Turkish FM Çavuşoğlu expose Turkey's expanionism.

[Kedikesenfare2]

Determine lands, islands and seas?

 

[Foinikas]

US, NATO, EU, Russia, China and the entire world supports Turkish position. No body cares about Greek's opinion on this matter.

Actually you are badly informed,USA,EU and international law is on Greece's side. China and Russia support us on this matter as well.

Are you saying that the entirety of Greece,should be Turkish and that it's "under occupation"?

 

[Akritas]

All of Greece is Turkish.....
What are you, a Kemalist, Islamist, Fascist-Greywolf?

 

[zartosht]

Turkish map includes a tiny piece of nw Iran that would supposedly be annexed and join turkey to nakhchivan

This is delusion trying to deflect from catastrophic economic problems.

Turkey so much as looks at 1 sqm of Iranian land the wrong way, and it would get cut down to half its size again once Iran allies with kurdish freedom fighters to liberate occupied eastern kurdistan

 

[dBSPL]

The borders between Turkiye and Iran are the oldest in the region and which was drawn without the influence and interference of foreign powers. There is no social problem between the two people. On the contrary, there is love and affection. Neither both country has a claim on the other's land. The land connection with Nakhchivan was realized through land swap. All other illustrations or representations are nonsense and have no official basis.

*

While our Iranian friends share their wet dreams here, they should also take into account how such dangerous ventures could explode in their hands in the past. The last time the dreams of this Kurdish state came to life this much, the Iranian army had to deal with this problem.

What happened in a similar period when world politics was so turbulent and open to risks?

In 1941, the Allied Powers, who wanted to help the Soviet Union, which was fighting with Nazi Germany, entered Iran.

With the entry of the Allies, the suppressed political aspirations became more evident. Under these conditions, Azeris established the Azerbaijan National Government in 1945 in an effort to get rid of cultural and political oppression. Although it initially presented itself as an autonomous government, it tried to declare independence. In the same period, the Kurds also established the Republic of Mahabad and these two structures signed an agreement between them.

In this event, which coincided with the beginning of the Cold War, support from other countries could not be obtained and an agreement was reached with the central government. They disarmed the Fedayeen groups while leaving Iran by making an agreement with the Soviet Union. Thus, in 1946, Iran took these lands back under its control.

*

If Iran is going to make its cooperation openly with this US-proxy and the narco terrorist organization, we can do nothing but wish them good luck.

 

[Kedikesenfare2]

There's not one neighbor of Turkey that could rival us in terms of military might - neither Greece nor Iran is a match. Sorry to burst your bubbles.

However, there's no border conflict with Iran whatsoever. Actually, the Iranian-Turkish border is one of the oldest unchanged lines ever drawn on a map worldwide. This is telling us a lot about our relationship with Iran.

Greece on the other hand is not only actively occupying islands that rightfully belong to Turkiye. They even break international treaties and agreements, building up military so close to our mainland that we can see it with the naked eye standing on the Turkish shore.

 

[Akritas]

Greece on the other hand is not only actively occupying islands that rightfully belong to Turkiye.

Which islands and with what condition?

They even break international treaties and agreements, building up military so close to our mainland that we can see it with the naked eye standing on the Turkish shore.

Again the same, every Turk must repeat the same and we respond appropriately.....

Dear Turks members, let us not go too far: as long as there is the Turkish Aegean Army, a big landing fleet, the two Turkish naval bases and two helicopter brigades in the wider region of Asia Minor, there is no case to demilitarize a Greek island, instead the equipment with new modern weapons systems will continue.

With "Mavi Vatan-type dogmas" and "Mîsâk-ı Millî national borders", as are constantly repeated by Turkish politicians, there is no case for normalization, let alone demilitarization of Greek territories that threatened by the Turkish armed forces.

The Turkish military threat is real, what is threatened is not demilitarized.

 

[dBSPL]

After the Turkish state signed the Mudros armistice agreement (end of the 1st World War) in 1918, the alliance forces continued to occupy the Turkish state, ignoring the agreement.

And finally, as a requirement of the Sykes-Picot secret agreement, they forced Turks for a liberation struggle by imposing the Sevres. The monarchy was overthrown, but Turks from the Balkans, and from Asia Minor established the republic under the leadership of Ghazi Atatürk.

Misaki Milli is the last decision taken in the last Ottoman parliament in 1920, and it is the set of principles that determine the borders of the Turkish state. Its content is available on the Internet in English. These decisions were later accepted exactly at the Sivas Congress (the beginning of the Turkish War of Independence). By its nature, it complies with Wilson's principles. It envisages the right of self-determination to peoples.

If it is desired to make a map in the light of the determined principles; As of 1920, a map appears as follows.

