Turkish Politics & Internal Affairs

[Ottoman_cocuğu]

yeah, I'm sure, whatever, fvck you

If I was indocrinated by the education system I'd be a religious sod like you who thinks secularism is backwards
I've got NOTHING from the system.

Ffs people don't insult each other

 

[Ceri]

Ffs people don't insult each other

I Don't mind him, i won't return with same amount of insult.

 

[LegionnairE]

No, i told you, Ottoman's golden age ended in the 1700s and Europe took over in science and progress generally. Before that Ottoman empire was a safe haven for all religions and there existed much better prosperity and harmony than Europe had ever seen.

Ottoman Empire was always a safe heaven from those who escape inqusition... people who'd be branded as heretics and burned in Europe could survive in Ottoman Empire by paying cizye. That had nothing to do with prosperity or harmony.

Progress of the Islamic world have been killed off by Ghazali long before Ottoman Empire even existed.

This is just a part of Neil Degrasse Tyson's speech that is relevant to our conversation.
It's not long, you should watch it.

After 1453 byzantine scholars flee to europe, by 1500s reinnassaince and reform movements begin taking shape, church starts losing power and that makes a domino effect into french revolution and spread of nationalism and by that time religious empires' coffins were sealed. There was NOTHING the Ottoman Empire could do. Those territories were sooner or later going to be lost.

Ottoman Empire's collapse and Turkey's creation was inevitable.

and it really blows my mind how someone can be stupid enough to talk about religious harmony after the arab revolt.

You know, "christendom" was a thing before WWI and WWII when christians countries butchered each other. They don't use that word outside sarcastic context anymore.

That was going to happen sooner or later, arab revolt was going to happen sooner or later. Nobody could stop that progress. Atatürk didn't start it he only gave it shape. He saw what must be done and he has done it.

Ffs people don't insult each other

You should appreciate even my insults

it tells you how wrong you are

which is the most important information in the world

 

[Ceri]

Ottoman's collapse was naturally inevitable in an age of progress. Christians were afraid of science when arab muslims were leading in every aspect, the tables turned and Christian Europeans led the world in science and muslims started demonizing science. Still under Suleiman in the 1500s the Ottoman empire experienced its golden age and they did many things right compared to other civilizations. M. Kemal did many things right, yet his vision for change involved diminishing islam in Turkey because analyzing the Empire he came to the conclusion of islam not being capable of merging with modern science and society. That is the point im trying to make here, by doing so many muslims were alienated because they wanted to continue their practice of religion even though this was seen as backwards. And this political climate has if anything handicapped Turkey's progress, instead of focusing on valuable long term goals, we focused on whether islam goes hand in hand with progress or not, whether scarf is a symbol, whether we should allow this and that. Crippling the nation almost beyond repair.

 

[jamahir]

Turkish police detains ISIS in Istanbul

ah, i see that a biased mod has merged the thread... he or she doesn't want non-turks to participate in discussions about turkey.

Next thread from the USSR fanboys

ussr fan here.

Next thread from the USSR fanboys: Why Turkey should leave NATO and join the CIS after Erdogan loses election

good idea !!

 

[Oublious]

Ottoman Empire was always a safe heaven from those who escape inqusition... people who'd be branded as heretics and burned in Europe could survive in Ottoman Empire by paying cizye. That had nothing to do with prosperity or harmony.

Progress of the Islamic world have been killed off by Ghazali long before Ottoman Empire even existed.

This is just a part of Neil Degrasse Tyson's speech that is relevant to our conversation.
It's not long, you should watch it.

After 1453 byzantine scholars flee to europe, by 1500s reinnassaince and reform movements begin taking shape, church starts losing power and that makes a domino effect into french revolution and spread of nationalism and by that time religious empires' coffins were sealed. There was NOTHING the Ottoman Empire could do. Those territories were sooner or later going to be lost.

Ottoman Empire's collapse and Turkey's creation was inevitable.

and it really blows my mind how someone can be stupid enough to talk about religious harmony after the arab revolt.

You know, "christendom" was a thing before WWI and WWII when christians countries butchered each other. They don't use that word outside sarcastic context anymore.

That was going to happen sooner or later, arab revolt was going to happen sooner or later. Nobody could stop that progress. Atatürk didn't start it he only gave it shape. He saw what must be done and he has done it.


You should appreciate even my insults

it tells you how wrong you are

which is the most important information in the world

So tell us what Ghazzali did killed exactly?

