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Turkish Naval Programs


Covered part might contain torpedo launcher plus L-UMTAS + Cirit launcher...
cirit.jpg

umtas.jpg

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Source
https://mavivatan.net/burak-sinifi-korvetler/
 
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It still irks me that we don't produce a single engine. In fact, it's beginning to bother me on daily basis. Does anyone else feel the urgency of this like me ?

I mean not even a single FAC boat, whatever the weight class...
 
It still irks me that we don't produce a single engine. In fact, it's beginning to bother me on daily basis. Does anyone else feel the urgency of this like me ?

I mean not even a single FAC boat, whatever the weight class...
Naval systems are more complicated than land based ones, this is valid for the engines .a naval engine is bound to run for weeks without any interruptions, at spiking variable loads (propeller surfacing-sudden load drops, sudden increases due to harsh weathers) thus it is not just easy to make one, while we even couldn't succeed a tank engine.
It is not just the engine but you need to make sure of multiple aspects, you may not mariner hear people calling it "engine" since from oil separators, cooling system to the end of propeller it is referred as "propulsion system" which includes oil separators, fire suppression systems vibration /acoustic isolators, transmission system, shaft (with propeller blade controlling hydraulics), shaft bearings (vibration isolators), stern tube-thrust bearing and finally the pitch controllable propeller.
beside achieving all these, despite of people usually consider ships as a "spacious asset to fit any kind of the engine", actually it is quite narrow and it is sometimes hard to fit 2 diesel engines side by side.
It is more critical to keep hands on spare part production, engine control software (which i believe is developed or being developed) and small machinery which is needed urgently in case of failure or in wartimes.
Moreover, there aren't any issues or embargoes regarding to the diesel marine engines.
FACs will going to use, probably, entirely gas turbines (COGAG/COGOG) which we are not intended to develop in short term.
 
Naval systems are more complicated than land based ones, this is valid for the engines .a naval engine is bound to run for weeks without any interruptions, at spiking variable loads (propeller surfacing-sudden load drops, sudden increases due to harsh weathers) thus it is not just easy to make one, while we even couldn't succeed a tank engine.
It is not just the engine but you need to make sure of multiple aspects, you may not mariner hear people calling it "engine" since from oil separators, cooling system to the end of propeller it is referred as "propulsion system" which includes oil separators, fire suppression systems vibration /acoustic isolators, transmission system, shaft (with propeller blade controlling hydraulics), shaft bearings (vibration isolators), stern tube-thrust bearing and finally the pitch controllable propeller.
beside achieving all these, despite of people usually consider ships as a "spacious asset to fit any kind of the engine", actually it is quite narrow and it is sometimes hard to fit 2 diesel engines side by side.
It is more critical to keep hands on spare part production, engine control software (which i believe is developed or being developed) and small machinery which is needed urgently in case of failure or in wartimes.
Moreover, there aren't any issues or embargoes regarding to the diesel marine engines.
FACs will going to use, probably, entirely gas turbines (COGAG/COGOG) which we are not intended to develop in short term.

I hear what you are saying. I really do.

But it also sounds like we're making the same mistake as with Altay. I just want you to imagine what it would be like to have TCG Anadolu sitting on the wharf/shipyard rusting away because we face an embargo on engines and she doesn't have one.

IMO we need to find an engine from non western country, medium quality or whatever and get local production rights. And take it from there, if we can produce the engine and it works 5-10 years then so be it. We can improve it in the next batches to last 10-15 years, and so on.

Needless to say the urgency I feel is probably shared by many. Why ?

1974, Johnson letter, you don't want to look back but ahead, I can understand that. But the lessons to be learned are in the past. Everytime we dig a bit deeper and discover more of the past is another reminder, nail on how our own nation and TSK fucked over our own patriots attempt to bring something to the table.

Baykar is (IMO) probably the first to kick TSK in the balls because TSK didn't get to say no to the conservative muslim guy who's a patriot.

Huaweis founder said "A country without a their own telecommunication foundation/system, is like a country without an army". Which would explain why Aselsan was founded and produced communication devices as some of the first things. The swiss comm product was in secret developed by former CIA operator, and was easily accessible for the CIA/US. Iran, Turkey were some of their costumers. Even though Iran didn't quite trust them.

I'm just saying don't f... expect there to be an engine, an embargo can hit us anytime.
 
I hear what you are saying. I really do.