However, these borders could not be reached after the Turkish War of Independence.
-Hatay joined the country with a plebiscite.
-However, in the plebiscite of Western Thrace, Turkiye supported the region to remain in Greece due to the conditions at that time.
-The Cyprus problem, which England illegally occupied, never came to the fore, because the British used the Mosul problem and the straits problem as leverage.
-Batumi was also left to the Russians, in return the Bolsheviks supported the Turkish War of Independence.

Currently, our Misaki Milli is the lands we own.

The reason that reveals the principles of Misaki Milli is the map below.

This is not an imaginary map, it had been tried but defeated. Hundreds of thousands of Turkish civilians were subjected to massacres in these waves of occupation.

***

The concept of Mavi Vatan Blue Homeland is a doctrine covering the maritime jurisdiction areas (territorial waters, continental shelf and exclusive economic zone) declared by the Republic of Turkiye in the Black Sea, Mediterranean and Aegean; And In essence, it is an understanding that aims to increase the Turkish nation's interest in the seas and aims to advance our maritime.

Maps put forward in relation to the concept of the Blue Homeland respect and do not conflict with the 6-mile territorial sea of the Greek islands and the airspace of the Greek state.

 

[Foinikas]

Greece on the other hand is not only actively occupying islands that rightfully belong to Turkiye.

Ok,first things first:

Greece is not occupying any "Turkish" islands. And if you want to look at it historically,every single one of these islands and the coast of Asia Minor had been inhabited by Greeks for thousands of years. Way before the Seljuks even reached Caucasus. And had been inhabited by Greeks,until 1923 and onwards.

They even break international treaties and agreements, building up military so close to our mainland that we can see it with the naked eye standing on the Turkish shore.

Now back to the 20th century. Why Greece is actually NOT breaking any treaties. I'll post it again,just in case you guys can get it in your heads:

The demilitarization of the Greek islands of Limnos and Samothrace along with the demilitarization of the Dardanelles, the Sea of Marmara and the Bosporus, and the Turkish Imbros (Gokceada), Tenedos (Bozcaada) and Rabbit Islands (Tavcan), was originally provided for in the 1923 Lausanne Treaty on the Straits. This was annulled by the 1936 Montreux Treaty, which, as it categorically stated in its preamble, replaced in its entirety the aforementioned Lausanne Treaty.


Greece’s right to militarise Limnos and Samothrace was recognized by Turkey, in accordance with the letter sent to the Greek Prime Minister on 6 May 1936 by the Turkish Ambassador in Athens at the time, Roussen Esref, upon instructions from his Government. The Turkish government reiterated this position when the then Turkish Minister for Foreign Affairs, Rustu Aras, in his address to the Turkish National Assembly on the occasion of the ratification of the Montreux Treaty, unreservedly recognized Greece’s legal right to deploy troops on Limnos and Samothrace, with the following statement : “The provisions pertaining to the islands of Limnos and Samothrace, which belong to our neighbor and friendly country Greece and were demilitarized in application of the 1923 Lausanne Treaty, were also abolished by the new Montreux Treaty, which gives us great pleasure” (Gazette of the Minutes of the Turkish National Assembly, volume 12, July 31/1936, page 309). During the same period, Turkey gave similar assurances on this subject to the governments of interested third countries.

The status of Mytilene, Chios, Samos and Ikaria


The Lausanne Treaty makes no mention of these islands having been granted demilitarized status.


The Greek government simply commits to not establishing naval bases or fortifications there in accordance with Article 13 of the Treaty. More specifically, this article specifies that :


“With a view to ensuring the maintenance of peace, the Greek Government undertakes to observe the following restrictions in the islands of Mytilene, Chios, Samos and Nikaria:


• No naval base and no fortification will be established in the said islands.


• Greek military aircraft will be forbidden to fly over the territory of the Anatolian coast. Reciprocally, the Turkish Government will forbid their military aircraft to fly over the said islands.


• The Greek military forces in the said islands will be limited to the normal contingent called up for military service, which can be trained on the spot, as well as to a force of gendarmerie and police in proportion to the force of gendarmerie and police existing in the whole of the Greek territory”.


The Dodecanese islands were ceded to Greece in full sovereignty by the Paris Peace Treaty between Italy and the Allies in April 1947. The provisions of this Treaty provided for the demilitarization of these islands: “The above islands shall be demilitarized and shall remain so”. There is a National Guard presence on the Dodecanese islands, which has been declared in accordance with CFE provisions.


With regard to Turkish claims on the demilitarization of the Dodecanese islands, it should be noted that:


• Turkey is not a signatory state to this Treaty, which therefore constitutes a "res inter alios acta" for Turkey; i.e., an issue pertaining to others. According to Article 34 of the Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties, a treaty does not create obligations or rights for third countries.