 

[LegionnairE]

So tell us what Ghazzali did killed exactly?

other than the things Neil Degrasse Tyson explain in the video? he preached that questioning the world would eventionally lead to questioning the god so that critical thinking itself was bad.

if you speak Turkish you could type "akla ket vurmak" on google and you'll probably find his picture.
@Ceri islam is backwards, it became backwards because it's religion's nature to become backwards. Few weeks ago there was eid and like most Turkish families my family have sacrificed a cow in the islamic rules. It wasn't a pretty scene to watch. After the throat of the cow has been cut... it struggled on the ground for minutes in agony, breathing through it's throat, bleeding, rattling and when I said... "we're living in 21st century can't we just administer some anesthesia at least? " and they say "it's against the islamic rules" then I point my finger at the dying cow over there and say "is this not?" no answers.

Because their religion is perfect. There can be no reforms in it. If you talk of reform you talk of heresy. So there can be no progress. What's ironic is the current version of this "perfect book" this "unchangeable book" was written by the third Caliph osman I find that particularly amusing

and about headscarf, yes it is a political symbol for people to show off that they belong to the right wing. It has nothing to do with honor, virtue, or purity or piety.. I've banged more headscarved chicks than I could count. It's not any different than mussolini's black shirts.

I also met more headscarved atheists than you could imagine... they just wear it because either their family or their social position forces them to... or they find it actually sexy (I find it sexy)

 

[Ahiska]

No, i told you, Ottoman's golden age ended in the 1700s and Europe took over in science and progress generally. Before that Ottoman empire was a safe haven for all religions and there existed much better prosperity and harmony than Europe had ever seen.
The issue i am raising here is the way in which people seem to ignore the fact that Ataturk, even though i think he had good intentions and he did what he truly believed in would be most prosperous for the country he did not take into account that social harmony depended among Turkish in primarily islam, because Turks had embraced islam many centuries ago. One example is the first factory was beer factory in Ankara to symbolize progress and to lessen islamic virtues. It is no secret if one is truly interested in real history of Turkish republic that M. Kemal really percieved islam as an obstacle for progress, just read what he said. There are countless examples. We may have good rights in Turkey now, but remember that many suffered under the banners of kemalism when headscarf was banned and a woman in TBMM was thrown out because she wore the scarf and all these rezillik. That is my point, how will you have social cohesion and harmony and progress and science when you primarily focused on what people wore and denied them their rights.

The headscarf penalty in Universities was not an idea of Atatürk.
Also i dont see a problem in making a beer factory (many people in the Ottoman Empire drank Raki and other alcoholic brewage) its not like everyone in the Ottoman Empire was a perfect muslim and lived according to the Sharia.......
And like i said i dont care about the CHP and its Kemalism but what i do care about is when people insult the founder and freedom fighter of the Turkish republic.
And Atatürk didnt view religion (Islam) as an obstacle but more the chain that the state (in the name of said religion) did.
For example before DITIP and the religious government structures Hocas could basically tell the people in the villages what they want.
For example in many villages and cities no one did any kind of photos because Hocas said that it is "Haram".
Like always Islam is not an obstacle to people but its "followers" are
(Basically people used the religion to justify bad things)

 

[Oublious]

other than the things Neil Degrasse Tyson explain in the video? he preached that questioning the world would eventionally lead to questioning the god so that critical thinking itself was bad.

if you speak Turkish you could type "akla ket vurmak" on google and you'll probably find his picture.
@Ceri islam is backwards, it became backwards because it's religion's nature to become backwards. Few weeks ago there was eid and like most Turkish families my family have sacrificed a cow in the islamic rules. It wasn't a pretty scene to watch. After the throat of the cow has been cut... it struggled on the ground for minutes in agony, breathing through it's throat, bleeding, rattling and when I said... "we're living in 21st century can't we just administer some anesthesia at least? " and they say "it's against the islamic rules" then I point my finger at the dying cow over there and say "is this not?" no answers.

Because their religion is perfect. There can be no reforms in it. If you talk of reform you talk of heresy. So there can be no progress. What's ironic is the current version of this "perfect book" this "unchangeable book" was written by the third Caliph osman I find that particularly amusing

and about headscarf, yes it is a political symbol for people to show off that they belong to the right wing. It has nothing to do with honor, virtue, or purity or piety.. I've banged more headscarved chicks than I could count. It's not any different than mussolini's black shirts.