But it also sounds like we're making the same mistake as with Altay. I just want you to imagine what it would be like to have TCG Anadolu sitting on the wharf/shipyard rusting away because we face an embargo on engines and she doesn't have one.

IMO we need to find an engine from non western country, medium quality or whatever and get local production rights. And take it from there, if we can produce the engine and it works 5-10 years then so be it. We can improve it in the next batches to last 10-15 years, and so on.

Needless to say the urgency I feel is probably shared by many. Why ?

1974, Johnson letter, you don't want to look back but ahead, I can understand that. But the lessons to be learned are in the past. Everytime we dig a bit deeper and discover more of the past is another reminder, nail on how our own nation and TSK fucked over our own patriots attempt to bring something to the table.

Baykar is (IMO) probably the first to kick TSK in the balls because TSK didn't get to say no to the conservative muslim guy who's a patriot.

Huaweis founder said "A country without a their own telecommunication foundation/system, is like a country without an army". Which would explain why Aselsan was founded and produced communication devices as some of the first things. The swiss comm product was in secret developed by former CIA operator, and was easily accessible for the CIA/US. Iran, Turkey were some of their costumers. Even though Iran didn't quite trust them.

I'm just saying don't f... expect there to be an engine, an embargo can hit us anytime.
We should rather focus on spare parts initially or licensed production from western countries if we can, considering most of navies prefer MTU engine as diesel engine and RENK transmission, and accounting Germans stance about Turkey this seems very unlikely but we can still give a try. I emphasize this again, without logistics an army wouldn't stand longer than a few weeks. This can be achieved in short term compared to of having an engine.
It is not just the engine, if we didn't get podded propellers for TCG Anadolu, she also would be laying on the keel as well, as i have said if they wanted to stop it they could do in too many ways. They are worried about the missiles, UAVs, radars on a vessel, not quite the engine or propulsion system.
Whom you call "non-western" their naval diesel engines are either trash or copy of an MTU engine (from licensed production of the original engine within their country). We could retrieve local production but it would harm existing partnerships.
The simplest way is following Korea's path, first establishing one strong -true and honest engine manufacturer and then signing a deal for licensed production. For this we should also present some commercial market to them, or a hub which they can use in middle east. Aselsan, Havelsan is true example but should we also note they were founded in 90s and we are harvesting the products now after 2010, we should have an engine factory but it should be planned in long term first aiming at auxiliary classes.
And if they embargoed us on the commercial engines ,or blocked us from utilizing them on naval platforms, since ships are not serially produced assets; it would take a month or two to replace the engine (on an existing platform) with a non western kind (assuming, especially the ones based on/stolen from MTU engines would be just fit).
 
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We should rather focus on spare parts initially or licensed production from western countries if we can, considering most of navies prefer MTU engine as diesel engine and RENK transmission, and accounting Germans stance about Turkey this seems very unlikely but we can still give a try.
It is not just the engine, if we didn't get podded propellers for TCG Anadolu, she also would be laying on the keel as well, as i have said if they wanted to stop it they could do in too many ways.
Whom you call "non-western" their naval diesel engines are either trash or copy of an MTU engine (from licensed production of the original engine within their country).
The simplest way is following Korea's path, first establishing one strong -true and honest engine manufacturer and then signing a deal for licensed production. For this we should also present some commercial market to them, or a hub which they can use in middle east.
And if they embargoed us on the commercial engines ,or blocked us from utilizing them on naval platforms, since ships are not serially produced assets; it would take a month or two to replace the engine (on an existing platform) with a non western kind (assuming, especially the ones based on/stealed from MTU engines would be just fit).

Yes, we need those spareparts too.

Reverse engineer transmission for study purpose, pick some old FAC or similar that we can spare and use these for testbed. Get some universities involved in this and create a study environment out of it as well. ( I truly believe that our reverse engineering will yield better results or at least more reliable data collection).

As you pointed out the MTU is the best, but they became that because they were the go to guys when you want engine, transmission etc. every vessel they build was another chance for them to improve on their products. And this will continue unless we break the cycle.
 

Unfortunately in turkish, but the guy is former office in TN and has personal experience with 76 mm.

He points out that the news about domestic 76 mm has resulted in the prices of Otomelara dropping (sounds familiar right). But the point is that we'll have to wait in line for delivery which is why it takes 24 month.

Seems MKE has been involved in producing parts since 2009, and increasing amount of parts every year afterwards.
 
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