, etc.) Aselsan is ahead of the project on avionics packages. The new generation countermeasure systems will also be operational before the project. TAI's installed capacity is suitable for building a new generation frame but with additional investments, other projects will be protected.

In parallel with the project, many different projects (such as combat management systems integrated with Uav systems , indigenous IFF, Network-centric combat management and etc.) continuing in their field.

Although Turkis aviation industry produced many critical parts for world's largest engine manufacturers: does not have a accumulation to design and produce a jet engine yet, with 20.000lb level. This is Turkey's most important missing point. Note that the most critical business links for the MMU project are mostly about engine issues.

 

[HariPrasad]

This project did not start yesterday. It's been seven years.Legal regulations have been completed. About 500 high engineers from the UK and the United States will employe for the TFX project. All of these personnel have worked in important projects and are important names in the field. (In addition to 10,000 work force)

Turkish aviation industry has been working as a supplier for Boeing - Airbus - Lockheed, but in the recent years almost all of thems working for design capability. Again in connection with the issue, TAI has created over 3000 jobs. Necessary Infrastructure investments decisions were taken under the scope of the incentive with a government decree. (2018-2033) With regard to design, testing and qualification, serious purchases have been made in the last 5 years.

In summary, necessary infrastructure standards have been established for the project. The qualified work force is about to be completed.

On the basis of subsystems, Roketsan and Tübitak Sage are about to complete ammunition groups. (Sr and BVR missiles, etc.) Aselsan is ahead of the project on avionics packages. The new generation of active decoys and ECM systems will also be operational before the project. TAI's installed capacity is suitable for building a new generation frame but with additional investments, other projects will be protected.

In parallel with the project, many different projects (such as combat management systems integrated with Uav systems , indigenous IFF, Network-centric combat management and etc.) continuing in their field.

Although Turkis aviation industry produced many critical parts for world's largest engine manufacturers: does not have a accumulation to design and produce a jet engine yet, with 20.000lb level. This is Turkey's most important missing point. Note that the most critical business links for the MMU project are mostly about engine issues.

I wish Turkey best of luck in her endeavor of building fifth generation fighter. Best of luck.

 

[Bengal71]

The project is proceeding like How you envisaged.

• Concept design of TF-X commenced in 2013
• Engineering and Pre-Design Study (Phase-1) kicked off in 2016.
• BAE system joined into Phase-1 in January 2017. They accepted to provide 400 engineer/year to TF-X design office.
• Phase-1 will be completed by 2019-2020 and Phase-2 (Critical Design Review & Prototype production) will commence in same year.
• (7) TF-X prototypes will be produced for testing, certification and qualification of aircraft in Phase-2. Completion of P-2 will take ~8 years.
• The cost of P1: ~1,3 billion $, Phase-2: ~7,3 billion $
• Direct involvement of total engineers/technicians for Engineering and Manufacturing Development (EMD): 3200, while indirect involvement for EMD phase: 11200 person.
• Serial production cost: ~14 billion $
• Roll-out: 2023, First Flight: 2026

Engine issue:

• The winner of engine tender is not announced yet. Tender subjects bidders to develop a turbofan engine which has a thrust of 27000lbf until serial production of TF-X commence. All IP rights including export rights of engine to 3rd party countries will be delivered to Turkish Republic. The winner institute will deliver all blueprints (for serial production) to a new institute called TRMotor (TAI [% 35] + BMC [% 55] + SSM [% 10]). Two institute gave their offers to SSM. One of bidder, TEI wants to develop a domestic turbofan engine from scratch, while RR accepts all terms including extensive technology transfer for a new institute that has stakes of RR (KaleAero), not for TR Motor. A MoU had been signed with RR but It has not been announced yet what is the latest situation in TF-X engine tender.

I really hope the project will be successful, it will be good for Turkey and the Muslim world.

However, I don't think British will share their engine technology, I know you mentioned about MOU on IP rights etc. But the such a project becoming successful is not in the interest of the US and Brits are the staunchest allies of the US. The Brits will likely pull out at some point, probably when they already made a decent amount of money but did not divulge much of their technology.

Turkey should go for a totally indigenous fighter including the engine or seek an alternative partner.

Best wishes for Turkey.

 

[MMM-E]

However, I don't think British will share their engine technology, I know you mentioned about MOU on IP rights etc.

Rollse Royce is ready to develop engine for the TFX with Kale Aero ... but not TR Motor

https://www.rolls-royce.com/media/p...create-defence-aero-engine-joint-venture.aspx



and TUSAS Engine Industries says that we can develop turbofan engine for the TF-X in 15 years

sooner or later we will develop our own turbofan engine for Fighter Jets as like we develops TEI TS1400 Turboshaft Engine for Helicopters

TAI's world class facilities and machinery on a 4 million sqm area with a state of the art industrial facility of over 296.000 sqm under roof

 

[Bengal71]

Rollse Royce is ready to develop engine for the TFX with Kale Aero ... but not TR Motor

https://www.rolls-royce.com/media/p...create-defence-aero-engine-joint-venture.aspx



and TUSAS Engine Industries says that we can develop turbofan engine for the TF-X in 15 years

TEI TS1400 Gas turbine Engine

TAI's world class facilities and machinery on a 4 million sqm area with a state of the art industrial facility of over 296.000 sqm under roof

I read about the joint venture already bro. You also were a partner in the F-3 project, look how the US is dilly-dallying about delivery now.

The western powers are a totally different civilization with their interests in mind. Any other power is not in their interest, as such in the long run they will try to ensure no other power gets their hands on such technologies. If Turkish companies are capable of producing engines in 15 years then that's the direction you should be headed.

 

[CAN_TR]

Rollse Royce is ready to develop engine for the TFX with Kale Aero ... but not TR Motor

Why should Rolls-Royce work with TR Motor when they can work with their long time Partners "Kale Aero".

TEI and Kale Aero are obviously the only Turkish companies that are capable to build a Aircraft engine.

I really hope the project will be successful, it will be good for Turkey and the Muslim world.

However, I don't think British will share their engine technology, I know you mentioned about MOU on IP rights etc. But the such a project becoming successful is not in the interest of the US and Brits are the staunchest allies of the US. The Brits will likely pull out at some point, probably when they already made a decent amount of money but did not divulge much of their technology.

Turkey should go for a totally indigenous fighter including the engine or seek an alternative partner.

Best wishes for Turkey.

Which Muslim country has the Money to buy some TFX (~100 Million Dollars/each)?
Saudi Arabia, UAE, Qatar and maybe Indonesia!

Without ToT or technical support from the leading companies in this sector, no chance to see a combarably good engine in the next 10-15 years.

 

[MMM-E]

Why should Rolls-Royce work with TR Motor when they can work with their long time Partners "Kale Aero".

Kale Aero work with American Pratt & Whitney
and Kale Group which owns 51% stake in the joint venture and Pratt & Whitney which owns 49 % ..... facility state of the art technologies critical parts to the production of the F135 engine of F35 Fighter Jet in Izmir/Turkey


and only 6 engine companies in the world have blisk-spool technologies and TEI is one of them ,,, not KALE