I also met more headscarved atheists than you could imagine... they just wear it because either their family or their social position forces them to... or they find it actually sexy (I find it sexy)

Sorry, that man is babling about so much things and nothing he can compare it with Ghazzali. Stil i am waiting for a answer, that man is talking about much things. About Ghazzali he says 'An Islamic scholar named Hamid Al-Ghazali deemed Mathematics evil' you can't make it hard. Notice that you source claiming a lot off but no argument or evidence.

 

[KediKesenFare3]

I also don't endorse Atatürk and his ideology. In my eyes he is a person who lowers his own nation. We are not Europeans. We are Eurasians. He probably did not understand that. Anyway over time the number of people who are criticizing Atatürk will increase. That should not surprise anyone.

The question that I ask myself is: When will people realize that he was a Republican but not a Democrat?
He just republicanized the country. Atatürk didn't develope and consolidate democracy, the rule of law and the respect of human fundamental rights like religious freedom. Also he had some very bad qualities as a leader (eg his drunkenness). The fact that he drank alcohol does not bother me. The problem is: he died too early. I am convinced that he would have revised some of his views, if he had lived longer.

I have visited no Turkish school, so I'm not indoctrinated like many of you guys. That does not mean that I do not respect you all. You are good fellows. I like you and I am honored by your friendship. We just have different opinions in this case.

 

[LegionnairE]

what the fvck am I reading today

ANZACs that he fvcking KILLED erects his statues out of respect.
and my brilliant fellow Turk here thinks he lowered his country

I don't know what to say

 

[KediKesenFare3]

only in cultural terms

 

[BordoEnes]

Ottoman Empire was always a safe heaven from those who escape inqusition... people who'd be branded as heretics and burned in Europe could survive in Ottoman Empire by paying cizye. That had nothing to do with prosperity or harmony.

Progress of the Islamic world have been killed off by Ghazali long before Ottoman Empire even existed.

This is just a part of Neil Degrasse Tyson's speech that is relevant to our conversation.
It's not long, you should watch it.

After 1453 byzantine scholars flee to europe, by 1500s reinnassaince and reform movements begin taking shape, church starts losing power and that makes a domino effect into french revolution and spread of nationalism and by that time religious empires' coffins were sealed. There was NOTHING the Ottoman Empire could do. Those territories were sooner or later going to be lost.

Ottoman Empire's collapse and Turkey's creation was inevitable.

and it really blows my mind how someone can be stupid enough to talk about religious harmony after the arab revolt.

You know, "christendom" was a thing before WWI and WWII when christians countries butchered each other. They don't use that word outside sarcastic context anymore.

That was going to happen sooner or later, arab revolt was going to happen sooner or later. Nobody could stop that progress. Atatürk didn't start it he only gave it shape. He saw what must be done and he has done it.


You should appreciate even my insults

it tells you how wrong you are

which is the most important information in the world

That was actually i really enjoyable video to watch. Neil degrasse tyson is by far one of my favorite idols. during times of ignorance and doubt this man put me on the right road and way of thinking.

 

[mpk1988]

other than the things Neil Degrasse Tyson explain in the video? he preached that questioning the world would eventionally lead to questioning the god so that critical thinking itself was bad.

if you speak Turkish you could type "akla ket vurmak" on google and you'll probably find his picture.
@Ceri islam is backwards, it became backwards because it's religion's nature to become backwards. Few weeks ago there was eid and like most Turkish families my family have sacrificed a cow in the islamic rules. It wasn't a pretty scene to watch. After the throat of the cow has been cut... it struggled on the ground for minutes in agony, breathing through it's throat, bleeding, rattling and when I said... "we're living in 21st century can't we just administer some anesthesia at least? " and they say "it's against the islamic rules" then I point my finger at the dying cow over there and say "is this not?" no answers.

Because their religion is perfect. There can be no reforms in it. If you talk of reform you talk of heresy. So there can be no progress. What's ironic is the current version of this "perfect book" this "unchangeable book" was written by the third Caliph osman I find that particularly amusing

and about headscarf, yes it is a political symbol for people to show off that they belong to the right wing. It has nothing to do with honor, virtue, or purity or piety.. I've banged more headscarved chicks than I could count. It's not any different than mussolini's black shirts.

I also met more headscarved atheists than you could imagine... they just wear it because either their family or their social position forces them to... or they find it actually sexy (I find it sexy)

A man after my own heart.

 

[-SINAN-]

I have visited no Turkish school, so I'm not indoctrinated like many of you guys.

Yeap, seems like you have been indoctrinated by Mullahs.