• The demilitarized status of the Dodecanese islands was imposed after the decisive intervention of the Soviet Union and echoes Moscow’s political intentions at that point in time. It should, however, be noted that demilitarized status lost its raison d’être with the creation of NATO and the Warsaw Pact, as incompatible with countries’ participation in military alliances. Against this backdrop, demilitarized status ceased to apply to the Italian islands of Pantelaria, Lampedusa, Lampione and Linosa, as well as to West Germany on the one hand and Bulgaria, Romania, East Germany, Hungary and Finland on the other.



Now,tell me @Kedikesenfare2 are you actually afraid of Greece? Are you afraid that Greece will invade Turkey from the islands? Enough with this hypocrisy. You know very well,that we have no intention and capability to invade Turkey.


And you know very well,that you have heavy forces on the coast of Asia Minor and with all the talk about islands and EEZ,that only makes it logical for us to want to maintain even these small garissons.

The concept of Mavi Vatan Blue Homeland is a doctrine covering the maritime jurisdiction areas (territorial waters, continental shelf and exclusive economic zone) declared by the Republic of Turkiye in the Black Sea, Mediterranean and Aegean; And In essence, it is an understanding that aims to increase the Turkish nation's interest in the seas and aims to advance our maritime.

It's an expansionist propaganda. Your interests and aims,conflict with ours. You can't use two different methods to declare EEZ.

When I hear Erdogan,Akar and Cavusoglu say that Greece needs to "demilitarize the islands" it's like Stalin asking Finland to give land to the USSR because "it threatened Leningrad" and Hitler demanding Lebensraum.

 

[Akritas]

The concept of Mavi Vatan Blue Homeland is a doctrine covering the maritime jurisdiction areas (territorial waters, continental shelf and exclusive economic zone) declared by the Republic of Turkiye in the Black Sea, Mediterranean and Aegean; And In essence, it is an understanding that aims to increase the Turkish nation's interest in the seas and aims to advance our maritime.

Maps put forward in relation to the concept of the Blue Homeland respect and do not conflict with the 6-mile territorial sea of the Greek islands and the airspace of the Greek state.

You are talking for a doctrine that covering the maritime jurisdiction areas (territorial waters, continental shelf and exclusive economic zone).

So, according the map that used from the Republic of Turkey, why the centre(some) and eastern Greek islands as well as the territorial of 6 miles, are under Turkish "domination" (blue color) ?
Is that conflict or no?
Of course it is, because Turkish map does not separate small or large islands, it considers everything Turkish, including their territorial waters.

Mavi Vatan doctrine is a neo-Kemalist dogma, created from the neo-kemalists navy officers , adopted from the Erdogan's goverment at 2019(after the illegal maritime agrement with LNA regime), in order to the cancelation of the effects of the treaty of Lausanne, which was forced on the Turks in 1923, represents a Turkish nationalist aspiration, which calls for Turkey to go back and influence politically and economically on the region which was given through the Ottoman empire and finaly ignored the maritime agreements and borders of the of the neighboring countries, such as Cyprus, Egypt, Israel and Greece.
In order not to talk too much and tire the neutral reader, Mavi Vatan doctrine is the definition of the Turkish institutional threat to the Greek islands.

 

[Kedikesenfare2]

Ok,first things first:

View attachment 860761

Greece is not occupying any "Turkish" islands. And if you want to look at it historically,every single one of these islands and the coast of Asia Minor had been inhabited by Greeks for thousands of years. Way before the Seljuks even reached Caucasus. And had been inhabited by Greeks,until 1923 and onwards.

View attachment 860762

View attachment 860763


View attachment 860764




Now back to the 20th century. Why Greece is actually NOT breaking any treaties. I'll post it again,just in case you guys can get it in your heads:

The demilitarization of the Greek islands of Limnos and Samothrace along with the demilitarization of the Dardanelles, the Sea of Marmara and the Bosporus, and the Turkish Imbros (Gokceada), Tenedos (Bozcaada) and Rabbit Islands (Tavcan), was originally provided for in the 1923 Lausanne Treaty on the Straits. This was annulled by the 1936 Montreux Treaty, which, as it categorically stated in its preamble, replaced in its entirety the aforementioned Lausanne Treaty.


Greece’s right to militarise Limnos and Samothrace was recognized by Turkey, in accordance with the letter sent to the Greek Prime Minister on 6 May 1936 by the Turkish Ambassador in Athens at the time, Roussen Esref, upon instructions from his Government. The Turkish government reiterated this position when the then Turkish Minister for Foreign Affairs, Rustu Aras, in his address to the Turkish National Assembly on the occasion of the ratification of the Montreux Treaty, unreservedly recognized Greece’s legal right to deploy troops on Limnos and Samothrace, with the following statement : “The provisions pertaining to the islands of Limnos and Samothrace, which belong to our neighbor and friendly country Greece and were demilitarized in application of the 1923 Lausanne Treaty, were also abolished by the new Montreux Treaty, which gives us great pleasure” (Gazette of the Minutes of the Turkish National Assembly, volume 12, July 31/1936, page 309). During the same period, Turkey gave similar assurances on this subject to the governments of interested third countries.

The status of Mytilene, Chios, Samos and Ikaria


The Lausanne Treaty makes no mention of these islands having been granted demilitarized status.


The Greek government simply commits to not establishing naval bases or fortifications there in accordance with Article 13 of the Treaty. More specifically, this article specifies that :


“With a view to ensuring the maintenance of peace, the Greek Government undertakes to observe the following restrictions in the islands of Mytilene, Chios, Samos and Nikaria:


• No naval base and no fortification will be established in the said islands.


• Greek military aircraft will be forbidden to fly over the territory of the Anatolian coast. Reciprocally, the Turkish Government will forbid their military aircraft to fly over the said islands.


• The Greek military forces in the said islands will be limited to the normal contingent called up for military service, which can be trained on the spot, as well as to a force of gendarmerie and police in proportion to the force of gendarmerie and police existing in the whole of the Greek territory”.


The Dodecanese islands were ceded to Greece in full sovereignty by the Paris Peace Treaty between Italy and the Allies in April 1947. The provisions of this Treaty provided for the demilitarization of these islands: “The above islands shall be demilitarized and shall remain so”. There is a National Guard presence on the Dodecanese islands, which has been declared in accordance with CFE provisions.


With regard to Turkish claims on the demilitarization of the Dodecanese islands, it should be noted that:


• Turkey is not a signatory state to this Treaty, which therefore constitutes a "res inter alios acta" for Turkey; i.e., an issue pertaining to others. According to Article 34 of the Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties, a treaty does not create obligations or rights for third countries.


• The demilitarized status of the Dodecanese islands was imposed after the decisive intervention of the Soviet Union and echoes Moscow’s political intentions at that point in time. It should, however, be noted that demilitarized status lost its raison d’être with the creation of NATO and the Warsaw Pact, as incompatible with countries’ participation in military alliances. Against this backdrop, demilitarized status ceased to apply to the Italian islands of Pantelaria, Lampedusa, Lampione and Linosa, as well as to West Germany on the one hand and Bulgaria, Romania, East Germany, Hungary and Finland on the other.



Now,tell me @Kedikesenfare2 are you actually afraid of Greece? Are you afraid that Greece will invade Turkey from the islands? Enough with this hypocrisy. You know very well,that we have no intention and capability to invade Turkey.


And you know very well,that you have heavy forces on the coast of Asia Minor and with all the talk about islands and EEZ,that only makes it logical for us to want to maintain even these small garissons.


It's an expansionist propaganda. Your interests and aims,conflict with ours. You can't use two different methods to declare EEZ.


View attachment 860768

When I hear Erdogan,Akar and Cavusoglu say that Greece needs to "demilitarize the islands" it's like Stalin asking Finland to give land to the USSR because "it threatened Leningrad" and Hitler demanding Lebensraum.

Sorry, dude but...

Modern Greeks ≠ Ancient Greeks

Genetically speaking, you're having zilch in common with the Greek population of the ancient times.

 

[Foinikas]

Sorry, dude but...

Modern Greeks ≠ Ancient Greeks

Genetically speaking, you're having zilch in common with the Greek population of the ancient times.

That's your trash arguement? That's all you can reply? Hadi,go watch Ertuğrul then.

 

[Kedikesenfare2]

That's your trash arguement? That's all you can reply? Hadi,go watch Ertuğrul then.

I know it hurts your feelings but it's true. There's no genetical evidence that connects modern-day Greeks with the ancient population of Greece/Asia Minor. You're living a lie. Sorry.

 

[Foinikas]

I know it hurts your feelings but it's true. There's no genetical evidence that connects modern-day Greeks with the ancient population of Greece/Asia Minor. You're living a lie. Sorry.

Half my lineage is from Asia Minor and the other half from Peloponesse. All Greeks.

 

[Akritas]

Sorry, dude but...

Modern Greeks ≠ Ancient Greeks

Genetically speaking, you're having zilch in common with the Greek population of the ancient times.

Although I am against the use of genetic science to determine today's ethnic identity, I am simply giving you studies that disprove you.....

Science | AAAS

www.science.org

DNA Testing Links Modern Greeks to Ancient Minoan and Mycenaean Ancestors

Recent DNA testing has revealed fresh insight into the genetic origins of today’s Greek population, who do, in fact, have more in common with their mythic ancestors than experts previously be…

observer.com